Posted on 03/16/2002 6:42:19 AM PST by LarryLied
It's the most familiar symbol you can imagine, but ponder for a moment how odd it is that Christians display an "emblem of suffering and shame," as the hymn says.
The cross reminds us that Jesus was executed as a common criminal, hardly the upbeat message a publicist might choose.
Yet two decades after Calvary, the Apostle Paul wrote, "Far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Galatians 6:14). Under this mysterious emblem, the early Christians vanquished the empire that had crucified Jesus.
The symbol holds 21st-century power. Two days after the World Trade Center attack, a rescue worker wept as he discovered a 20-foot cross -- two fused metal beams buried in the rubble. This cross provided comfort to impromptu worshippers amid the mourning.
Yet the cross is spurned by Christian liberals Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker. They find belief in Jesus' saving death repellent, saying this sanctifies violence and submission to evil.
"To say that Jesus' executioners did what was historically necessary for salvation is to say that state terrorism is a good thing, that torture and murder are the will of God," they say in their book Proverbs of Ashes (Beacon).
Brock, a Harvard Divinity researcher, has chaired the joint global ministries board of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and United Church of Christ, and was a theology speaker at the Disciples's national assembly last year. Parker is a United Methodist Church minister and president of the Unitarian Universalist seminary in Berkeley, Calif.
Roman Catholic leftist John Dominic Crossan has joined in, hailing the authors' attack upon what he considers "the most unfortunately successful idea in the history of Christian thought." And the current Unitarian Universalist magazine features Brock and Parker in a cover story headlined "Violence and Doctrine: How Christianity Twists the Meaning of Jesus' Death."
"Perfect . . . sacrifice"
By contrast, another current author joins Paul in glorying in the cross. Fleming Rutledge, a traveling Episcopal preacher who lives in Port Chester, N.Y., embraces the Book of Common Prayer's Communion affirmation that Jesus Christ made "a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world."
Rutledge has collected seasonal meditations in her book The Undoing of Death (Eerdmans). Though sermons often fall flat on the printed page, this book is unusually readable devotional fare.
She believes the cross is misunderstood if we forget that Jesus the Son is equally God along with the Father (which liberal Christians and Unitarians deny). And some conservatives portray "a wrathful Father piling condemnation on an innocent, victimized Son. This mistake must be strenuously resisted," she writes.
The heart of the atoning sacrifice on the cross, Rutledge insists, is "the fact that the Father's will and the Son's will are one. This is an action that the Father and the Son are taking together." They are "accomplishing our redemption together," acting in united love for humanity.
However, her Good Friday sermons worry less about such liberal or conservative theories than about people's inclination to pretend their sins aren't all that bad so they have no need of a Savior.
"We do not like to believe that we deserve condemnation," she says.
Some seek to justify themselves by the kind of people they like to think they are -- more moral, sensitive, loving, intelligent, thoughtful, patriotic, fashionable or socially aware than others. Then there's the opposite, people who tell themselves they're more misunderstood, long-suffering and deserving than anyone else.
But Christianity says we're all sinners in the light of God's holiness. Despite sin, Rutledge believes, when Christ looks at someone "he sees a person that he loves more than life, more than glory, more than power, more than riches, more than divinity itself."
She also contends that the cross shows us Christianity is true. The reason? Mere human imagination or wishful thinking would never have concocted "a despised and rejected Messiah."
Who was denegrading who with the dog comment 911?
I'll gladly expound on the theology of Calvinism, but I *do* reserve the right to condemn Hell even as I preach approvingly of Heaven.
If Arminianism is a Jesuit-designed Artificial Construct, specifically fabricated for the express purpose of perverting and subverting the Biblical Purity of the Reformation Church, then the presentation of that FACT is not "bashing". Historical Facts are not a "bash"; they are historical facts.
As for you Jean - please feel free to join him, I am willing to listen with an open mind - which is precisely what I said originally.
Okay, here we go:
TOTAL DEPRAVITY -- The Biblical Doctrine of Man
***Psalm 51: 5 -- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
***Psalm 58: 3 -- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
***Ecclesiastes 9: 3 -- This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
***Isaiah 64: 6 -- For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
***John 14: 17a -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him,
***Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
***1 Corinthians 12: 3 -- Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
***2 Corinthians 3: 5 -- Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION -- The Biblical Doctrine of Predestination
***John 6: 44 -- No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
***John 15: 16, 19 -- You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.... If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
***Acts 13: 48 -- When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
***Romans 8: 28 - 30 -- And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
***Romans 9: 10 - 11 -- And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
***Romans 11: 4 - 5 -- But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal”. In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
***Ephesians 1: 3 - 5, 11 -- Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
***Ephesians 2: 10 -- For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
***1 Thessalonians 1: 4 - 5 -- Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
***2 Thessalonians 2: 13 -- But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
***2 Timothy 1: 9 -- who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
***2 Timothy 2: 10 -- For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
***Hebrews 9: 15 -- For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
***James 1: 18 -- In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
LIMITED REDEMPTION -- The Biblical Doctrine of Atonement
***Matthew 11: 27 -- All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
***Matthew 25: 32 - 34 -- All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
***John 5: 21 -- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
***John 8: 42 - 43, 47 -- Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.
***John 10: 14 - 15, 24 - 26 -- I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.... The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
***John 12: 37 - 40 -- But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their hearts, And be converted and I heal them.
***John 17: 1 - 2,6, 9 -- Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.... I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.... I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
***John 18: 37 -- Therefore Pilate said to Him, So You are a king? Jesus answered, You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.
***Romans 9: 15 - 24 -- For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstarte my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, Why did you make me like this, will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
***Romans 11: 7 - 8 -- What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day
***1 Corinthians 1: 23 - 24 -- But we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
***2 Corinthians 4: 3 -- And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
***Titus 2: 13 - 14 -- looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
***1 Peter 2: 7 - 9 -- This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very cornerstone, and, A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. But you are A Chosen Race, A Royal Preisthood, A Holy Nation, A People For God's Own Possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
***1 John 4: 6 -- We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
***Revelation 13: 7 - 8 -- It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
***Revelation 17: 8 -- The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE -- The Biblical Doctrine of Regeneration
***Psalm 139: 16 -- Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
***Proverbs 21: 1 -- THE king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
***Jeremiah 10: 23 -- I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
***John 6: 37 -- All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
***John 10: 4 - 5, 8 -- When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.... All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
***1 Corinthians 3: 5 - 7 -- What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
***1 Corinthians 15: 10 -- But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
***Galatians 2: 8 -- For He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles.
***Philippians 2: 13 -- For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
***James 4: 13 - 15 -- Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.
PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS -- The Biblical Doctrine of Perseverance
***Psalms 37: 28 -- For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Also the entire ***Book of Psalms, particularly psalms 23 - 33, 84, 89, 94, 121, 125; portions of Proverbs, etc.
***John 5: 24 -- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
***John 6: 38 - 40 -- For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
***John 10: 27 - 30 -- My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
***Romans 8: 1 -2 -- THEREFORE there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
***Romans 8: 15 - 17 -- For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, Abba! Father! The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
***Romans 8: 37 - 39 -- But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
***Romans 11: 26 - 29 -- And so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
***1 Corinthians 1: 4 - 8 -- I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
***Philippians 1: 6 -- For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
***Colossians 2: 13 - 14 -- When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
***Hebrews 7: 25 -- Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
***Hebrews 10: 14 -- For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
***Hebrews 10: 39 -- But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
***1 Peter 1: 3 - 5 -- Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
***1 John 2: 1 -- My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
***1 John 2: 19 -- They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
***1 John 5: 11 - 13 -- And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
***Jude 24 - 25 -- Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
'Nuff Said.
OP - thanks - Give a while to digest that post - fair enough?
and by saying so youve tried to draw me closer to Christ how?
sell me on Calvinism without bashing Arminians -
I am not a sales man...And it is clear to me that you do not really want the dogs messing up your yard.
We believe that no man can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws him...I must say I have a similar feeling about truth..if ears are closed they will not hear it...it is just shouting into the wind Rev
I believe you are saved..I believe that you love the Lord..and I also believe you are scared to death of hearing what we have to say..
see - were talking - group hug
Mom has more faith in you than I do. I can't draw you close to Christ and if you were a Christian that would be about the first thing you'd know. Give us your testimony and we'll decide for ourselves.
I do not think that is appropriate. There is no litmus test here..if one calls the name of Christ they are saved IMHO..I have know Rev for a long time.I have considered him a brother..
Rev, I have never personally attacked you in the first place (although I must respectfully decline the offer of a "group hug". My cat is permitted to hug me all he likes, but Humans I screen carefully).
Think about it a second. If I am convinced that a given soteriological cosmology is theological crack-cocaine (on the very testimony of the guys who invented the stuff!!), I've not going to hem and haw pretending I think it's made of sugar and spice and everything nice, and the recipe just needs a little tweaking. I'm going to call it poison because that is what I (on good evidence) believe it to be.
Nothing personal, just business.
actually not - Im fascinated though, and just like you - Im probing my own belief system. Look - I am a sinner all day long - I admit it, but with the grace of Jesus Christ and handfull of prayer and the love of my wife (who is a Pastor in our denom) i'm calming down and finally finding a personal relationship with Christ. Behind me are my wilder days. Where that takes me I dont know - point being - Ive found the entrance to the path - just like you - but I dont need someone standing at the gate with a louisville slugger which is what the case has been - you yourself acknowledged as much in freepmail.
Not all Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or Arminian Protestants are non-Christians; some are just confused Christians who have simply not been corrected (yet) as to the Heretical positions which they do hold. In such cases, we should charitably refrain from assuming them to be Non-Christians (although I don't advise that we assume that they are Christians, either). In short, we withhold judgment.
It's a tricky distinction, but I have always found that the Church's definition of "Fatal" heresy provides a pretty good delineation.
what you frankly "decide" is of no interest to me. Thats between me and God
I'll share my testimony if youre interested - but I will not stand awaiting your judgement as to its authenticity.
ToGen.1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
American Heritage Dictionary
1. make
2.Image
3.likeness
4.tangible
make v. made, mak·ing, makes. v. –tr. 1. To cause to exist or happen; bring about; create: made problems for him; making a commotion. 2. To bring into existence by shaping, modifying, or putting together material; construct: make a dress; made a wall of stones. 3. To form by assembling individuals or constituents: make a quorum.
To im·age, n. 1. A reproduction of the form of a person or an object, especially a sculptured likeness. 2. Physics. An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction of an object formed by a lens or mirror. 3. One that closely or exactly resembles another; a double: He is the image of his uncle.
An image is something that that is -
likeness n. 1. The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance. 2. An imitative appearance; a semblance. 3. A pictorial, graphic, or sculptured representation of something; an image.
tan·gi·ble adj. 1. a. Discernible by the touch; palpable: a tangible roughness of the skin. b. Possible to touch. c. Possible to be treated as fact; real or concrete: tangible evidence.
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