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The Mass of Vatican II
Catholic Dossier ^ | REV. JOSEPH FESSIO S.J.

Posted on 05/01/2002 6:48:29 PM PDT by nickcarraway

The Mass of Vatican II


With regard to the Mass we have now two extremes and a moderate position. One extreme position is the kind of informal Mass, all in English, facing the people, with contemporary music, which does not at all correspond with what the Council had in mind. But it is legitimate, it is permitted; it is not wrong. And we have on the other extreme those who have returned, with permission, to the Mass of 1962 and, as others have noted, it is thriving and growing. But it is not what the Council itself specifically had in mind, although it is the Mass of the ages. Then you have the moderates.

Rev. Joseph Fessio, S.J.

This essay is based on a lecture on the liturgy given by Father Fessio in May, 1999.

The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, was one of two documents issued on the same day, December 4, 1963, the first two documents issued by the Second Vatican Council. The other document, Inter Mirifica, is on social communication. Sacrosanctum Concilium is one of the most important documents of the Council, one that has been the least understood and, I believe, has wrought the most havoc — not by having been fulfilled — but by having been ignored or misinterpreted.

Now there should be no argument about the central intent of the Council concerning the liturgy. The Council actually spells out its intent, in paragraph 14 of Sacrosanctum Concilium: “Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations, which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy.” The key words here are “full, conscious, and active participation.” The Latin for “active participation” is actuosa participatio.

I did a little research into previous uses of that expression in papal and other ecclesial documents. The first papal usage was in 1903 by Pope St. Pius X, whose motto was “Omnia Instaurare in Christo” (To restore all things in Christ). He considered himself a pope of renewal. He was elected in August of 1903 and in November, he issued one of the first documents of his pontificate, a motu proprio called Tra Le Solicitudini, that is, “Among the Concerns.” This was a document on the renewal of sacred music. In it, the Holy Father states, “In order that the faithful may more actively participate in the sacred liturgy, let them be once again made to sing Gregorian Chant as a congregation.”

That’s what the term “active participation” meant when it was first used in a papal document. But it had been used ten years earlier in another document, issued by Pius X before he was pope. He was the patriarch of Venice, and the document — as it turns out — was actually written by a Jesuit, with the wonderful name of Angelo dei Santi (“angel of the saints”). Sounds like a fictitious name.

In any case, the first use of actuosa participatio, i.e., active participation, referred explicitly and exclusively to the restoration of the congregational singing of Gregorian Chant. In 1928, Pope Pius XI reiterated the point in his Apostolic Letter, Divini Cultus. Nineteen years after that, in the Magna Carta of liturgical reform, Mediator Dei, issued by Pius XII, the same term was used with the same meaning. So until the Second Vatican Council, the term “active participation” referred exclusively to the singing of Gregorian Chant by the people.

Inovations Unless the Good of the Church Requires Them

But back to the Council. In the same paragraph of Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 14, the Council continues: “In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else.” So the Council itself defines the primary aim of liturgical renewal: full, conscious and active participation. How does the Council initially intend for the aim to be achieved? That, also, is not something we have to guess at or speculate on: “And, therefore, pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it by means of the necessary instruction in all their pastoral work.” The Council’s idea is clear: the liturgy is to be renewed by promoting more active participation through the means of greater education. Nothing whatsoever is said here about any kind of changes or reform of the rite itself. Later, when changes are discussed, the Council states in paragraph 23: “There must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them.” So no changes unless there is a real, proven, demonstrable need.

Paragraph 23 continues: “And care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.” Organic growth — like a plant, a flower, a tree — not something constructed by an intellectual elite, not things fabricated and tacked on, or brought back from ten centuries ago, or fifteen centuries ago, but an organic growth. That’s what the Council itself said.

Paragraph 48 begins the chapter on the Mass. And the title of this chapter is interesting. It’s not called “The Eucharist” or “The Mass”; it’s called “The Most Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist.” Even in the chapter title, you have the sense that what’s important is mystery, sacredness, awe, the transcendence of God.

Paragraph 48 returns to the theme of greater awareness, a greater knowledge of the faithful, in order that they might enter more fully into the mysteries celebrated: “For this reason the Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at the mystery of faith should not be there as strangers or silent spectators. On the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers, they should take part in the sacred action conscious of what they are doing with devotion and full collaboration.” Then, in paragraph 49, the document says, “For this reason the sacred Council, having in mind those Masses which are celebrated with assistance of the faithful, especially on Sundays and Feasts of Obligation, has made the following decrees in order that the sacrifice of the Mass, even in the ritual forms of its celebration, may become pastorally efficacious in the fullest degree.”

Paragraphs 50 to 58 contain nine specific changes the Council had in mind for the renewal of the liturgy. But before we consider them, we must recall that when the Council made these proposals, it didn’t dream them up overnight. Although this was the first document issued at the Council, it was not issued without long preparation. The modern liturgical movement began in the middle of the 19th century. It was given great impetus by Pius X himself, in the beginning of the 20th century, and by years of study, prayer, and liturgical congresses during the first half of the century. In fact, after Mediator Dei in 1947, there were seven international liturgical conferences, attended by liturgical experts, by pastors and by Roman officials. If you read the minutes of those meetings and the concrete proposals they made, you will see that what the Council outlines here is the fruit of those meetings. This is really the distillation of the prayer and reflection that was the culmination of the liturgical movement, which had existed for over a century prior to the Council.

Nine Proposals

What are the nine liturgical proposals, or the nine liturgical mandates, of the Council? Paragraph 50 says the rites are to be simplified and those things that have been duplicated with the passage of time or added with little advantage, are to be discarded. And, after the Council, this reform did take place in many ways. I think it took place to a much greater degree than the Council intended, but there are certain simplifications in the Mass that the Council clearly intended.

Paragraph 51: The treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more fully. That has been accomplished by a greater number of readings from the Bible interspersed throughout the liturgical cycle, both in the Sunday and weekday cycles. Now, especially if you attend daily Mass, you have a much richer fare, if you will — a much expanded selection of Biblical readings.

Paragraph 52 says: “The homily is to be highly esteemed as part of the Liturgy itself.” The Council called for a greater effort to have good homilies and I think the effort has been made. Whether the homilies are better or not, you can judge for yourselves. Paragraph 53 says that the Common Prayer or Prayer of the Faithful should be restored, and that’s been done, too.

Paragraph 54 is a key paragraph: “In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue.” What did the Council have in mind? Let’s continue: “This is to apply in the first place, to the readings and to the Common Prayer. But also as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people.” Yet it goes on to say, “Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass” — (that is, the unchanging parts, the parts that are there every day) — “which pertain to them.”

So, the Council did not abolish Latin in the liturgy. The Council permitted the vernacular in certain limited ways, but clearly understood that the fixed parts of the Mass would remain in Latin. Again, I am just telling you what the Council said.

Paragraph 55 discusses receiving Communion, if possible, from hosts consecrated at the Mass in which you participate. That is often done or attempted in many parishes today, but it is difficult to do in a precise way. It’s hard to calculate the exact number of hosts you will need. Also, you have to keep some hosts in the Tabernacle for the sick and for adoration. The Council also permits Communion under both species here, but under very limited circumstances. For example, “to the newly ordained in the Mass of the Sacred Ordination, or the newly professed in the Mass of Profession, and the newly baptized in the Mass which follows baptism.” The Council itself did not call for offering both species to all the faithful all the time, but it did grant limited permission for it.

Paragraph 56 says that there are two parts of the Liturgy, the Word and the Eucharist, and that a pastor should insistently teach the faithful to take part in the entire Mass, especially on Sundays and Feasts of Obligation. That is, to consider the first part of the Mass, the Table of the Word, as a significant and essential part of the Mass, so you don’t think you have gone to Mass just by coming after the Offertory and being there for the Consecration and Communion.

Paragraph 57 states that concelebration should be permitted; paragraph 58, that a new rite for concelebration is to be drawn up.

That is the sum total of the nine mandates of the Council for change in the ritual itself, although there are a few other pertinent paragraphs to mention here.

In paragraph 112, in which the Council speaks specifically of music, we read: “The musical tradition of the Universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art.” That is a stupendous and shocking statement; the Council actually says that the Church’s music is a treasure of art greater than any other treasure of art she has. Think about that. Think about Chartres Cathedral. Think about the Pieta. Think about Da Vinci’s Last Supper. Think of all the crucifixes from Catalonia in Spain, and all the Church architecture and art and paintings and sculpture. The Council boldly says that the Church’s musical tradition is a treasure of inestimable value greater than any other art.

But the Council would be remiss in making such a shocking statement without giving a reason for it: “The main reason for this preeminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy.” What that means is this: it’s wonderful to have a beautiful church, stained glass windows, statues, a noble crucifix, prayerful architecture that lift your heart up to God. But those are all surroundings of the Mass. It’s the “worship environment,” as they would say today. But it’s not the Mass itself. The Council says that when the Mass itself is set to music, that’s what ennobles music, which, itself, enhances the Mass; and that’s what makes the musical tradition the most precious tradition of the Church.

Notice, however, that the Council implies what many Church documents have said explicitly — that the most perfect form of music at Mass is not the hymns, the so-called “Gathering hymn” and its antithesis — I guess you would call it the “Scattering hymn” — at the end. The most appropriate use of music at Mass, as seen by Church tradition and reaffirmed by the Council, is singing the Mass itself: the Kyrie, the Agnus Dei, the Sanctus, the Acclamations, the Alleluias and so on. Again, this isn’t Father Fessio’s pet theory; this is what the Council actually says. Paragraph 112 adds, “Sacred music is to be considered the more holy in proportion as it is the more closely connected with the liturgical action itself.” This reinforces my point.

Paragraph 114 adds: “The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care.” Then in paragraph 116 we find another shocker: “The Church acknowledges Gregorian Chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy. Therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.” That’s what the Council actually said. If you are in a parish which prides itself on living the spirit of Vatican II, then you should be singing Gregorian chant at your parish. And if you’re not singing the Gregorian Chant, you’re not following the specific mandate of the Second Vatican Council.

Now, just a little footnote on the Gregorian Chant. In reflecting on these things about Church music, I began to think about the Psalms a few years back. And a very obvious idea suddenly struck me. Why it didn’t come earlier I don’t know, but the fact is that the Psalms are songs. Every one of the 150 Psalms is meant to be sung; and was sung by the Jews. When this thought came to me, I immediately called a friend, a rabbi in San Francisco who runs the Hebrew School, and I asked, “Do you sing the Psalms at your synagogue?” “Well, no, we recite them,” he said. “Do you know what they sounded like when they were sung in the Old Testament times and the time of Jesus and the Apostles?” I asked. He said, “No, but why don’t you call this company in Upstate New York. They publish Hebrew music, and they may know.”

So, I called the company and they said, “We don’t know; call 1-800-JUDAISM.” So I did. And I got an information center for Jewish traditions, and they didn’t know either. But they said, “You call this music teacher in Manhattan. He will know.” So, I called this wonderful rabbi in Manhattan and we had a long conversation. At the end, I said, “I want to bring some focus to this, can you give me any idea what it sounded like when Jesus and his Apostles sang the Psalms?” He said, “Of course, Father. It sounded like Gregorian Chant. You got it from us.”

I was amazed. I called Professor William Mart, a Professor of Music at Stanford University and a friend. I said, “Bill, is this true?” He said, “Yes. The Psalm tones have their roots in ancient Jewish hymnody and psalmody.” So, you know something? If you sing the Psalms at Mass with the Gregorian tones, you are as close as you can get to praying with Jesus and Mary. They sang the Psalms in tones that have come down to us today in Gregorian Chant.

So, the Council isn’t calling us back to some medieval practice, those “horrible” medieval times, the “terrible” Middle Ages, when they knew so little about liturgy that all they could do was build a Chartres Cathedral. (When I see cathedrals and churches built that have a tenth of the beauty of Notre Dame de Paris, then I will say that the liturgists have the right to speak. Until then, they have no right to speak about beauty in the liturgy.) But my point is that at the time of Notre Dame de Paris in the 13th century, the Psalms tones were already over a thousand years old. They are called Gregorian after Pope Gregory I, who reigned from 590 to 604. But they were already a thousand years old when he reigned. He didn’t invent Gregorian chant; he reorganized and codified it and helped to establish musical schools to sing it and teach it. It was a reform; it wasn’t an invention. Thus, the Council really calls us back to an unbroken tradition of truly sacred music and gives such music pride of place.

The last thing I want to quote from the Council is paragraph 128, which talks about sacred art and sacred furnishings: “Along with the revisions of liturgical books . . . there is to be an earlier revision of the canons and ecclesiastical statutes which govern the provisions of material things involved in sacred worship. These laws refer especially to the worthy and well-planned construction of sacred buildings, the shape and construction of altars, the nobility, placing and safety of the Eucharistic tabernacle, the dignity and suitability of the baptistery . . .” and so on.

What the Council Didn’t Say

That’s essentially what the Second Vatican Council actually said about the renewal of the liturgy. Let me tell you what it did not say. The Council did not say that tabernacles should be moved from their central location to some other location. In fact, it specifically said we should be concerned about the worthy and dignified placing of the tabernacle. The Council did not say that Mass should be celebrated facing the people. That is not in Vatican II; it is not mentioned. It is not even raised in the documents that record the formation of the Constitution on the Liturgy; it didn’t come up. Mass facing the people is a not requirement of Vatican II; it is not in the spirit of Vatican II; it is definitely not in the letter of Vatican II. It is something introduced in 1969.

And, by the way, never in the history of the Church, East or West, was there a tradition of celebrating Mass facing the people. Never, ever, until 1969. It happened occasionally in Germany, in between the wars; it was done sometimes at the castle where Romano Guardini would have his group of students meet; it was done in Austria near Vienna by Pius Parsch in a special church, in what he called a “liturgical Mass.” That’s an odd expression, a “liturgical Mass.” The Mass is the liturgy.

But in any event, I can say without fear of contradiction from anyone who knows the facts that there is simply no tradition whatsoever, in the history of the Church, of Mass facing the people. Now, is it a sin? No. Is it wrong? No. Is it permitted? Yes. It is required? Not at all. In fact in the Latin Roman Missal, which is the typical edition that all the translations of the Missal are based on (not always translated properly, but at least based on it) the rubrics actually presuppose the Mass facing East, the Mass facing the Lord.

Now, for the first 25 years of my priesthood, I celebrated Mass like you see it when you go to a typical parish: in English, facing the people. It can be done reverently; I’ve seen it done reverently; I’ve tried to do it reverently myself. But the last three years, after study and reflection, I’ve changed. I actually think the Mass facing the people is a mistake. But, even if it’s not, at least this much we can say: there is no permission required to say Mass facing God, facing the tabernacle, facing East, facing with the people. And it should be given equal rights, it seems to me, with Mass facing the people. It’s been around for 1800 years at least, and it should be allowed to continue. I happen to think it’s symbolically richer.

It’s true that when the priest faces the people for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice, there may be a sense of greater unity as a community. But there is also a danger of the priest being the performer and you being the spectator — precisely what the Council did not want: priest performers and congregational spectators. But there is something more problematic. You can see it, perhaps, by contrasting Mass facing the people with Mass facing East or facing the Lord. I don’t say Mass “with my back to the people” anymore than Patton went through Germany with his “back to the soldiers.” Patton led the Third Army across Germany and they followed him to achieve a goal. The Mass is part of the Pilgrim Church on the way to our goal, our heavenly homeland. This world is not our heavenly homeland. We don’t sit around in a circle and look at each other. We want to look with each other and with the priest towards the rising sun, the rays of grace, where the Son will come again in glory on the clouds.

And so, in Mass celebrated in the traditional way, the priest does face the people when he speaks on God’s behalf to proclaim the Word and explain it. And he does face the people when he receives their gifts. And then he turns to face with the people and to offer those gifts up to our common Father, praying that the Holy Spirit will come down and transform those gifts into the Body and Blood of Christ. And when that most sacred act takes place, the priest turns to offer the gifts back to the people. I think that is much more dramatic. Whether I am right or not, all I’m asking is a right to exist. If not peaceful coexistence, at least coexistence.

Now strange as it may appear, there is absolutely no permission required to say Mass facing East. The Pope does it every morning in his chapel. But there is such a taboo against it that most pastors would be afraid to do it for fear they would be exiled to some lowly parish.

The Council also said nothing about moving the Tabernacle. It said nothing about removing altar rails. It said nothing about taking out kneelers. It said nothing about turning the altar around. It said nothing about multiple canons. That, too, is an invention; a pure invention.

There has never been in the Church a choice of Eucharistic prayers at a given ceremony or a given Church. In the East, there were two main Eucharistic prayers. Generally, they were regionally different, or used on different feasts. But in the Roman rite, the Latin rite, there has always been one Eucharistic prayer. It was different in Milan, slightly; it was different in Spain, slightly, the Mozarabic rite; and it was different in a few other places — the Dominican Order and some others after the Middle Ages. But there was only one canon, the Eucharistic Prayer, the Roman canon. I happen to think it is the best. Not only because of the fact that when I am saying it I am uniting myself with what was actually said by the Fathers, and doctors, and saints, and mystics of the Church for hundreds of years (more than a thousand years) — but because I think it is richer.

One problem, both at the time of the Council and after, is rationalism, which the Holy Father has spoken against. This is the idea that we can do it all with our own minds. The liturgists after the Council tried to construct a more perfect liturgy. But you know something? When you’ve grown up in a house and a room is added on and a story added on, a garage is added on, it may not be architecturally perfect, but it’s your home. To destroy it and try to construct a new one out of steel and glass and tile because that’s the modern idea, is not the way you live a human life. But that’s what’s happened to the liturgy.

Look at the other canons. First of all, when I celebrate Mass with the Roman Canon, I’ve often had people come up and say, “What canon was that, Father?” I say, “Well, that was the Roman Canon, the one that has been used for about 1600 years.” “Oh, I haven’t heard that.” Generally, you get Canon Two. Why? Because it’s the shortest. So, you can spend all kinds of time with singing, and the commentators explaining things, and a long homily, with big processions and greeters coming in and whatever else. But for the Sacrifice of the Mass, the attitude seems to be “Let’s get that over as soon as we can with Canon Two.”

Now, where did Canon Two come from? From what’s called the Canon of Hyppolytus, composed by a theologian who became a heretic, later was reconciled to the Church and died a martyr. Around the year 215, he wrote an outline of how Mass was celebrated in Rome. It was probably never used as a liturgical text because in the early days of the Church there was no final, written formalization of the liturgy, so this was an outline to be used by the celebrant.

Thus, the Canon of Hyppolytus was perhaps never used as a canon. If it was, it ceased being used at least 1600 years ago. Yet from the Council, which says changes ought to come through organic growth and there should be no changes unless necessary, we come to liturgists saying, “Oh, let’s pull this thing out of the third century and plug it back into the twentieth.” That’s not organic growth; that’s archeologism, specifically criticized by Pius XII in Mediator Dei.

The Third Canon was entirely made up. There has never been a canon like the Third Canon in the history of the Church, except in bits and pieces. Father Vagaggini, with the help of Father Bouyer, I believe, actually constructed it using their knowledge of liturgical history, which was enormous. But they totally invented the canon. It would be like taking piece of a carrot, a piece of a tomato, a piece of a peach and a piece of some tree, then putting them together and saying, “Well, you see that? It’s organic.” But it’s not organic; it’s constructed.

Canon Four is based on an Eastern Egyptian canon, still used in the Eastern Church; and so, there is some justification for it. But it’s seldom used today because you can’t use it with any other prefaces; it has more or less dropped by the wayside.

The point is that the Council did not call for a multiplication of canons, and I think there are lots of other reasons for sticking with the Roman canon. Nor did the Council, as I mentioned, abolish Latin. It specifically mandated the retention of Latin and only permitted the use of the vernacular in certain circumstances. And, finally, the Council did not prohibit Gregorian Chant, as you might be led to think from its absence in your parishes. The Council actually prescribed Gregorian Chant to have pride of place.

Pope John Paul II Addresses the Bishops

So, that is what the Council actually said. I’ve been saying this now for several years. Because I’ve been saying it and other things, Archbishop Weakland has called me a “papal maximalist,” but a year and a few months ago I was with him at an all-day meeting in Chicago on the liturgy. It was a very congenial meeting, actually; there were eight or nine of us there. And towards the end, they were discussing a document, the Pope’s address to the bishops of the Northwest in 1998. Remember, in 1998 all the bishops of the United States went to Rome for their Ad Limina visit. For one whole year, as each group of bishops came, the Holy Father spoke to them on how to interpret the Second Vatican Council in a way that will lead us into the Third Millennium.

It happened that when the bishops from the Northwest came — from Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Montana and Idaho — the Holy Father spoke on the liturgy. Archbishop Weakland and others were not particularly happy with what the pope said. And so I took the occasion in the afternoon to say to Archbishop Weakland, “You know, Archbishop you’ve publicly called me a papal maximalist. You published an article in America magazine in which you used that title for me. But you know, I can’t help it. The Pope keeps agreeing with me.”

Here’s what the Pope said to the bishops of the Northwestern United States: “The two-thousandth anniversary of the birth of the Savior is a call to all Christ’s followers to seek a genuine conversion to God and a great advance to holiness. Since the Liturgy is such a central part of the Christian life, I wish today to consider some aspects of the liturgical renewal so vigorously promoted by the Second Vatican Council, as the prime agent of the wider renewal of Catholic life.” So, the Council itself wanted to renew Catholic life. And within that, it wanted to renew the liturgy. The Pope is saying here that as we look toward the year 2000, we must go back and see what the Council wanted for liturgical renewal, because that is the prime agent of the wider renewal of Catholic life.

He continues: “To look back over what has been done in the field of liturgical renewal since the Council is first to see many reasons for giving heartfelt thanks and praise to the Most Holy Trinity for the marvelous awareness which had developed among the faithful of their role and responsibility in the priestly work of Christ and his Church. It is also to realize that not all changes have always and everywhere been accompanied by the necessary explanation and catechesis. As a result, in some cases there has been a misunderstanding of the very nature of the Liturgy, leading to abuses, polarization, sometimes even grave scandal.”

The Pope generally speaks diplomatically, especially to bishops. These are pretty hard words, and this is the introduction, so obviously he’s going to give some guidelines for avoiding this polarization, this grave scandal and these abuses. He says, “After the experience of more than thirty years of liturgical renewal we are well placed to assess both the strengths and weaknesses of what has been done . . .” (listen carefully now)“ . . . in order more confidently to plot our course into the future, which God has in mind for His cherished people.” The Pope, here, speaks to our bishops, looking toward the new millennium and says, in effect, Here is what I think is the plan God has for all of his people as we move to the next millennium. And, specifically, here is the liturgical blueprint that, I, the Holy Father, believe we are to follow.

“The challenge now,” he continues, “is to move beyond whatever misunderstandings there have been and to reach the proper point of balance, especially by entering more deeply into the contemplative dimension of worship, which includes a sense of awe, reverence and adoration which are fundamental attitudes in our relationship with God.”

What does the Pope say we must do to restore balance? Enter more deeply into the contemplative dimension of worship. Can you contemplate when you’ve got drummers up in the sanctuary? Where do we find the sense of awe? Not in this “chatty” stuff at Mass: “Good morning, everybody.” Does that inspire a sense of awe? “Have a nice day.” The Pope mentions reverence and adoration. Standing is a sign of respect; but kneeling is a sign of adoration. The Pope says we must restore the sense of adoration.

The Pope says to the liturgists and the bishops, “The Eucharist gathers and builds the human community, but it is also ‘the worship of the Divine Majesty’.” That’s from Sacrosanctum Concilium, paragraph 33. He continues: “It is subjective in that it depends radically upon what the worshippers bring to it, but it is objective in that it transcends them as the priestly act of Christ himself to which he associates us, but which ultimately does not depend upon us.”

This is why it’s so important that liturgical law be respected: an objective act is taking place. “The priest, who is the servant of the liturgy and not its inventor or producer, has a particular responsibility in this regard, lest he empty the liturgy of its true meaning or obscure its sacred character,” says the Holy Father.

Then he talks about “The core of the mystery of Christian worship.” Is the core of the mystery of Christian worship a sense that we are the people of God? Is it feeling united with each other? Spiritual bonding? Not according to the Pope, who says, “The core of the mystery of Christian worship is the Sacrifice of Christ offered to the Father and the work of the Risen Christ who sanctifies his people through the liturgical sign.” The sacrifice of Christ, sanctification. That’s what the Pope says. Remember, he’s looking now to lead the Church in the new millennium liturgically. He continues: “It is, therefore, essential that in seeking to enter more deeply into the contemplative depths of worship, the inexhaustible mystery of the priesthood of Jesus Christ be fully acknowledged and respected.”

There is a movement to refer to the celebrant as the “presider,” instead of the “celebrant” or the “priest.” Now it’s true, he is a presider. But that’s an abstraction; and I think there’s an agenda behind the abstraction. You see, all the Sacraments need someone who presides: at Confirmation, at the Eucharist, at Confession — and at Baptism. And who can preside at Baptism? The priest is the ordinary minister and presider, but under certain unusual circumstances a layman — man or woman — and even a non-Catholic can preside at Baptism. And, so, I believe some people want to get us in the habit of thinking of the priest as a presider primarily because that’s an abstract term, which could include women.

What does the Pope say about the matter? “The priest, therefore, is not just one who presides, but one who acts in the person of Christ.” You see, only the priest can act in persona Christi capitis, in the name of the Bridegroom (Jesus) over against the Bride (the Church) in the nuptial act, which is the Mass.

Full, Conscious and Active Participation

The Holy Father next discusses three attributes of the liturgy: full, conscious and active participation. Remember that I began by reading paragraph 14 of Sacrosanctum Concilium, which states that the purpose of the Council in renewing the liturgy was to achieve full, conscious, active participation? Well, those words can have different meanings. It is very interesting to find out what the Pope thinks they mean, as he tells us what he believes God is calling the Church to do in the liturgy in the new millennium.

First, he talks about the fullness of participation. “The sharing of all the baptized in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ is the key to understanding the Church’s call for full, conscious and active participation. Full participation certainly means that every member of the community has a part to play in the liturgy. And in this respect, a great deal has been achieved in parishes and communities across your land. But, full participation does not mean that everyone does everything. Since this would lead to a clericalizing of the laity and a laicizing of the priesthood, and this was not what the Council had in mind.”

What does he mean by “clericalizing the laity”? It’s the idea that, for example, the lector, the server at the altar, or the cross-bearer participates more actively than the mother with her child in the back of church. It’s the idea that being more like the priest in the sanctuary somehow makes you participate more fully. But the Pope says no to that idea. No, the “clericalizing of the laity” and the “laicizing of the clergy,” whereby the priest doesn’t do priestly things but sits while lay people are distributing the Eucharist, are not what the Council had in mind, says the Pope.

“The liturgy, like the Church, is intended to be hierarchical and polyphonic,” he says. Not concentric and egalitarian, but hierarchical and polyphonic: “Respecting the different roles assigned by Christ and allowing all the different voices to blend in one great hymn of praise.” I’m not saying there shouldn’t be lectors and acolytes, and so on. There should be. But the point is, it’s not how close you get to the altar that determines how fully you participate. If that were the case, then those who aren’t ministers of some sort at Mass would be second-class participants. That’s not what the Council meant, says the Pope, by full participation.

Then the Pope comes to active participation. “Active participation certainly means that in gesture, word, song, and service all the members of the community take part in an active worship, which is anything but inert or passive. Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness, and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily or following the prayers of the celebrant and the chants in music of the Liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way, profoundly active. In a culture that neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural.”

Especially in our noisy world, we need to have silence. Especially in our world where it is hard to pray, we need to have contemplative adoration. In a world that doesn’t respect the liturgical cycles and seasons, we need to celebrate the Feast of the Ascension on a Thursday, not on a Sunday. Precisely because we have to be counter-cultural, we need to say there’s something more important than the workday. It’s our feast day.

Finally, the Holy Father discusses conscious participation. He says, “Conscious participation calls for the entire community to be properly instructed in the mysteries of the liturgy” — the Council’s main instruction — “lest the experience of worship degenerate into a form of ritualism. But it does not mean a constant attempt within the liturgy itself to make the implicit explicit, since this often leads to verbosity and informality which are alien to the Roman Rite and end by trivializing the act of worship.”

Conscious participation, then, is not a multiplication of commentators telling us what’s happening as the Mass goes along; it’s not laid back informality and the trivializing of the liturgy. That’s why I think it may seem like a small thing, but it’s a very bad to begin a liturgy by saying, “Good morning, everyone.” That’s not how you begin a sacred liturgy. You begin a sacred liturgy, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” or better yet, “In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.”

The Holy Father continues: “Nor does conscious participation mean the suppression of all subconscious experience, which is vital in a liturgy which thrives on symbols that speak to the subconscious, just as they speak to the conscious. The use of the vernacular has certainly opened up the treasures of the liturgy to all who take part.” There is, then, a positive value to the vernacular. “But,” the Holy Father continues, “this does not mean that the Latin language, and especially, the Chants which are so superbly adapted to the genius of the Roman rite, should be wholly abandoned.”

What, then, does the Pope say about full, conscious, active participation? That it should be hierarchical, that there should be quiet, and worship in awe and reverence, and that there should be a place for Latin and, certainly for Chant in the liturgy. I submit to you that in most parishes across this country that’s not what you habitually find at the ordinary Masses for the people. Thus, although the Pope doesn’t say it in so many words, he is of the opinion that the way Mass is currently celebrated doesn’t conform fully to the mandates of the Council, as intended by the Church for the next century.

We have now two extremes and a moderate position. One extreme position is the kind of informal Mass, all in English, facing the people, with contemporary music, which does not at all correspond with what the Council had in mind. But it is legitimate, it is permitted; it is not wrong. And we have on the other extreme those who have returned, with permission, to the Mass of 1962 and, as others have noted, it is thriving and growing. But it is not what the Council itself specifically had in mind, although it is the Mass of the ages.

Then you have the moderates. Those in the middle. Me and a few others. But I am going to insist on my right as a Catholic and as priest to celebrate the liturgy according to the Council, according to the presently approved liturgical books, to celebrate a form of the Mass that therefore needs no special permission — and which in fact cannot be prohibited — what I’ve called “the Mass of Vatican II.”


Father Joseph Fessio, S.J., "The Mass of Vatican II." Catholic Dossier 5 no. 5 (September/October 2000): 12-20.

This article is reprinted with permission from Catholic Dossier. To subscribe to Catholic Dossier call 1-800-651-1531.


Father Joseph Fessio, S.J., is publisher of Catholic Dossier and editor of Ignatius Press.

TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; liturgy
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1 posted on 05/01/2002 6:48:29 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Lady In Blue;BlessedBeGod;american colleen
2 posted on 05/01/2002 6:49:21 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
Thanks for the ping and thread.


3 posted on 05/01/2002 8:12:03 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: nickcarraway
Thanks for posoting this.
4 posted on 05/01/2002 8:25:06 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Aesthetic bump. V's wife.
5 posted on 05/02/2002 4:32:45 AM PDT by ventana
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To: nickcarraway
Father Joseph Fessio bump!

Thank you for a wonderful article.

6 posted on 05/02/2002 4:46:49 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Oremus
7 posted on 05/05/2002 12:47:35 AM PDT by oremus
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To: oremus
Excellent piece. Isn't it amasing that almost 40 years have passed since the Infallible Vatican II Ecumenical Council and nowhere on Earth can one find a Mass that the Church Fathers desired.

One must remember that a Bishop's Synod voted NOT to accept the Mass of Paul VI the first time they saw it "performed." Now, it is the normative Mass and it is valid. But, it is artificial and did not result from an organic growth.

OK, I admit to being provocative in using the "Infallible" descriptive adjective when it is really tautological as ALL Ecumenical Councils are infallible by their nature.

I can't explain why we don't have the Mass that Vatican II desired. I just know we are living through a period of profound confusion and darkness that shows no signs of a quick and dramatic reform. The Bishops that countenanced the perverts in the seminaries and were complicit in the sex scandals are the very same ones who retain authority to decide the steps taken to correct the abuses. Come on... THe NCCB does not want to relinquish power. Breathes there a Catholic who thinks THEY desire a Mass like Vatican Two desired? Come on...

Benedicamus Domino for orders like FSSP. I think we have to give ALL credit to the Lord for this order. It is ineluctable that they exist only because of the schism of SSPX. And only God can bring good out of evil.

8 posted on 05/05/2002 5:06:17 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: nickcarraway; frogandtoad; Domestic Church; BlessedBeGod; saradippity; maryz; Jeff Chandler...
I was amazed. I called Professor William Mart, a Professor of Music at Stanford University and a friend. I said, “Bill, is this true?” He said, “Yes. The Psalm tones have their roots in ancient Jewish hymnody and psalmody.” So, you know something? If you sing the Psalms at Mass with the Gregorian tones, you are as close as you can get to praying with Jesus and Mary. They sang the Psalms in tones that have come down to us today in Gregorian Chant.

I have never seen this post before today. This is a great affirmation of what I have felt more by way of intuition than by learning. Thank you nickcarraway for a very useful and in its own way inspirational post.

9 posted on 05/05/2002 5:25:23 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: Lady In Blue
In regards to Quo Primum, one must keep "Mediator Dei" in mind. Pope Pius XII in The Sacred Liturgy, Mediator Dei, in #49 reminds everyone that "From time immemorial the ecclesastical Hierarchy has exercised this right in matters liturgical." In other words, Pope Saint Pius V can't circumscribe the exercise of the Supreme Power of a future Pope. See also, "On the Power and Nature of the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff" in Vatican I.

A Pope Siricius (384-399 a.d.) can have the Mass offered in Greek changed to his favortie Latin and a Pope Damasus I,who preceeded Siricius could NOT have prevented this from happening. Similarly, Pope Damasus could not have prevented Pope Saint Pius V from issuing Quo Primum.

10 posted on 05/05/2002 5:27:31 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: history_matters
"How Christ said the First Mass" is filled with such information. It can be ordered from TAN Books
11 posted on 05/05/2002 5:28:45 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Is there a web link for TAN books? Are they still based in Illinois?
12 posted on 05/05/2002 5:30:48 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
Thank you for the ping...that is something I didn't know, and it's fascinating. We go to a Trappist monastery to hear chant live, one of the monks belongs to a group that has put out several CDs of Chant. When I listen to it, I find it compelling in beauty.
13 posted on 05/05/2002 5:39:32 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: history_matters
It certainly is inspirational,Thanks.
14 posted on 05/05/2002 6:12:10 AM PDT by chatham
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To: history_matters
I can give you a reference:

. . . it is only natural to assume that there also existed a musical tradition leading from the Jewish to the earliest Christian chant. This surmise, formerly based only on inductive reasoning, has been scientifically established through the work of Idelsohn [A.Z. Idelson, Thesaurus of Hebrew Oriental Melodies, 10 vols., 1914-32]. . . . The most important result, from our point of view is the fact that there is a striking similarity of style between the ancient Jewish melodies and those of the Gregorian repertory, indicated by such basic traits as absence of regular meter, responsorial and antiphonal performance, prevailingly conjunct motion,psalmodic recitation, syllabic style mixed with melismas, and use of standard formulae.

Appel, Willi. Gregorian Chant. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, Fourth printing 1970.

The author notes that, although chant continued to develop and change, among chants that have survived with little change are psalm tones and the Gloria XV.

I read the book years ago (it would have been more enjoyable if a record or tapes had been included); it was very difficult going for me, as I'm pretty much musically illiterate, but there were a great many interesting things that weren't technical enough to be unintelligible.

15 posted on 05/05/2002 6:39:30 AM PDT by maryz
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To: history_matters

Just got Fr. Shuster's Bible History and Belloc's books on the reformation from them.

As I was reading through Fr. Fessio's words and thinking about how far off the Church in America seems to be, the words from the Gospel of John came to mind...

"I tell you most solemly,
when you were young
you put on your own belt
and walked where you liked;
but when you grown old
you will stretch out your hands
and somebody else will put a belt around you
and take you where you would rather not go."
16 posted on 05/05/2002 6:43:52 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: history_matters; catholicguy; Theresa; american colleen; nickcarraway; _ELS; Lady in Blue; maryz...
Not quite on topic, but I am trying to find an english version of the Regina Chaeve (sp?) with following prayer. Can anyone help?
17 posted on 05/05/2002 8:28:21 AM PDT by ventana
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To: ventana
The Regina Coeli in English

Regina Coeli

Queen of heaven, rejoice. Alleluia. 

For He whom thou didst deserve to bear, Alleluia. 

Hath risen as He said, Alleluia. 

Pray for us to God, Alleluia. 

V. Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary, Alleluia. 
R. Because Our Lord is truly risen, Alleluia. 

    Let us pray 

O God, who by the resurrection of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, hast vouchsafed to make glad the whole world, great, we beseech Thee, that, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, His Mother, we may attain the joys of eternal life.    Through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen. 

++++++++++ Regina Coeli (Queen of Heaven)

The opening words of the Eastertide anthem of the Blessed Virgin, the recitation of which is prescribed in the Roman Breviary from Compline of Holy Saturday until None of the Saturday after Pentecost inclusively. In choro, the anthem is to be sung standing. In illustration of the view that the anthem forms a "syntonic strophe", that is, one depending on the accent of the word and not the quantity of the syllable, It goes as follows:

Regina coeli laetere, Alleluia,
Quia quem meruisti portare.
Sicut dixit,
Ora pro nobis Deum.
In the first two verses ("Regina" and "Quia") the accent falls on the second, fourth, and seventh syllables (the word quia being counted as a single syllable); in the second two verses ("Resurrexit", "Sicut dixit"), on the first and third syllables. The Alleluia serves as a refrain. Of unknown authorship, the anthem has been traced back to the twelfth century. It was in Franciscan use, after Compline, in the first half of the following century. Together with the other Marian anthems, it was incorporated in the Minorite-Roman Curia Office, which, by the activity of the Franciscans, was soon popularized everywhere, and which, by the order of Nicholas III (1277-80), replaced all the older Office-books in all the churches of Rome. Batiffol ("History of the Roman Breviary", tr., London, 1898, pp. 158-228) admits that "we owe a just debt of gratitude to those who gave us the antiphons of the Blessed Virgin" (p. 225), which he considers "four exquisite compositions, though in a style enfeebled by sentimentality" (p. 218). The anthems are indeed exquisite, although (as may appropriately be noted in the connection) they run through the gamut of medieval literary style, from the classical hexameters of the "Alma Redemptoris Mater" through the richly-rhymed accentual rhythm and regular strophes of the "Ave Regina Coelorum", the irregular syntonic strophe of the "Regina Coeli", down to the sonorous prose rhythms (with rhyming closes) of the Salve Regina. "In the 16th century, the antiphons of our Lady were employed to replace the little office at all the hours" (Baudot, "The Roman Breviary", London, 1909, p. 71). The "Regina Coeli" takes the place of the "Angelus" during the Paschal Time.

The authorship of the "Regina Coeli" being unknown, legend says the St. Gregory the Great (d. 604) heard the first three lines chanted by angels on a certain Easter morning in Rome while he walked barefoot in a great religious procession and that the saint thereupon added the fourth line: "Ora pro nobis Deum. Alleluia." (See also SALVE REGINA for a similar attribution of authorship). The authorship has also been ascribed to Gregory V, but without good reason. The beautiful plainsong melodies (a simple and an ornate form) are variously given in the Ratisbon antiphonary and in the Solesmes "Liber Usualis" of 1908, the ornate form in the latter work, with rhythmical signs added, being very attractive. The official or "typical" melody will be found (p. 126) in the Vatican Antiphonary (1911). Only one form of melody is given. The different syllabic lengths of the lines make the anthem difficult to translate with fidelity into English verse. The anthem has often been treated musically by both polyphonic and modern composers.

18 posted on 05/05/2002 8:40:08 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
19 posted on 05/05/2002 8:53:16 AM PDT by ventana
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To: patent
20 posted on 05/05/2002 9:43:11 AM PDT by patented
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To: history_matters
Something I shall remember when I'm in the loft at the Latin Mass.

Thanks for the heads up.

21 posted on 05/05/2002 9:54:32 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: nickcarraway
Thanks for the post, Nick.
22 posted on 05/05/2002 9:56:20 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: berned
If you sing the Psalms at Mass with the Gregorian tones, you are as close as you can get to praying with Jesus and Mary. They sang the Psalms in tones that have come down to us today in Gregorian Chant.

Your beliefs about the Catholic Church are in no way founded in fact and seem shaped instead by the media and agit-prop. Until you evidence any concrete knowledge of the Church, it's better to keep your mouth closed rather than to open it and remove all doubt you're a fool.

23 posted on 05/05/2002 10:01:08 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: nickcarraway
Deo gratias.

Thanks for posting this.

24 posted on 05/05/2002 10:06:52 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Askel5
Well, I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Everyone else in my family, except me, is a Roman Catholic back to every generation that we know of. I went to Parochial school K-12, was an altar boy, first communion, confirmation...

It was only when I graduated from Catholic school, and began to actually read the Bible that I came to know Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I watched as every one of my friends from Catholic school, drifted away from God, to where now, the only time they think of God at all is Easter and Christmas. (Same with my family)

Additionally, I've done considerable reading about the Roman Catholic Church. As to your incorrect assertion that I am affected by "media hype", anyone who knows me from my four years here at FR knows that I don't trust the media for ANY kind of truth.

So I'd say I know quite a bit about Roman Catholicism. I understand your anger and your need to appear to be dismissive of me and what I have to say. It doesn't deter me in the slightest from speaking the truth about the Vatican, any more than the anger from my liberal friends stops me from speaking out about the Clinton years.

25 posted on 05/05/2002 10:39:21 AM PDT by berned
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To: berned
You've now removed all doubt. Catholics do read the Bible and in fact, have more Bible readings during the Mass than most non Catholic services. If you had ever been Catholic you would have known that. But you haven't been. Another classic fundamentalist trick. Maybe if you actually spent more time reading your Bible you would know about bearing false witness. You people are getting so tedious and pathetic.
26 posted on 05/05/2002 11:27:10 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: history_matters
Thanks for the "ping". Father Fessio reflects my thoughts exactly,expands them with knowledge,intelligence and holiness and then expresses them with clarity.

I think I will print this article out and send it to the "Liturgical Terrorist" and her comrades at the Chancery.

I think just some Gregorian Chant and turning the priest to face the East with us would greatly strengthen us and enhance the efficacy of the Mass. I also think encouraging our bishops to return to praying the prayer of St. Michael would be helpful in combatting the iniquities that have penetrated deep into the heart of the Church.

27 posted on 05/05/2002 11:40:45 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: goldenstategirl
Bearing false witness is a sin. You appear to be calling me a liar for telling you the truth about my life! I urge you in the strongest terms, not to sin in this way.

My church does 5 to 8 baptisms a week, where the person is immersed in a tank. Before they are baptised, they give their testimony about how they came to be saved and to know Jesus Christ as their Savior. The most common tesitmony by far, is that of people who were raised Roman Catholic, then after a living life without knowing God in a real, personal way, began to read the Bible and came to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. My conversion is an extremely common one.

28 posted on 05/05/2002 11:45:23 AM PDT by berned
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To: berned
You'll pay a price someday for your deceit.
29 posted on 05/05/2002 11:48:52 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: goldenstategirl
Are you saying that people do not convert from Roman Catholicism to Fundamentalist Christians? Are you calling me a liar for telling the truth?
30 posted on 05/05/2002 11:51:01 AM PDT by berned
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: berned
"The most common tesitmony by far, is that of people who were raised Roman Catholic, then after a living life without knowing God in a real, personal way, began to read the Bible and came to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. My conversion is an extremely common one."

Okay lemme see. Here are these people, raised Catholic then drifted away. Now why did they drift away? I think a lot of times (not ALWAYS but I bet in many cases) it's because of becoming a teenager and all the experiementation and rebellion that goes with it. Then on to college and young adulthood and giving in to the temptations of illicit sex, divorce and other sins that result in a even greater breech with God and the Church and even more neglect of one's spiritual life. Happens quite a bit to people in their 20's and 30's.

Then one day these people are older and wiser and decide they need to settle down and tend to their souls. A good thing! Along comes an Evangelical and off they go with him to an Evangelical Church just to see what it is like. Well it's great because Hey you don't have to go to Confession and confess 20 years worth of sins and the fact that they you are on your third marriage. (Things the Catholic Church certainly did not make them do!)

And so they find God. (Again a good thing.) But they start to look back for reasons why they lost him. Not wanting to blame themselves for their drifting away from Jesus in the first place, they decide they never knew him at all and this was not THEIR fault, it was the fault of the Catholic Church.

My speculation, and it is just that, is that hardly anyone leaves the Catholic Church while in the state of grace, that is, while living a virtuous and godly life as fully participating, practicing Catholic. They drift out because of sin and forget that is why they left, then blame the Church for not bringing them close to God. But the fact is they closed THEMSELVES to God or they would not have left because God and Jesus are right there in the Catholic Church!

32 posted on 05/05/2002 10:29:07 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: allend
" So then they "find Jesus," join a fundamentalist church, and then become vitriolically anti-Catholic by way of self-justification."

This happens a lot. I know a woman on her third marriage who was raised Catholic, became Fundamentalist and is totally anti-Catholic now. Wonder why?

33 posted on 05/05/2002 10:37:17 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: berned
"The most common tesitmony by far, is that of people who were raised Roman Catholic, then after a living life without knowing God in a real, personal way, began to read the Bible and came to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior."

A Catholic can partake of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, in the Eucharist, every single day. (There are daily masses.) If that is not a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't know what is.

34 posted on 05/05/2002 10:41:37 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: berned
You're like a reformed smoker. Your contempt for your past will fade away. You will come to the realization that preaching to the smokers won't change a thing. They have to have a very strong desire to quit and Free Republic is not very fertile ground to convert THESE smokers.
35 posted on 05/05/2002 10:52:14 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: Theresa
36 posted on 05/05/2002 11:51:51 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: berned
"Are you saying that people do not convert from Roman Catholicism to Fundamentalist Christians? Are you calling me a liar for telling the truth?"

Hey I know it happens. But it also happens that people from other denominations convert to Catholic. Happens everyday! My point is your proof does not prove anything. I mean if are you are trying to prove that Catholics don't love God, and you do, you did not do it.

37 posted on 05/06/2002 12:12:02 AM PDT by Theresa
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To: berned;goldenstategirl
I have been actively working to defeat a pro-homosexual catechism in my daughter's Catholic school. In the study of it and the study of catechisms generally, and specifically the catechism of the Archdiocese of New York and its guidelines, I have come to the conclusion that many renegade Bishops are failing to pass on the faith to young people in a way that conforms with the actual Catechism of the Catholic church and the directives of the Pope.

The failure can be tied to what they teach as well as what they fail to teach: A true understanding of the Sacraments; A well-presented history of the Faith; An understanding of the Ten commandments and the Beatitudes which leads to a fulfilling understanding of why our Catechism says what it says. Instruction in the Virtues. Instuction in the Deadly Sins. Catholic Apologetics. In short, the catechism of the last twenty five years, post Vatican Two, post Baltimore Catechism, if done following the guidelines of the Archdiocese of New York and other Archdiocese, reads like a disinformation campaign!

I will guess berned that you are under the age of forty and were not instructed in the old Baltimore Catechism, same for your friends and family. Additionally, goldenstategirl, we need to understand why we have the situation we have and extend a little charity, for they know not why they do what they do. My challenge to you berned is this: go out and get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic church issued by John Paul 2nd in 1996. Read it and you will have a true understanding of the Catholic Church, and not what a bunch of dissident Bishops wanted you to think. It's the same analogy as reading the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers to get a true sense of what was intended as opposed to relying on the NEA and whatever reading material they now think relevant. Give it a shot and keep an open mind. V's wife.

38 posted on 05/06/2002 6:53:43 AM PDT by ventana
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To: ventana
BTW, perhaps I will get around to posting some passages from the Archdiocese of New York's Catechism intended for Confirmation candidates. I think its section on Human Sexuality (which has to do with?????regarding confirmation) would be an eye-opener. And a primer in understanding the ways and means in which Catholic youth are driven from the faith by ignorance and propaganda! V's wife.
39 posted on 05/06/2002 6:56:40 AM PDT by ventana
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To: Theresa; allend; st chuck;
In post #23, Askel5 accused me of holding the beliefs that I do about the Vatican with no knowledge of Roman Catholicism.

So, in post # 25, I explained to him honestly, about having been born and raised Roman Catholic, as has everyone in my family, having attended parochial school, etc.

Then, in post #26, goldenstategirl accused me of lying about my own life story! So I then told the truth about the baptisms in my church. I didn't offer any editorial comments. It's just the truth! The single most common testimony in my church of people who come to know Jesus as their Savior, is that they were born and raised Catholics.

Now all of you attack the saving grace of Jesus Christ, saying that people only accept Jesus Christ as Lord in order "To get divorced". I stongly urge you not to do this.

40 posted on 05/06/2002 7:06:34 AM PDT by berned
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To: berned
berned, I really think you are telling the truth, and I think you genuinely believe in your faith. I am certain, however, that you were not properly raised a Catholic, through no fault of your own, or your parents. The Faith is NOT being instructed with a proper formation within what is passing for Catechism. I really believe this explains a lot, and why your friends within your church are often lapsed Catholics. They want moral absolutes, which they get within your teachings as they would get within the Catholic Church (more so in that the Church rejects, on the authority of Christ and Scripture and Tradition: divorce) they did not get proper instruction, however. Which we as the laity now, more then ever, must begin to demand! V's wife.
41 posted on 05/06/2002 8:10:53 AM PDT by ventana
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
God bless you! sandyeggo (love the screen-name). I have spent time trying to educate myself. I can only say: get a copy of the Catechism. It is so simple and beautiful. It is easy to read. Plus, kicking around here at FR will teach you plenty! We have an amazing treasure trove of posters who are besotted with their faith, if I may. This goes for Catholics and Non-Catholics, and most are enlightening in a charitable way. I have learned much here, some posters are not so nice, although even some of the mean ones have cleaned up their acts of late and speak in more charitable voice. V's wife.
43 posted on 05/06/2002 8:43:38 AM PDT by ventana
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: ventana
Thank you for your kind post. I will tell you the truth, (and hope that it doesn't infuriate you, as it does others.)

I attended Catholic school in the 60's. We were not taught about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We were taught about Mary, the Saints, the Pope, The Rosary, The Stations of the Cross, Lent, Purgatory, etc. We were taught that if you ate a ham sandwich on Friday, then were hit by a car, you would go to Hell for all eternity.

When I got out of school, and began to read the Bible for myself, I saw NONE OF THAT. (We were taught that "only the priests could understand the Bible", and that we shouldn't even try. You can imagine my shock and anger when I read the Bible for myself and saw the REAL reason they taught us that. The Protestant explosion began when catholics were able to read God's Word for themselves for the first time.)

Anyway, for the record, I believe many Roman Catholics ARE true Christians, ARE saved, and WILL go to heaven. But the Vatican is... well, I dare not say what I think the Vatican is.

You mention your diocese teaches a pro-gay catechism. The Bible says in no uncertain terms, that "No homosexual will enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Black and white. No wiggle room. That SHOULD be the end of the story, right? But it isn't, because Catholicism has no tradition of teaching and revering God's Holy Word. So everything becomes negotiable.

I believe this is a long-ago formed strategy from the Vatican that began with keeping the Mass in a dead language, so no-one would even know what the priests were saying. It continues today, where the Catechism has supplanted the Bible, so they can cherry-pick those verses that can be used to cobble together the RC "doctrine". (This is one reason why the Jews don't accept Jesus. They no longer read the Bible, they read the TALMUD. If they read the Old Testament, there are so many prophesies about Jesus, they would HAVE to believe.)

46 posted on 05/06/2002 9:00:26 AM PDT by berned
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To: berned
Well, I grant you the bible is the best place to go to hear our Lord. The Vatican isn't endorsing the homosexuals, its errant Bishops and priests who have failed. Protestant fundamentalists and Baptists also have gay ministries at odds with the leaders of their various denominations. I am sorry you were taught by ignorant teachers of the Faith who lacked the talent of true instruction. I urge you to get the Catechism book I mentioned and to read through it. Because when you criticize the Church, you must first look at her document and take issue with the specifics therein. It is not enough to point to a misguided teacher. It is not enough because the mass was said in Latin. In fairness, that is not enough. V's wife.
47 posted on 05/06/2002 9:13:12 AM PDT by ventana
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To: berned
BTW, my diocese does not teach a pro-gay Catechism, my daughter's school endorsed a pro-gay catechetical book. My diocese does teach a Human Sexuality component of the Catechism must be taught. This is in opposition to what the Pontifical Council on the Family insists must be taught. It is dissident. But the Vatican teaches that homosexuality must not be taught, promiscuity must not be, aids curriculuum must not be, birth control and abortion must not be. I think you would agree with the letter, to the letter. V's wife.
48 posted on 05/06/2002 9:16:11 AM PDT by ventana
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To: sandyeggo; berned; ventana
Having said that, I agree with ventana in post #38 that any Catholic religious training I would have had in those years (I'm 41, right on, ventana) would probably have been useless, and still would be today.

I'm with you guys. I'm 42 and the ONLY thing that saved me was an inquisitive mind. I attended Catholic HS, but never learned about the "Catholic Faith" - but fortunately, we did get through the Bible in Religion Class. I attended Catachism throughout my childhood, but don't recall being properly taught what the Catholic faith is. It is possible that a part of the negligence was my disposition and age at the time, I'm not sure. I imagine that we really listen when we are ready, or when God calls us to listen.

It really took being married to an (agnostic) Lutheran for me to study Protestantism and Catholicism, and that, coupled with the reading of some of the lives of the Saints (in particular, Padre Pio) has led me to slowly, over the years, cement the love that I have for the Catholic Church, and by that I mean the way She teaches Christ's message.

I thank God every day that Catholicism brings me to Jesus and His message of Salvation. I am brought to tears at times during Mass for the great gift I have been given because I am privledged to be a part of the sacramental Catholic community.

Just my 2 cents!

49 posted on 05/06/2002 9:19:12 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: berned
believe this is a long-ago formed strategy from the Vatican that began with keeping the Mass in a dead language, so no-one would even know what the priests were saying

Sorry, Ace. The Mass was changed from the Greek (The Kyrie is retained from that Mass) into the vernacular Latin that Pope Siricius loved. That happened PRIOR to 400 A.D. A surprising number of Romans spoke Latin (sarcasm)so that mendacious strategy of your beliefs was doomed from the start

50 posted on 05/06/2002 9:30:06 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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