Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

EVIDENCE GROWS OF DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO VATICAN IN MAJOR AMERICAN SEMINARIES
Spirit Daily ^ | July 2, 2002

Posted on 07/02/2002 8:59:38 AM PDT by NYer

A couple of weeks ago we ran an item about a new book, Goodbye, Good Men, which focuses on the crisis in Catholic seminaries. Since we are in the midst of a scandal, most of what we reviewed had to do with liberalism and sexual immorality in the seminaries.

But there is much more to it than that, and as this book makes clear, at a good number of seminaries there is outright and sometimes outspoken disobedience to the Vatican. In fact, according to some seminarians, loyalty to John Paul II has sometimes been seen as grounds to disqualify a seminarian.

If one wants to glimpse the possibility of a future schism, the seminaries are where the seeds have been so amply (and ably) planted. We realize this book is controversial. A number of recent reviewers have called parts of it into question, and at turns it may be less than comprehensive. We're not sure. Nor do we know about the author's work other than this book.

What we do know is that the central premise -- corruption in seminaries -- is something that has been painfully observed for many years and simply needed to be put between two hard covers. When it is, the crisis crystallizes.

Take the case of Mary Immaculate Seminary in Northampton, Pennsylvania. According to one former seminarian quoted in the book, Father John Trigilio, "they would come right out in the classroom and at the pulpit and deny dogmas of the Catholic faith or at least sow the seeds of doubt and dissent -- from the divine personhood of Christ to inerrancy of Scripture to the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium."

There were questions about the Virgin birth. There were questions on whether Jesus knew He was God. 

Now, hear us well: we agree there are extremes. There are conservative extremists (who declare as heretics anyone who doesn't share precisely the same devotions) as well as the liberal extremists (as personified by those who are currently in control of too many seminaries). We acknowledge that there are extremes at both ends, and that both can be equally destructive. Some of those who call themselves "orthodox" are sometimes more interested in legalism than in Christ's central teachings of love and charity.

But enough is enough: According to Father Trigilio, there is a "new Bible theology" at seminaries teaching that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't really write anything; that the idea of Mass "sacrifice" is an antiquated pagan idea; and that "all the miracles attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were fabrications."

No wonder our priests doubt the True Presence. No wonder they reject the Blessed Mother's apparitions! Moreover, it turns out that John Paul II was so concerned about what was going on in U.S. seminaries that in 1981 he instructed the bishops to investigate, but that investigation only touched the surface and many seminaries, it seems, were able to circumvent the investigators. When the Vatican team came to Mary Immaculate Seminary, for example, "things they never did, like benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, were all of a sudden done." But when the investigators left, says the book (by Michael S. Rose), the encyclicals went back on the remote shelves, rosaries were put back in drawers, and clerics were stashed away in chiffoniers.

If you had a photo of the Pope in your room, says the priest, "they kept a close eye on you." Liberal faculty members were "sick and tired" of John Paul II. Most of the time when a guy was expelled from the seminary, charged Father Trigilio, it was because he was "too Catholic." 

A "diabolical element" had pervaded the seminaries, he told Rose. "There were nights when I couldn't even sleep because I was so scared. I could almost feel the presence of evil in that place. The way the priests had so much disdain for the Eucharist and for Mary, for example, was outright hostility."

To be objective: it is not just a conservative-liberal issue. The evil cuts on both sides.

Plenty of the priests accused of abuse were "conservative." I saw this last week in the church nearest my own home where a former associate pastor was removed from ministry
FULL TEXT

But it is the liberal mentality -- especially the proclivity for humanistic psychology -- that has been so tolerant as to form the soil of germination. It is the humanistic mindset that strips the divinity from Christ, that disclaims the virgin birth, that disbelieves in anything immaterial. It is the humanistic mindset that is "open" to sinful sex and that convinced bishops to give child abusers second and third chances. Last weekend, when they made the announcement at the local church, they brought in four "counselors" to advise the faithful, at the same time that it was explained that it was therapists who has allowed this priest to return to begin with!

Too much psychology. Too little prayer. Look: John Paul II is a giant who towers over guys like Freud and Jung. We need to realize this. Instead, we're busy buying into science's rejection of anything it can't see in a microscope (which means the supernatural).

And then there is the simple spirit of rebellion. This is a powerful spirit (see 1 Samuel 15:23) and it has caused too many American seminaries to become breeding grounds for schism.

Again, we don't know, in the end, how balanced Goodbye, Good Men will be, and we have our own concerns about too freely making allegations. Within the Church, one must be very, very careful with muckraking. The Church has enough enemies! 

But when they're teaching future priests to disdain the Pope:

That has to stop right now, or right now we have to stop calling these seminaries Catholic. 


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; pope; schism; seminary
The author, Mr. Brown, is webmaster of Spirit Daily. I caught an interesting interview with him last night on EWTN.
1 posted on 07/02/2002 8:59:39 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Siobhan; american colleen; sinkspur; Aliska; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...
PING! AND BUMP!
2 posted on 07/02/2002 9:00:30 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
BTTT for later reading.
3 posted on 07/02/2002 9:08:03 AM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
I just finished reading the book. I would call it a must read. I wish I knew what the lay people could do to stop it. I have stopped giving to the church and the church I attend has the tridentine mass. I will give to the organizations that promote and endorse the return of tradition.
4 posted on 07/02/2002 9:44:34 AM PDT by u57896
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: NYer
If you're not going to be Catholic, why be Catholic?
5 posted on 07/02/2002 9:47:17 AM PDT by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Good post, thanks for the ping.
6 posted on 07/02/2002 9:50:44 AM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
What we do know is that the central premise -- corruption in seminaries -- is something that has been painfully observed for many years and simply needed to be put between two hard covers.

Yes! And this more than validates this book and its value to the remnant faithful.

7 posted on 07/02/2002 10:15:33 AM PDT by ThomasMore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer; All
"they would come right out in the classroom and at the pulpit and deny dogmas of the Catholic faith or at least sow the seeds of doubt and dissent -- from the divine personhood of Christ to inerrancy of Scripture to the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium."

I experienced this first hand at Providence College, which is used by our diocese for the Permanent Deacons' formation and some of the priestly vocations(pre-theologate).

8 posted on 07/02/2002 10:19:57 AM PDT by ThomasMore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ThomasMore
I experienced this first hand at Providence College

A former neighbor left the seminary during the '80's for the very same reason. So, what does that say about those who do graduate from the seminary and serve as ordained priests? Heads up during homilies!

9 posted on 07/02/2002 10:25:01 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: NYer
there is a "new Bible theology" at seminaries teaching that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't really write anything; that the idea of Mass "sacrifice" is an antiquated pagan idea; and that "all the miracles attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were fabrications."

Thank you Rudy Bultmann! (you liberal protestant !@#$%^&@#$%^&*@#$%^&* house wrecker you!)

10 posted on 07/02/2002 10:26:43 AM PDT by ThomasMore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Thanks for the ping. A very good article and I am glad the author of it uses Fr. Trigilio's statements as Fr. Trigilio is a well known priest who has witnessed Mr. Rose's assertations first hand.

I am reading "Windswept House" and boy, is the premise of the story applicable to what is going on today - the disobedience to the Papal office. I wonder how much of the story is fact, and how much is fiction.

11 posted on 07/02/2002 10:27:46 AM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer
From the article:"If one wants to glimpse the possibility of a future schism..."

One could argue that some of the colleges, seminaries, religious orders, and chanceries are practically in schism, directly opposing church teachings and Catholic orthodoxy in many areas. If activist sodomite wreckovators like Weakland were not in schism, opposing church teachings, who is?

12 posted on 07/02/2002 10:31:13 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer; All
That has to stop right now, or right now we have to stop calling these seminaries Catholic.

Fr. Gould (on EWTN) had the right idea. Close down all but four or five and put them all under close surveillance. All rectors and faculty must take a yearly oath of fidelity to the Pope amd the Magisterium. And send in some ringers.

13 posted on 07/02/2002 10:31:21 AM PDT by ThomasMore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
According to Father Trigilio, there is a "new Bible theology" at seminaries teaching that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't really write anything; that the idea of Mass "sacrifice" is an antiquated pagan idea; and that "all the miracles attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were fabrications."

My understanding is that Cardinal Kasper has said as much (at least regards the Divinity of Our Lord and the miracles) in a book he wrote. I haven't yet tracked down a copy, but if true he is a public heretic AND a Cardinal of the Church. It also explains his bizzarre ruling regards the "Mass" of the heretical Abyssinian Church of the East and the Chaldean Rite of the Catholic Church.

14 posted on 07/02/2002 10:34:29 AM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
graduate from the seminary and serve as ordained priests?

Always approach with caution. Isn't that an awful predicament. And the Bishops have been allowing this!!!!

15 posted on 07/02/2002 10:37:40 AM PDT by ThomasMore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: ThomasMore
And grossly expand the regular orders that have stayed faithful -- the FSSP, the Legionairres and assuming the rapproachment with Rome is consummated, the SSPX.
16 posted on 07/02/2002 10:38:14 AM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: ThomasMore
"...Rudy Bultmann" 10 posted on 7/2/02 10:26 AM Pacific by ThomasMore

Modern biblical criticism, Liberation Theology, "death of God" theology, existentialism, Freud, etc.,...all this stuff is presented as if it is gospel, as if it is "science" and written in stone, while Thomism, Catholic doctrine, miracles are all subjected to doubt. Unfortunately, there is this trendy mentality which welcomes with giddy enthusiasm every liberal, modernist, and humanist ideology. At the same time that clergy were embracingt Freud, for instance, most of his quackery was being rejected by medical schools and professional psychiatric associations. It's that stupid. A lot of these guys are not really that bright, despite the jargon-laden, pseudo-intellectual pretensions. The whole attempt in Liberation Theology to mate Christianity with Communism or Socialism, for instance, is a classic exmple of how stupid and corrupt some of these types are. The homosexualism is in the same category. These people are working out neurotic hang-ups and all sorts of emotional grudges, and psychological problems through the machinery, power, and prestige of church institutions. You almost need doctoral specialization in abormal psychology to figure out what really is going on with the antics of some of these deranged types.

18 posted on 07/02/2002 10:44:43 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Good post. I had dinner with Fr Trigilio 2 years ago, and he told us much of what is related in Michael Rose's book. Its one thing to read it, its another to see the very real pain in his eyes as he relates these abuses.

I simply disregard the critics of Michael Rose. His analysis may not be a perfect scholarly endeavor, but it is 100% right on.

19 posted on 07/02/2002 10:50:14 AM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
If you're not going to be Catholic, why be Catholic?

I suspect that the simple fact of the matter is that they are not only "not Catholic" but they HATE the Catholic Church to such an extent that they believe they are doing a good work by trying to tear it down from the inside. The dissenters must be chased out. Enough is enough.
20 posted on 07/02/2002 10:51:59 AM PDT by Antoninus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: allend
I haven't followed them closely, are there problems?
21 posted on 07/02/2002 11:01:50 AM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: nickcarraway
"If you're not going to be Catholic, why be Catholic?"

Because they're proud and arrogant and want to reshape the Church in their own image. And we all know where pride and arrogance come from...from the one who is also responsible for that whiff of sulphur that seems to permeate the air at these seminaries.


23 posted on 07/02/2002 11:44:49 AM PDT by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: allend
That sounds scary. Has there been any action wrt problems vis-a-vis Rome?
24 posted on 07/02/2002 1:06:28 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: allend
I'd be interested in reading moer about them. I have heard generally good things, but very little and not recently. Your story sounds scary.
26 posted on 07/02/2002 1:42:51 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: allend
Isn't JPII a strong supporter of the Legionaries?

I've read a great deal of pro and con about the Legionaries, and something bothers me tremendously about them - the allegations of sexual abuse. Do you think there is any credence to those allegations or is the group just being persecuted by the non-orthodox (can't think of a better word to use) members of the Catholic hierarchy?

I don't know what to believe anymore.

27 posted on 07/02/2002 1:59:18 PM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: american colleen
I've read reviews of "Windswept House" that call it "faction". Somewhat like Dragnet, Martin changed only the names.
29 posted on 07/02/2002 2:06:34 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: allend
Thanks. Very interesting. I suspect there may be more there than meets the eye.
31 posted on 07/02/2002 2:12:30 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
I don't know what to believe anymore.

Sure you do. You believe the Creed, the Bible, the Catechism. You believe the Real Presence. You believe Christ built a Church and gave it the Keys of the Kingdom.

Its not that we don't know what to believe, its that we don't know who to trust.

I trust my wife, and mom and dad. I trust my spiritual director, an old faithful very holy Passionist priest. I trust a handful of others. Only a handful.

I trust the Pope when he speaks as Peter. I don't always trust his or anyone else's prudential judgement. The Holy Spirit doesn't guarantee that anyone will be Divinely protected from making boneheaded imprudent decisions. Not even the Pope.

Keep believing what you know to be Truth.

Keep Trusting He Who is worthy of Trust.

Pray for the rest, do your best, don't worry, then try to be at peace.

32 posted on 07/02/2002 2:31:22 PM PDT by Polycarp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: NYer
This sounds like the New Age , Open Theology ,feel good gospel is finding itself into Catholic Seminaries..

You guys better act quickly..or before you know it Robert Schuler will be at your local parish

I can not believe that Satan is just pulling all the stops..All churches are fighting the same battles..

33 posted on 07/02/2002 3:03:07 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Polycarp
Very well said, thank you.
34 posted on 07/02/2002 3:03:50 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: NYer
The good news is that the good guys win in the end....
35 posted on 07/02/2002 4:17:10 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: Polycarp
Polycarp,

Thank you very much for your post to me - #32.

You are right. I guess I get a bit overwhelmed at times.
38 posted on 07/02/2002 10:05:28 PM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Ping Three.
40 posted on 06/29/2003 4:44:41 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: u57896
I wish I knew what the lay people could do to stop it.

This is a problem within most denominations. Once you go to some centralized control (i.e. that beyound the local congregation) then any control or say is lost to the hierarchy.

41 posted on 06/29/2003 8:55:43 PM PDT by PFKEY
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer
And also at colleges and universities. The estrangement from orthodox Catholic Christianity and Catholic cultural identity is pretty well distributed throughout the church's institutions, certain seminaries being rather absurdly bizarre examples of the phenomenon. Anti-Catholic ideology at some of the universities and colleges has been tolerated and even promoted by elements of the clergy with very little response from bishops on the matter. Bishops who remain silent while Catholics in their dioceses are subjected to anti-Catholic intimidation and harassment on Catholic campuses are an outrage. They do not serve Christ or the Church. It's a grave and disgusting scandal. The Church has been gutted and shamed as cowardly church leaders have twiddled their thumbs. It's time to tear the mask off and rein in the obnoxious and grotesque anti-Catholic cabals carving up consecrated ground and defrauding Catholic families. Bishops participate in the lie by allowing these anti-Catholic criminals and vandals to further soil the word "Catholic."
42 posted on 07/01/2003 1:39:04 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
A "diabolical element" had pervaded the seminaries, he told Rose. "There were nights when I couldn't even sleep because I was so scared. I could almost feel the presence of evil in that place. The way the priests had so much disdain for the Eucharist and for Mary, for example, was outright hostility."

Ditto. Interesting to read someone else's description of this phenomenon.

43 posted on 07/01/2003 2:01:06 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; ...
Ping.
44 posted on 08/25/2003 6:21:32 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
"...Martin changed only the names."

To protect the guilty.
45 posted on 08/25/2003 6:37:11 PM PDT by RaginCajunTrad (ask not what your government can do for you; ask your government not to do anything to you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: NYer; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...

As we hear how horrible and schismatic the SSPX is, let us remember how horrible, schismatic and even statanic many diocesan seminaries are.


46 posted on 05/17/2004 8:14:15 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson