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To: Salvation
Thanks! I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit after a debate last week on the subject and the argument presented was that they had a different interpretation of the bible. But as I pointed out, the Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise. If look at the 27 books of the New Testament You won’t find any that spell out the elements of the faith the way catechisms do or even the way the ancient creeds did. Those 27 books were written **for the most part** as provisional documents addressed to particular audiences for particular purposes. Most of the epistles were written to local churches that were experiencing moral and/or doctrinal problems.
10 posted on 07/15/2002 10:40:58 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
References of the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. Most have to do with scholars, teachers and doctors of the church, but there are some Biblical references.

I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary
Under Pontius Pilate He was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

   ENDNOTES

   1 DV 2; cf. Col 1:15; I Tim 1:17; Ex 33:11; Jn 15:14-15; Bar 3:38 (Vulg.).
   2 Cf. DV 5.

   3 Cf. Rom 1:5; 16:26.

   4 Heb 11:8; cf. Gen 12:1-4.

   5 Cf. Gen 23:4.

   6 Cf. Heb 11:17.

   7 Heb 11:1.

   8 Rom 4:3; cf. Gen 15:6.
   9 Rom 4:11, 18; 4:20; cf. Gen 15:5.

   10 Heb 11:2, 39.

   11 Heb 11:40; 12:2.
   12 Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.

   13 Lk 1:45.

   14 Cf. Lk 1:48.

   15 Cf. Lk 2:35.

   16 2 Tim 1:12.

   17 Cf. Jer 17:5-6; Pss 40:5; 146:3-4.

   18 Mk 1:11; cf. 9:7

   19 Jn 14:1.

   20 Jn 1:18.

   21 Jn 6:46; cf. Mt 11:27.

   22 I Cor 12:3.

   23 I Cor 2:10-11.

   24 Mt 16:17; cf. Gal 1:15; Mt 11:25.

   25 DV 5; cf. DS 377; 3010.

   26 Dei Filius: 3: DS 3008.

   27 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 2, 9; cf Dei Filius 3; DS 3010.

   28 Dei Filius: 3 DS 3008.

   29 Dei Filius: 3 DS 3009.

   30 Dei Filius: 3: DS 3008-3010; Cf. Mk 16 20; Heb 2:4.

   31 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II 171, 5, obj. 3.

   32 John Henry Cardinal Newman, Apologia pro vita sua (London Longman,
   1878) 239.

   33 St. Anselm, Prosl. prooem. PL 153 225A.

   34 Eph 1:18.

   35 DV 5.

   36 St. Augustine, Sermo 43, 7, 9: PL 38, 257-258.

   37 Dei Filius 4: DS 3017.

   38 GS 36 # 1.
   39 DH 10; cf. CIC, can. 748 # 2.

   40 DH 11.

   41 DH 11; cf. Jn 18:37; 12:32.

   42 Cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:36; 6:40 et al.

   43 Dei Filius 3: DS 3012; cf. Mt 10:22; 24: 13 and Heb 11:6; Council of
   Trent: DS 1532.

   44 1 Tim 1:18-19.

   45 Cf. Mk 9:24; Lk 17:5; 22:32

   46 Gal 5:6; Rom 15:13; cf. Jas 2:14-26.

   47 1 Cor 13:12; I Jn 3:2.

   48 St. Basil De Spiritu Sancto 15, 36: PG 32, 132; cf. St. Thomas Aquinas,
   STh II-II, 4, 1.

   49 2 Cor 5:7.

   50 l Cor 13:12.

   51 Rom 4:18.

   52 LG 58; John Paul II, RMat 18.

   53 Heb 12:1-2. Article 2

   54 Roman Ritual, Rite of Baptism of Adults.

   55 Faustus of Riez, De Spiritu Sancto 1, 2: PL 62, II.

   56 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 1,2, ad 2.

   57 I Tim 3:15; Jude 3.

   58 Cf. Eph 4:4-6.

   59 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. I, 10, 1-2: PG 7/1, 549-552.

   60 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. I, 10, 1-2: PG 7/1, 552-553.

   61 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 5, 20, I: PG 7/2, 1177.
   62 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 24, I: PG 7/1, 966.

11 posted on 07/15/2002 10:57:03 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333

II. "I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED"[16]

To believe in God alone

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.[17]

To believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God

151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him.[18] The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me."[19] We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."[20] Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.[21]

To believe in the Holy Spirit

152 One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For "no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit",[22] who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God."[23] Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God.

The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

12 posted on 07/15/2002 11:05:59 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333
Your #10: I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit after a debate last week on the subject and the argument presented was that they had a different interpretation of the bible. But as I pointed out, the Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise.

True, but if you are not careful in writing such a treatise, you can quickly depart from the Bible and go off in another direction, as they did in Nicea when trying to counter Arius.

I don't disagree at all with the Apostles' Creed (see #11), but the homoousion (one Being, one substance) in the Nicene Creed is not Biblical, and has led millions of Christians astray over the centuries, as far as having a correct understanding of the nature of God. It is not appropriate to elevate a creed, which is not the Word of God, to the level of Scripture.

We need to stick to the Word of God and to the apostles and prophets who have authority from God to write Scripture.

From the "God in Three Persons" link in #20: Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One office of a person cannot go to be with another office of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).

This argument against Modalism is an excellent argument against homoousion: "Because the Nicene Creed asserts that there is only one Being (or substance, Greek homoousios) in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages ..."

There are some important Bible passages that should be stressed:

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jesus explains how They are One:

John 17: 20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

They are separate Individuals (as in post #4) in three different places at the baptism of Jesus:

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

We are created in the image of God, male and female. This should be understood literally, not in the sense of spiritual image or moral image. It means we look like Him because He made us that way:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In both cases this is God the Father talking to God the Son, one Individual speaking to Another:

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:28
28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

Stephen saw them as separate Individuals just before he died:

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on [at] the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Now regarding John 4:24, Spirit is an attribute of God just as Love and Truth are. We are certainly not expected to leave our physical bodies to worship Him in spirit.

1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

My post to Gophack

LDS Topical Guide: Corporeal Nature of God

(I wouldn't call this a debate, especially not on such a gentle thread as this. I much prefer a cordial discussion.)

45 posted on 07/22/2002 3:28:04 AM PDT by White Mountain
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