Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Tulip6.htm ^ | Al Maxey

Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins

THE WRONG TEACHINGS OF MAN

According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."

Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."

Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).

"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).

VERSUS THE HOLY TEACHINGS OF GOD

Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.

QUESTION

This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?

Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).

John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).

Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."

James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).

Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

QUESTION

Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.

Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).

Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).

QUESTION

Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?

John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."

John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."

Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).

Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"

Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."

Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.

"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: choice; faith; grace; irresistible; resist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 561-580 next last
Since it is bible truth that God's grace can be resisted, that makes it BIBLICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it also to be true that God unalterably preselected some to heaven and some to hell before even the creation took place.

Why? If you unalterably select them to heaven (unconditional election) then NOTHING can make them NOT be in heaven. They will be there no matter what happens.

Since the Bible absolutely teaches that God's grace can be resisted, that means that any person can turn down God's offer of grace. That is, they can remain an unbeliver.

This situation can then occur: God selects Mr Y to go to heaven before Y is even born, before even the creation happens. Mr Y is finally born. He grows. HE CHOOSES to resist God's grace and remain an unbeliever.

That would give us the biblically impossible situation of an unbeliever in heaven. Unbeliever because he chose to resist. In heaven because he was preselected to be there and nothing can change that.

The entire calvinist system collapses around the bible truth that God's grace and the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

1 posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; ...
Ping for another list of scriptures arranged in an extremely helpful way. You will probably want this for your files, also.
2 posted on 07/25/2002 7:45:48 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins
I expect that I might file this.

Both you and the calvinists rely far too little on the Holy Spirit's guidance.

3 posted on 07/25/2002 3:01:40 PM PDT by zshhh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: zshhh
What? You think the Holy Spirit's going to say something that isn't in the bible?
4 posted on 07/25/2002 4:34:16 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: xzins
What? You think the Holy Spirit's going to say something that isn't in the bible?

I should hope so. The Holy Spirit is alive, well, and present, you know. The Holy Spirit speaks to His children about their own lives. That's material that isn't in the bible, you know.

5 posted on 07/25/2002 8:08:38 PM PDT by zshhh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: zshhh
This has very little to do with irresistible grace. (Except that the Holy Spirit is involved in "resistible grace" as the one being resisted.)

Let me ask you this about your saying the Holy Spirit speaks to His children. If I were standing next to you, would I hear him speaking to you? Or are you talking about "speaking to one's heart?"

6 posted on 07/25/2002 8:27:50 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: zshhh; xzins
I should hope so. The Holy Spirit is alive, well, and present, you know. The Holy Spirit speaks to His children about their own lives. That's material that isn't in the bible, you know.

No, all we need to know about God comes from the Scriptures, not directly from the Holy Spirit

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works (2Tim.3:15-17)
The Holy Spirit works through the scriptures, not directly through the individual.
7 posted on 07/26/2002 2:29:36 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Since the Bible absolutely teaches that God's grace can be resisted, that means that any person can turn down God's offer of grace. That is, they can remain an unbeliver.

Yes, remember Paul preaching to King Agrippa who was "almost persuaded" and all the rest he preached to, and some believed and some did not. Acts 28:24

8 posted on 07/26/2002 2:45:34 AM PDT by JesseShurun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
This is how one Calvinist describes Irresistable grace.
God, then, must do something in the sinner to make him willing(emphsis mine). And his he does through irresistable grace. Note that the text says 'unless the Father draw him' The Father sends the Spirit to 'draw' the sinner to Christ in a special way. Now, non-Calvinists may agree up to a point here. The usual view is that the Spirit draws all men who hear the Gospel. Well, the Spirit does draw all who hear, but not all in the same way (emphasis mine). The general calling (emphasis mine) is always resisted and rejected, but there is another calling, which is referred to here. It always wins....The point is simply this: when God sets out to save some one of the elect, He so works on his heart that he successfully overcomes all resistance. He irresistablly and efficaciously draws the sinner to Christ. It never fails....Irresistable Grace is simply the comination of electing grace and omnipotence. (The History and thelogy of Calvinism, Daniel, p.379-80)
What is important in this statement is how clever it is!

Irresistable grace changes the will so that the man wants to believe, thus, when we say that one must freely yield or assent, the Calvinist can say, 'we teach free will also'

Two, they also maintain that man does resist God in the general call.

Hence, knowing that the Scriptures teach that man has a will and a decision to make, the Calvinists very cleverly use the terms while distorting their meaning.

Thus, they can say with a straight face that man does have 'free will' 'must willingly believe' and 'can resist God', thus, you do not really understand Calvinism.

This is real 'Jesuit' stuff here!

Hence, you must always bring the debate back to its root, unconditional vs conditional election, since they have distorted every point of TULIP to make it mean whatever they choose it to mean.

9 posted on 07/26/2002 2:51:14 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: xzins
The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made.

---so says Al Maxey

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

---so says God

Take your pick! You can choose, you know, or you can resist, like your fathers Calvin, and Augustine.

Rom 13:2 ... and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

(I know Rom. 13:2 is talking about earthly govenment. It's not a proof text, I'm just borrowing the language. BUT, if resisting a worldy power brings damnation, how much more damnable is resisting heavenly power.)

Hank

10 posted on 07/26/2002 4:48:14 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Hank Kerchief
"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only!

The above includes the excerpt you quoted from Maxey. Recall that he is here explaining the calvinist view -- the wrong view proposed by man. He goes on in the 2nd section to propose the proper view taught by God in the bible.

I can't tell from your post if you caught that or not. If you did, I'm sorry.

If opposing government brings damnation, then it is paralleled by a higher order resistance that results in ultimate damnation -- to ultimately resist God is to result in not being saved.

11 posted on 07/26/2002 5:27:42 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration; Hank Kerchief; The Grammarian; Revelation 911
but there is another calling, which is referred to here. It always wins....The point is simply this: when God sets out to save some one of the elect, He so works on his heart that he successfully overcomes all resistance. He irresistablly and efficaciously draws the sinner to Christ. It never fails....Irresistable Grace is simply the comination of electing grace and omnipotence. (The History and thelogy of Calvinism, Daniel, p.379-80)

And it is this point that is wrong. It is wrong scripturally.

Since it's wrong, that means one of the so-called calvinist "elect" can resist, be an unbeliever, and STILL be in heaven because of calvin's horrible decree.

12 posted on 07/26/2002 5:31:26 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: JesseShurun
almost persuaded...

This does indicate that Agrippa was touched, convicted, and then resisted.

13 posted on 07/26/2002 5:34:03 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: xzins
If you believe that God can be resisted by man, then you have a man who is equal to or superior to God. Therefore, God is not transcendent over his creature. He would not be sovereign and He would be, therefore, no longer God.

Second, the operation of grace in the heart of an individual is such that the individual is made able and willing to believe. Therefore, the individual is irresistibly drawn to God. At the same time, the individual never does anything against his will. The person actually wants to be a Christian.

The doctrine of irresistible grace is such a comfort because it says that God will overcome any device erected by an individual to reconcile that person to God. If salvation depended on my assent to anything before God moved, then I would be lost.
14 posted on 07/26/2002 5:40:07 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Don'tMessWithTexas
If you believe that God can be resisted by man, then you have a man who is equal to or superior to God. Therefore, God is not transcendent over his creature. He would not be sovereign and He would be, therefore, no longer God.

I appreciate your believing what you believe.

I, though, am a bible literalist and I find many passages that say that people resisted God, but I find none that specifically say "God overcame so-and-so's will and forced him to believe."

There are numerous passages above that testify to individuals resisting the Lord. That means it is the correct teaching. There are many others not listed here.

As a matter of bible teaching the calvinist position lacks scriptural support.

15 posted on 07/26/2002 5:48:36 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: xzins
...he is here explaining the calvinist view -- the wrong view proposed by man. He goes on in the 2nd section to propose the proper view taught by God in the bible.

I can't tell from your post if you caught that or not....

I hadn't "caught that" when I posted, but did aftwards. You beat me to the correction however, which saves me the trouble, thanks!

My point remains the same, however.

Hank

16 posted on 07/26/2002 5:49:23 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: xzins
The teaching of the Bible is not merely what the Bible says literally. Many teachings are implied or derived by logical consequence. For example, there is no literal reference to the trinity in the Bible. According to your method of interpretation, God cannot be triune because there is no literal support for that conclusion. Until there is an agreement that some truths are based on good and necessary consequences, there is not much we can discuss on this topic.
17 posted on 07/26/2002 6:02:50 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Well said.

An eloquent Calvinist, Texan. Awesome.

Don't Mess with Don'tMessWithTexas!
18 posted on 07/26/2002 6:13:10 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Don'tMessWithTexas; Hank Kerchief; fortheDeclaration
There are verses that directly address the the unity of the F,S, HS. The word "trinity" is a man-made word to describe what the bible testifies to. I know some on these pages who prefer not to use it because it is a non-bible word; e.g., Hank who I bumped above. He believes in "3 in one" but he prefers to use bible language to explain bible teaching. Seems fair to me.

In the case of resisting the Lord, the Bible has numerous examples where that takes place, clearly and above board.

The bottom line is that "resistible grace" is a bible teaching. Resistible grace is absolutely incompatible with calvin's "unconditional election." It is totally compatible with the bible's "conditional election."

You seem like a fair person. As one guy said the other day, "We'll get together in heaven and chuckle over some of our earthly misunderstandings of doctrine." Then we'll know fully even as we are fully known.

19 posted on 07/26/2002 6:13:26 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Hi, DrJ. How's your LA morning? Did I tell you I have an AirForce son up in Shreveport? I'll probably visit him at some point in August.
20 posted on 07/26/2002 6:15:24 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 561-580 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson