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Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Tulip6.htm ^ | Al Maxey

Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins

THE WRONG TEACHINGS OF MAN

According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."

Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."

Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).

"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).

VERSUS THE HOLY TEACHINGS OF GOD

Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.

QUESTION

This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?

Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).

John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).

Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."

James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).

Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

QUESTION

Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.

Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).

Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).

QUESTION

Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?

John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."

John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."

Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).

Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"

Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."

Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.

"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: choice; faith; grace; irresistible; resist
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Since it is bible truth that God's grace can be resisted, that makes it BIBLICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it also to be true that God unalterably preselected some to heaven and some to hell before even the creation took place.

Why? If you unalterably select them to heaven (unconditional election) then NOTHING can make them NOT be in heaven. They will be there no matter what happens.

Since the Bible absolutely teaches that God's grace can be resisted, that means that any person can turn down God's offer of grace. That is, they can remain an unbeliver.

This situation can then occur: God selects Mr Y to go to heaven before Y is even born, before even the creation happens. Mr Y is finally born. He grows. HE CHOOSES to resist God's grace and remain an unbeliever.

That would give us the biblically impossible situation of an unbeliever in heaven. Unbeliever because he chose to resist. In heaven because he was preselected to be there and nothing can change that.

The entire calvinist system collapses around the bible truth that God's grace and the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

1 posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
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To: fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; ...
Ping for another list of scriptures arranged in an extremely helpful way. You will probably want this for your files, also.
2 posted on 07/25/2002 7:45:48 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
I expect that I might file this.

Both you and the calvinists rely far too little on the Holy Spirit's guidance.

3 posted on 07/25/2002 3:01:40 PM PDT by zshhh
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To: zshhh
What? You think the Holy Spirit's going to say something that isn't in the bible?
4 posted on 07/25/2002 4:34:16 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
What? You think the Holy Spirit's going to say something that isn't in the bible?

I should hope so. The Holy Spirit is alive, well, and present, you know. The Holy Spirit speaks to His children about their own lives. That's material that isn't in the bible, you know.

5 posted on 07/25/2002 8:08:38 PM PDT by zshhh
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To: zshhh
This has very little to do with irresistible grace. (Except that the Holy Spirit is involved in "resistible grace" as the one being resisted.)

Let me ask you this about your saying the Holy Spirit speaks to His children. If I were standing next to you, would I hear him speaking to you? Or are you talking about "speaking to one's heart?"

6 posted on 07/25/2002 8:27:50 PM PDT by xzins
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To: zshhh; xzins
I should hope so. The Holy Spirit is alive, well, and present, you know. The Holy Spirit speaks to His children about their own lives. That's material that isn't in the bible, you know.

No, all we need to know about God comes from the Scriptures, not directly from the Holy Spirit

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works (2Tim.3:15-17)
The Holy Spirit works through the scriptures, not directly through the individual.
7 posted on 07/26/2002 2:29:36 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: xzins
Since the Bible absolutely teaches that God's grace can be resisted, that means that any person can turn down God's offer of grace. That is, they can remain an unbeliver.

Yes, remember Paul preaching to King Agrippa who was "almost persuaded" and all the rest he preached to, and some believed and some did not. Acts 28:24

8 posted on 07/26/2002 2:45:34 AM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: xzins; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
This is how one Calvinist describes Irresistable grace.
God, then, must do something in the sinner to make him willing(emphsis mine). And his he does through irresistable grace. Note that the text says 'unless the Father draw him' The Father sends the Spirit to 'draw' the sinner to Christ in a special way. Now, non-Calvinists may agree up to a point here. The usual view is that the Spirit draws all men who hear the Gospel. Well, the Spirit does draw all who hear, but not all in the same way (emphasis mine). The general calling (emphasis mine) is always resisted and rejected, but there is another calling, which is referred to here. It always wins....The point is simply this: when God sets out to save some one of the elect, He so works on his heart that he successfully overcomes all resistance. He irresistablly and efficaciously draws the sinner to Christ. It never fails....Irresistable Grace is simply the comination of electing grace and omnipotence. (The History and thelogy of Calvinism, Daniel, p.379-80)
What is important in this statement is how clever it is!

Irresistable grace changes the will so that the man wants to believe, thus, when we say that one must freely yield or assent, the Calvinist can say, 'we teach free will also'

Two, they also maintain that man does resist God in the general call.

Hence, knowing that the Scriptures teach that man has a will and a decision to make, the Calvinists very cleverly use the terms while distorting their meaning.

Thus, they can say with a straight face that man does have 'free will' 'must willingly believe' and 'can resist God', thus, you do not really understand Calvinism.

This is real 'Jesuit' stuff here!

Hence, you must always bring the debate back to its root, unconditional vs conditional election, since they have distorted every point of TULIP to make it mean whatever they choose it to mean.

9 posted on 07/26/2002 2:51:14 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: xzins
The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made.

---so says Al Maxey

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

---so says God

Take your pick! You can choose, you know, or you can resist, like your fathers Calvin, and Augustine.

Rom 13:2 ... and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

(I know Rom. 13:2 is talking about earthly govenment. It's not a proof text, I'm just borrowing the language. BUT, if resisting a worldy power brings damnation, how much more damnable is resisting heavenly power.)

Hank

10 posted on 07/26/2002 4:48:14 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only!

The above includes the excerpt you quoted from Maxey. Recall that he is here explaining the calvinist view -- the wrong view proposed by man. He goes on in the 2nd section to propose the proper view taught by God in the bible.

I can't tell from your post if you caught that or not. If you did, I'm sorry.

If opposing government brings damnation, then it is paralleled by a higher order resistance that results in ultimate damnation -- to ultimately resist God is to result in not being saved.

11 posted on 07/26/2002 5:27:42 AM PDT by xzins
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To: fortheDeclaration; Hank Kerchief; The Grammarian; Revelation 911
but there is another calling, which is referred to here. It always wins....The point is simply this: when God sets out to save some one of the elect, He so works on his heart that he successfully overcomes all resistance. He irresistablly and efficaciously draws the sinner to Christ. It never fails....Irresistable Grace is simply the comination of electing grace and omnipotence. (The History and thelogy of Calvinism, Daniel, p.379-80)

And it is this point that is wrong. It is wrong scripturally.

Since it's wrong, that means one of the so-called calvinist "elect" can resist, be an unbeliever, and STILL be in heaven because of calvin's horrible decree.

12 posted on 07/26/2002 5:31:26 AM PDT by xzins
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To: JesseShurun
almost persuaded...

This does indicate that Agrippa was touched, convicted, and then resisted.

13 posted on 07/26/2002 5:34:03 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
If you believe that God can be resisted by man, then you have a man who is equal to or superior to God. Therefore, God is not transcendent over his creature. He would not be sovereign and He would be, therefore, no longer God.

Second, the operation of grace in the heart of an individual is such that the individual is made able and willing to believe. Therefore, the individual is irresistibly drawn to God. At the same time, the individual never does anything against his will. The person actually wants to be a Christian.

The doctrine of irresistible grace is such a comfort because it says that God will overcome any device erected by an individual to reconcile that person to God. If salvation depended on my assent to anything before God moved, then I would be lost.
14 posted on 07/26/2002 5:40:07 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
If you believe that God can be resisted by man, then you have a man who is equal to or superior to God. Therefore, God is not transcendent over his creature. He would not be sovereign and He would be, therefore, no longer God.

I appreciate your believing what you believe.

I, though, am a bible literalist and I find many passages that say that people resisted God, but I find none that specifically say "God overcame so-and-so's will and forced him to believe."

There are numerous passages above that testify to individuals resisting the Lord. That means it is the correct teaching. There are many others not listed here.

As a matter of bible teaching the calvinist position lacks scriptural support.

15 posted on 07/26/2002 5:48:36 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
...he is here explaining the calvinist view -- the wrong view proposed by man. He goes on in the 2nd section to propose the proper view taught by God in the bible.

I can't tell from your post if you caught that or not....

I hadn't "caught that" when I posted, but did aftwards. You beat me to the correction however, which saves me the trouble, thanks!

My point remains the same, however.

Hank

16 posted on 07/26/2002 5:49:23 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: xzins
The teaching of the Bible is not merely what the Bible says literally. Many teachings are implied or derived by logical consequence. For example, there is no literal reference to the trinity in the Bible. According to your method of interpretation, God cannot be triune because there is no literal support for that conclusion. Until there is an agreement that some truths are based on good and necessary consequences, there is not much we can discuss on this topic.
17 posted on 07/26/2002 6:02:50 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Well said.

An eloquent Calvinist, Texan. Awesome.

Don't Mess with Don'tMessWithTexas!
18 posted on 07/26/2002 6:13:10 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas; Hank Kerchief; fortheDeclaration
There are verses that directly address the the unity of the F,S, HS. The word "trinity" is a man-made word to describe what the bible testifies to. I know some on these pages who prefer not to use it because it is a non-bible word; e.g., Hank who I bumped above. He believes in "3 in one" but he prefers to use bible language to explain bible teaching. Seems fair to me.

In the case of resisting the Lord, the Bible has numerous examples where that takes place, clearly and above board.

The bottom line is that "resistible grace" is a bible teaching. Resistible grace is absolutely incompatible with calvin's "unconditional election." It is totally compatible with the bible's "conditional election."

You seem like a fair person. As one guy said the other day, "We'll get together in heaven and chuckle over some of our earthly misunderstandings of doctrine." Then we'll know fully even as we are fully known.

19 posted on 07/26/2002 6:13:26 AM PDT by xzins
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To: drstevej
Hi, DrJ. How's your LA morning? Did I tell you I have an AirForce son up in Shreveport? I'll probably visit him at some point in August.
20 posted on 07/26/2002 6:15:24 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
***The bottom line is that "resistible grace" is a bible teaching. Resistible grace is absolutely incompatible with calvin's "unconditional election." It is totally compatible with the bible's "conditional election." ***

-- Pope Xzins, ex cathedra

21 posted on 07/26/2002 6:15:38 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins
Come down for a cup of coffee when you are in Shreveport if you can. It would be fun to discuss theology or whatever face to face.

Steve
22 posted on 07/26/2002 6:18:01 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Come down for a cup of coffee when you are in Shreveport if you can. It would be fun to discuss theology or whatever face to face. Steve

I had thought about trying to catch you sermonize if schedule permitted. Are you always in the pulpit or do you rotate with other/others?

23 posted on 07/26/2002 6:23:45 AM PDT by xzins
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To: drstevej
***The bottom line is that "resistible grace" is a bible teaching. Resistible grace is absolutely incompatible with calvin's "unconditional election." It is totally compatible with the bible's "conditional election." *** -- Pope Xzins, ex cathedra

nope, brother xzins, ex biblia.

Kindness, DrJ, you're 'sposed to have a :-) after those kinds of posts.

24 posted on 07/26/2002 6:26:16 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
I guess my question is if the grace that saves is truly resistible is it really grace?
25 posted on 07/26/2002 7:31:21 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: xzins
Kindness, DrJ, you're 'sposed to have a :-) after those kinds of posts.

A belated :-) and a few for pennance

:-) :-)
:-) :-)
:-) :-)
:-) :-)
:-) :-)


26 posted on 07/26/2002 7:46:48 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Well, if I offer you a hundred dollar bill, and you turn it down, is it still a hundred dollar bill?
27 posted on 07/26/2002 8:54:28 AM PDT by xzins
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To: drstevej
now are those extra :-)'s sufficient for all, or effective for actual need?
28 posted on 07/26/2002 8:57:52 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
***now are those extra :-)'s sufficient for all, or effective for actual need? ***

Great line.
29 posted on 07/26/2002 9:31:35 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins
You are clever but you are confusing the offer with the gift. Hence, your analogy fails because you are assuming that salvation is not applied until the gift is accepted.

In fact, regeneration is applied by God's Spirit prior to the offer of salvation. That grace makes the individual able and willing to believe or accept the offer. Romans teaches that by nature no one seeketh after God. By nature, no one wants to be saved. Hence, no one can accept the offer of salvation unless they are regenerated and made willing to accept the offer. A salvation that can be accepted or rejected by a sinner is a salvation that is earned. This is so because it is predicated on the autonomous ability to accept the offer. Grace that is earned thereby is not grace.

A dollar bill that is rejected is still a dollar bill bill. But grace that is earned is not grace. If there was something in the person that gave them the power to accept the offer, then salvation would be predicated on the inherent ability to accept that offer. Salvation would be based on something meritorious in the individual. Hence, the gift would no longer be of grace.

You raise a curious and clever argument. Unfortunately, you are slipping dangerously into pelagianism. Be careful my friend.

30 posted on 07/26/2002 10:13:04 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: xzins
Still waiting for an answer to this xzins

To: RnMomof7

He paid the price for all, but it is only effective for those who accept the free gift. Some don't accept the gift, so they are lost. That is what I teach. If He paid the price for all men how can God make some men pay again for the sin that is already paid for? That is my question to you X


Let me say it again another way, Rn. The amount paid was more than enough to pay for everyone if everyone decided to accept the gift. None would have been turned away for lack of funds.

The price was effective only for those who received the free gift.


IN about 76/77 President Carter declared a provisional amnesty for MILITARY RESISTERS of the Vietnam War. The amnesty applied to every military resister. However, of the thousands eligible, only about 5000 actually applied.

That left the non-applicants legally liable for prosecution. If left those who had accepted the amnesty, free and clear and able to resume their lives as full American citizens.

You're old enough to be part of the Vietnam generation. You probably remember this event.

285 posted on 7/25/02 11:44 PM Eastern by xzins
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To: xzins

Let me say it again another way, Rn. The amount paid was more than enough to pay for everyone if everyone decided to accept the gift. None would have been turned away for lack of funds.

So Jesus did not REALLY save anyone with His blood on the cross then..he simply deposited his blood in the Blood bank in case it would ever be wanted? It was not finished then?

286 posted on 7/25/02 11:58 PM Eastern by RnMomof7
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31 posted on 07/26/2002 3:13:49 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Well, if I offer you a hundred dollar bill, and you turn it down, is it still a hundred dollar bill?

Irrevelent ...Jesus gave that 100 dollar bill to the banker for your debt...it was marked paid in full...

So will the JUST God demand to burn in hell for an unpaid bill that his son already paid?

32 posted on 07/26/2002 3:16:13 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins; Don'tMessWithTexas
You seem like a fair person. As one guy said the other day, "We'll get together in heaven and chuckle over some of our earthly misunderstandings of doctrine." Then we'll know fully even as we are fully known.

There are lots of folks that think they have saved themselves..to them Jesus says

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

33 posted on 07/26/2002 3:20:14 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
but there is another calling, which is referred to here. It always wins....The point is simply this: when God sets out to save some one of the elect, He so works on his heart that he successfully overcomes all resistance. He irresistablly and efficaciously draws the sinner to Christ. It never fails....Irresistable Grace is simply the comination of electing grace and omnipotence. (The History and thelogy of Calvinism, Daniel, p.379-80)
And it is this point that is wrong. It is wrong scripturally.

Would you point me to your "God is my co pilot" scripture?

34 posted on 07/26/2002 3:27:48 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
To finish the analogy: If God offers grace to Mr Y, and Mr Y turns it down, it is still grace.

Your post assumes the philosophical argument that guides calvinism and then uses it to justify irresistible grace.

The above post presents the bible information on times when grace has been resisted and then builds a doctrine.

35 posted on 07/26/2002 3:57:25 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; Don'tMessWithTexas
To finish the analogy: If God offers grace to Mr Y, and Mr Y turns it down, it is still grace.

So the cross accomplished nothing? It was only a bid on your soul? ...Going once going twice...oppps withdrawn from the auction?

I thought the debt was paid at the cross..do you have scripture to say it was not?

36 posted on 07/26/2002 5:45:12 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
I have been wanting to give you a more complete response. This is not as well researched as I would like, but I think it provides a foundation of sorts.

This evening our family read Psalm 11. In that Psalm, God is described as having eyes and eyelids. Other scriptures refer to the arms or hands of God. John 4 clearly teaches that God is a spirit and hence does not have a body like men. Which is true? There is an apparent contradiction. But we know that the Bible is consistent.

You read and cite scripture that supports what appears to be a teaching that God's grace can be resisted. However, we must interpret those verses you cite in light of other verses. You mention individuals rejected God and would have appeared to have successfully rejected his grace.

In Romans 9, Paul specifically deals with the issue of God's sovereignty in salvation. In v. 14 Paul says, "Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." v. 15 ...but I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I ill have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth of him that runneth, but of God who shows mercy." In other words, one cannot become a child of God relying on the strength of their will.

v.18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy and whom he will hardeneth." Wait a minute. My...you mean God actually hardens the hearts of men? And he has compassion only on those whom he wills? Yes. As a result some men will reject God, just as Pharoah actually rejected the pleas of Moses and Aaron. But who actually hardened his heart? Check Exodus and you will find that God did. And hence, we touch one of the greatest of mysteries. God hardens the heart of men, yet those men still remain absolutely responsible for his sin. Conversely, all those whom God has chosen will be saved. Romans 8:30 says "For whom he did predestinate, them he also called (called through the preaching of the gospel):and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." There is no hint here that anyone chosen by God will be able to successfully resist Him.

Let's also look at John 6:37 and 39. "All that the Father hath given me shall come to me; and him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out." "And this is the father's will which he hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

The scripture says that all that the Father hath given unto the Son in the covenant of redemption will effectually come unto the Son. That leaves no room for being able to successfully resist the grace of God. All those given unto the Son in the predestinating grace of God, will ultimately come unto the Son. This is reinforced in v. 39 when the Lord states that of all that the Father hath given unto the Son, he would lose nothing. No room for being able to successfully resist the grace of God.

The only remaining question is whether those who are not predestinated actually receive a full free and unfettered offer of Christ in the gospel. That is a very difficult question, but the answer is yes. They receive a genuine offer but they are unwilling to receive that offer due to the fact that they are dead in their sins. And they are dead in their sins due to their own depravity and sinfulness. They only difference between the saved and the unsaved person is that God in his mercy willed that one would be a vessel of honor and the other a vessel of dishonor. The vessel of dishonor, however, has no claim of unrighteousness against God. Romans 9:20: Shall the thing formed say unto him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? v.21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel of honor and another unto dishonor. All this is that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory. v. 23.

Therefore, the elect person will never be able to resist the will of God. The non-elect God has no compassion on, he actually hardens his heart as he rejects God. And in the end that condemned soul has no complaint against God for making him the way he is because God is absolutely sovereign in predestination to show mercy on whom He wills.

Arminians and pelagians will try to pull the threads of these doctrines apart. But that cannot be done. The gospel is an interdependent whole. Similarly, the Bible presents a complete tapestry of God's grace that cannot be picked apart according to our whim.

May God bless you.

37 posted on 07/26/2002 6:28:57 PM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
A good summary of the points consistently rejected by our Freeper Arminians.

Perhaps a sovereign God will open eyes and ears to receive these truths. He did for me!

Thanks,
drstevej
38 posted on 07/26/2002 6:33:51 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
If a man simply reads the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, the sovereignty and transcendence of God leap off of every page. The thing that convinced me of the doctrines of grace was not so much the reading but the simple logical consistency of scripture.
39 posted on 07/26/2002 6:59:26 PM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Excellent post ...so glad we have met this week..
40 posted on 07/26/2002 6:59:34 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Allow me to summarize your points.

Texas says:
1. The bible sometimes has apparent contradictions.
2. Scripture citing resistance to grace is one of those contradictions.
3. You cite Ro 9:14-15 as meaning that human will is not a component in God's mercy.
4. You cite Ro 9:18 to mean that God prevented Pharaoh from doing God's bidding. You cite Ro 8:30 to mean that the predestinated cannot resist.
5. You cite John 6:37-39 to mean that the predestinated can do nothing but come to Jesus.
6. You cite Ro 9:20 to support total inability.
7. You summarize by saying that the elect cannot resist and that the non-elect are hardened.
8. You conclude saying that arminians finding verses that teach resistance is only a partial picture.

So, have I summarized your post fairly well? What would you modify in my summation?

41 posted on 07/26/2002 8:08:48 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; CCWoody; Don'tMessWithTexas
Are you planning another chart Xzins?

I have asked you several times in the last few days if in your opinion /doctrine the blood at the cross has no effect? Is it simply a potential salvation? Is it a blood in the bank?

You have in the past expressed that pas means all men without exception.

So I am trying to figure out what is it you really believe

Did Christ die on the cross for the sins of all men every where without exception? ( a universal salvation for all men that is complete)

Or do you believe as you now seem to be saying believe that he actually did not die for anyone at all..that the cross was simply an opportunity for salvation?

42 posted on 07/26/2002 8:18:25 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; drstevej; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; P-Marlowe
Are you planning another chart Xzins?.... Or do you believe as you now seem to be saying believe that he actually did not die for anyone at all..that the cross was simply an opportunity for salvation?

Ask a real question based on things I've actually said or based on my real beliefs and I'll respond to you. I don't deal with personal attacks and I don't deal with chaff.

43 posted on 07/26/2002 8:22:29 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; CCWoody; Don'tMessWithTexas; Jerry_M; the_doc; drstevej; Dr. Eckleburg; Jean Chauvin; ...
42 was a real set of questions xzins..you have said you believe that Jesus died for all men. That is Universalism

Now you say that the cross is like money in the bank..not effective untill withdrawn.That in effect ino man was really saved on Calvery

So you move from a Universal atonment to a non atonement and you act insulted when some one asked you what it is you really believe about the atonement.

Was it for all on that day on Calvery? Was it only potential or was it actual?

For months now you have ragged on the Calvinists tell us all means all..now you say all means none..

It is a legitimate to ask is it all means all? Or is that just an expression ?

44 posted on 07/26/2002 8:32:55 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Or is that just an expression?

So much of the Arminians' beliefs are "expressions"...of feelings, emotions, good intentions.

The logic of your questions reflects the strength of Calvinism.

45 posted on 07/27/2002 1:05:15 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: xzins
1. The bible sometimes has apparent contradictions.

The Bible contains statements that would appear to be contradictory, but they cannot be because God is not a God of confusion. Any apparent contradiction can and must be harmonized using other passages of scripture.

2. Scripture citing resistance to grace is one of those contradictions

No, the scriptures you cite indicating that one can resist the grace of God would appear, without the introduction of other truths, to present an apparent contradiction. The problem with your posts however is that you don't attempt to reconcile the apparent contradiction. For example someone who advocates the fact that God is a spirit must attempt to harmonize those verse indicating that God has body parts. That person cannot insist that those verses do not belong in the Bible or cannot be true.

3. You cite Ro 9:14-15 as meaning that human will is not a component in God's mercy.

Romans 9 v.15 says ...but I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I ill have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth of him that runneth, but of God who shows mercy." Therefore, it is clear from the text that one cannot become a child of God based on the strength or exercise of their will.

4. You cite Ro 9:18 to mean that God prevented Pharaoh from doing God's bidding.

No. You misstated the point. God did not prevent Pharoah from doing His bidding. God hardened Pharoah and that was his bidding. God hardens whom he will harden for his own glory. And shows mercy to whom he will have mercy for His own glory. Therfore God is glorified not only in the salvation of sinners, but also in their judgment and punishment.

You cite Ro 8:30 to mean that the predestinated cannot resist.

Romans 8:30 says "For whom he did predestinate, them he also called (called through the preaching of the gospel):and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Again, there is no hint here that anyone chosen by God will be able to successfully resist Him, all will be called, justified and ultimately glorified.

5. You cite John 6:37-39 to mean that the predestinated can do nothing but come to Jesus.

Simply read the text and don't attempt to rephrase it. It doesn't say that the predestinated can do "nothing but come to Jesus." That implies fatalism. Here we go again. "All that the Father hath given me shall come to me; and him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out." "And this is the father's will which he hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." The scripture says that all that the Father hath given unto the Son will come unto the Son. If all come, and as we saw in Romans that all those predestined will come and ultimately be glorified, that leaves absolutely no room for a predestinated person being able to successfully resist the grace of God.

6. You cite Ro 9:20 to support total inability.

No. Romans 9:20 is cited to show that the non-elect cannot make any claim of unrighteousness against God for making them a vessel of dishonor. Again, look at the verse. "Shall the thing formed say unto him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? v.21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel of honor and another unto dishonor. All this is that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory. v. 23.


7. You summarize by saying that the elect cannot resist and that the non-elect are hardened.

8. You conclude saying that arminians finding verses that teach resistance is only a partial picture.

Because of God's predestinating love for the elect and the immutability of the covenant of redemption made between the Father and the Son, the elect person will never be able to successfully resist the will of God. That person will be brought to God. All those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son. Because God has not bestowed His compassion on the non-elect, the non-elect rejects God. However, that rejection is not so much a reaction to His gracious calling as a statement of his native depravity. No man seeketh after God. As that man continues in his rejection of God, God sovereignly can choose to harden him as part of his judgment.



46 posted on 07/27/2002 5:21:05 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Excellent post...

One of the things that non Calvinists like to say is that the Irrestible Grace of God has turned us into robots , and that only a free will salvation has any value

What they fail to understand is that the Grace of God does not bind us and make us automatons, but His love has instead turned us into his friends.
(Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. )

That grace is "infallible and certain" but it is that way because God conquers our heart by" loving persuasion".

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

The most amazing thing to me Tex is that every man that is saved was wooed by that grace and yieled to it..If my Arminian brothers and sisters asked thmeself what was different on the day they repented and believed..my guess would be an overwhelming presence of the love of God wooed and converted them

47 posted on 07/27/2002 8:30:55 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Revelation 911
see #43
48 posted on 07/27/2002 9:08:09 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; drstevej
I suspect that you know it is a real question xzins one that leaves gaps in what you believe .

I do not see how you reconcile your two statements.

Did Christ die for all men?. Does all mean all of every kind? Or was it not an atonemet at all? Was it simple an opportunity for the men that figured it out to be saved?

You know this is an important doctrinal question posed with my usual two left feet..but it is the basis of what we believe

If you do not want to explain what you believe and why you believe it I think there is a spot for you at hobbits hole :>)

49 posted on 07/27/2002 9:15:29 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas; fortheDeclaration; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
1. I agree with your #1 response.
2. We agree that the entire Bible is in harmony.
3. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture in #3.
4. You say, God hardened Pharoah and that was his bidding. Is the "his" referring to God or Pharaoh? That is, are you saying "God hardened Pharaoh and that was God's bidding?" Or are you saying, "God hardened Pharaoh and that was Pharaoh's bidding?"
5. all those predestined will come and ultimately be glorified. You say this is the interpretation of the John 6 verses. Is that correct?
6. You cite Romans 9:20 to say, non-elect cannot make any claim of unrighteousness against God for making them a vessel of dishonor. How is that not the same as total inability?
7. You left it intact, so I understood correctly. We disagree.
8. You leave 8 intact, agreeing with it, but adding that total depravity is the reason they are not able to seek God. We disagree.

Can you clarify #'s 4,5,6?

50 posted on 07/27/2002 9:23:21 AM PDT by xzins
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