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Our Lady Of Guadalupe
July 29, 2002

Posted on 07/29/2002 6:21:47 AM PDT by NYer

In 1929, Alfonso Marcue, who was the official photographer of the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, found what seemed to be a clear image of a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin. Initially he did not believe what was before his eyes. How could it be? A bearded man inside of the eyes of the Virgin?. After many inspections of many of his black and white photographs he had no doubts and decided to inform the authorities of the Basilica. He was told that time to keep complete silence about the discovery, which he did.

More than 20 years later, on May 29, 1951, Jose Carlos Salinas Chavez, examining a good photograph of the face, rediscovers the image of what clearly appears to be a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin, and locates it on the left eye too.

ALT="Our Lady of Guadalupe Image. Detail of the right eye showing a "bearded man"" WIDTH="140" HEIGHT="220" BORDER="0">
"Bearded man".

CENTER> "Bearded man".

Since then, many people had the opportunity to inspect closely the eyes of the Virgin on the tilma, including more than 20 physicians, ophthalmologists.

The first one, on March 27, 1956, was Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno, MDS, a prestigious ophthalmologist. In what is the first report on the eyes of the image issued by a physician, he certifies the presence of the triple reflection (Samson-Purkinje effect) characteristic of all live human eyes and states that the resulting images are located exactly where they are supossed to be according to such effect, and also that the distortion of the images agree with the curvature of the cornea.

The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely "alive" when examined.

Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.

Images found in the right eye of the Virgin on the tilma through digital analysis
According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family".

But a new and fascinating kind of analysis of the eyes started in 1979, when Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, graduated from Cornell University, while working in IBM scanned at very high resolutions a very good photograph, taken from the original, of the face on the tilma. After filtering and processing the digitized images of the eyes to eliminate "noise" and enhance them, he made some astonishing discoveries: not only the "human bust" was clearly present in both eyes, but another human figures were seen as reflected in the eyes too!

Dr. Aste Tonsmann published his last studies on the eyes on the tilma in the book "El Secreto de sus Ojos", with complete details and photographs of his work . Perhaps one of the most fascinating aspects of the studies is his conclusion that Our Lady of Guadalupe not only left us her miraculous image as proof of her apparition but some important messages too. These messages were hidden in the eyes on the image until our times, when new technologies would allow them to be discovered, when they are most necessary.

The family

That would be the case with the image of a family in the center of the Virgin's eye, in times when families are under serious attack in our modern world. The image of various human figures that seem to constitute a family, including various children and a baby carried in the woman's back as used in the 16th century, appears in the center of the pupil, as shown in this great image of the right eye highlighting the family, generously provided by Dr. Tonsmann.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: bvm; guadalupe; juandiego; virgineyes

1 posted on 07/29/2002 6:21:47 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Siobhan; american colleen; sinkspur; Aliska; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...
Fascinating, isn't it? Juan Diego, or whatever name they wish to give him, would still be an excellent candidate for sainthood.
2 posted on 07/29/2002 6:24:03 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Wow!
3 posted on 07/29/2002 7:13:17 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: NYer
Amazing...

I was on a tour of Europe, one of 4 RCs in a group of 24. We went to Notre Dame. Like so many cathedrals in the name of Our Lady, there are chapels, one for every continent and there is one for Our Lady of Guadalupe. There's more, but that one I REALLY remember. One of the people on this tour asked is I knew anything about this. She had never heard of this. And I'm thinking...well, yeah. Anyway, I told her the story, and this woman was amazed at the amount of detail to the story, the roses (the flowers were roses, right?), the garment, and asked why I believed. And so I told her about the eyes. How can you not believe?
4 posted on 07/29/2002 7:56:56 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: NYer
Just realized that I forgot to include the pictures. Here they are:

1.
There's a bearded man in this photo.


Here's a closer look at the bearded man.


According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we see "the Indian", "Bishop Zumarraga", "the translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma", and "the family"


The Family

5 posted on 07/29/2002 8:12:49 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Guadalupe is a beautiful and awe-inspiring apparition of Our Lady and it has lead hundreds of thousands to the one true faith. Indeed, a number of popes have also supported the belief in the miracle. However, I wish there were independent scientific studies to lend credence to Dr. Tonsmann’s relatively recent findings.
6 posted on 07/29/2002 8:29:43 AM PDT by Sock
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To: Sock
There are. Many of them. Time permitting I'll find and post them.
7 posted on 07/29/2002 8:37:36 AM PDT by narses
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To: NYer
The underlying image is inexplicably applied -- it floats on the surface of the tilma like a photographic emulsion -- to which several human additions have been made. In addition to being a beautiful piece of iconography, it unofficially serves as the national symbol of Mexico.
8 posted on 07/29/2002 9:28:48 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: eastsider
The underlying image is inexplicably applied -- it floats on the surface of the tilma like a photographic emulsion

Are you familiar with the image of Our Lady of Good Counsel? It is a fresco which was miraculously removed from a church in Albania, transported in a cloud, across the Adriatic Sea and then across Italy to the small town of Genazzano, just outside of Rome. Like the Guadalupe image, it also floats above the wall of its new church.

I caught the story on one of the EWTN, Miracle of the Cross programs with Bob and Penny Lord. I had already visited the House of the Blessed Mother in Loretto but not this church in Genazzano.

9 posted on 07/29/2002 10:32:46 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Are you familiar with the image of Our Lady of Good Counsel?
No, I am not. Thanks to Ted Turner, we are EWTN-challenged in NYC. I have been to the basilica in Mexico City, however, and managed to squeeze in between two of the moving observations ramps to pray a 15-decade rosary. I got a good, long look at the tilma. It's beautiful.
10 posted on 07/29/2002 11:47:37 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: eastsider
I got a good, long look at the tilma. It's beautiful.

The story of Our Lady of Guadalupe is so interesting, especially when Juan Diego is told to pick flowers from the frozen ground. The BVM arranges them in his tilma and sends him back to the bishop to request that a church be built on that spot. This is a painting of Juan Diego showing the tilma, with flowers, to the bishop. Interesting to view the scene, from the bishop's perspective.


11 posted on 07/29/2002 12:38:39 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Do you have a source URL so I can view the photos?
12 posted on 07/29/2002 1:21:46 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: NYer
Our Lady of Guadalupe is also known as Patroness of the Americas. Her feast day is Dec. 12....I believe this was the date of the Supreme Court decision in 2000. Not a mere coincidence IMHO.
13 posted on 07/29/2002 1:29:57 PM PDT by Litany
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To: HumanaeVitae
Juan Diego bump!
14 posted on 07/29/2002 1:30:15 PM PDT by NYer
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html
15 posted on 07/29/2002 1:31:44 PM PDT by Litany
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
Do you have a source URL so I can view the photos?

Smedley ... this is totally beyond my comprehension. Twice today, I posted the photos, which later disappeared. I was about to ask someone else to post the pictures, when they reappeared! (I am not making this up!).

Please take this link and see if you can repost the pictures here. They were right up there a short time ago ... but, now they're gone! http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html

16 posted on 07/29/2002 1:35:58 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Litany
Thank you.
17 posted on 07/29/2002 2:15:45 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: NYer
I believe you, honest. Sometimes funky things happen.
18 posted on 07/29/2002 2:17:10 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: NYer
Very interesting. The bearded figure was, I believe, originally thought to be a Spaniard, and not Juan Diego (who was an Indian, and therefore had no beard).

I think that because of Mexican racial unease, Juan Diego has become progressively less Indian. I recally reading a few days ago that most of the devotional pictures of him show somebody with fair skin and a beard. The producer of this material said he made it because that was what the buyers wanted.

Very odd. But if you've ever spent any time in Mexico (as I have), you'll learn very fast that Mexicans make a big distinction between folks of European origin (not necessarily Spanish, since there are also many people of French, Irish, English and German origin who have been Mexicans for generations) and Indians. Unfortunately, I think the tendency of the Mexican government to make special allowances for Indians and give them special benefits has only made the animosity worse.

Juan Diego could be a powerful symbol of unity and equality before God, but somehow, I don't think this is what is happening right now.

19 posted on 07/29/2002 2:33:52 PM PDT by livius
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To: NYer
Oh, now you went and done it.

"Listen and let it penetrate your heart, my dear little son. Do no be troubled or weighed down with grief. Do not fear any illness or vexation, anxiety or pain. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle? In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?"

The words of Our Lady of Guadalupe to (soon to be) St. Juan Diego Dec. 12th 1531

Cried like a baby the first time I read them.

Bump for Our Lady of Guadalupe

20 posted on 07/29/2002 2:42:57 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: NYer
Thank you for the post.I can hardly wait for the Holy Father to canonize Juan Diego.
21 posted on 07/29/2002 2:58:06 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: NYer
Here's EWTN's beautiful webpage:



22 posted on 07/29/2002 4:41:18 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: Litany
In addition to being the patroness of the Americas Our Lady of Guadalupe is also the patroness of the unborn.
23 posted on 07/29/2002 5:31:36 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: NYer

Can't see any pic.


24 posted on 11/23/2005 8:19:26 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: NYer

Maybe we have sources, because all we are getting is big black blobs.


25 posted on 11/23/2005 8:36:47 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer; SMEDLEYBUTLER
The Mystery in Our Lady's eyes

Our Lady of Guadalupe Image. Enlarged photograph of the right eye showing a "bearded" man
"Bearded man" image in the right eye.
Rose According to many scientists who have inspected the image we can see reflected in her eyes, in both of them and in the precise location as reflected by a live human eye, many figures that have been extensively analyzed and seem to correspond to the shape and size of human figures located in front of the image.

In 1929, Alfonso Marcue, who was the official photographer of the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, found what seemed to be a clear image of a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin. Initially he did not believe what was before his eyes. How could it be? A bearded man inside of the eyes of the Virgin?. After many inspections of many of his black and white photographs he had no doubts and decided to inform the authorities of the Basilica. He was told that time to keep complete silence about the discovery, which he did.
More than 20 years later, on May 29, 1951, Jose Carlos Salinas Chavez, examining a good photograph of the face, rediscovers the image of what clearly appears to be a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin, and locates it on the left eye too.

Our Lady of Guadalupe Image. Detail of the right eye showing a "bearded man"
"Bearded man".
Since then, many people had the opportunity to inspect closely the eyes of the Virgin on the tilma, including more than 20 physicians, ophthalmologists.
The first one, on March 27, 1956, was Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno, MDS, a prestigious ophthalmologist. In what is the first report on the eyes of the image issued by a physician, he certifies the presence of the triple reflection (Samson-Purkinje effect) characteristic of all live human eyes and states that the resulting images are located exactly where they are supossed to be according to such effect, and also that the distortion of the images agree with the curvature of the cornea.
The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely "alive" when examined.
Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.

Images found in the right eye of the Virgin on the tilma through digital analysis
According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family".
But a new and fascinating kind of analysis of the eyes started in 1979, when Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, graduated from Cornell University, while working in IBM scanned at very high resolutions a very good photograph, taken from the original, of the face on the tilma. After filtering and processing the digitized images of the eyes to eliminate "noise" and enhance them, he made some astonishing discoveries: not only the "human bust" was clearly present in both eyes, but another human figures were seen as reflected in the eyes too!
Dr. Aste Tonsmann published his last studies on the eyes on the tilma in the book "El Secreto de sus Ojos", with complete details and photographs of his work . Perhaps one of the most fascinating aspects of the studies is his conclusion that Our Lady of Guadalupe not only left us her miraculous image as proof of her apparition but some important messages too. These messages were hidden in the eyes on the image until our times, when new technologies would allow them to be discovered, when they are most necessary.
The family That would be the case with the image of a family in the center of the Virgin's eye, in times when families are under serious attack in our modern world. The image of various human figures that seem to constitute a family, including various children and a baby carried in the woman's back as used in the 16th century, appears in the center of the pupil, as shown in this great image of the right eye highlighting the family, generously provided by Dr. Tonsmann.

26 posted on 11/23/2005 8:40:16 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Well, I tried it too, and in the preview the pictures were there and now all I see are black rectangles. However as I post this, I can once again see the pictures.

Strange, isn't it?

Maybe everyone needs to try a post and see if the pictures show up below the posting box.......??????


27 posted on 11/23/2005 8:43:09 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer; All
American Catholic’s Saint of the Day

 

December 12, 2006
Our Lady of Guadalupe

The feast in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe goes back to the sixteenth century. Chronicles of that period tell us the story.

A poor Indian named Cuauhtlatohuac was baptized and given the name Juan Diego. He was a 57-year-old widower and lived in a small village near Mexico City. On Saturday morning, December 9, 1531, he was on his way to a nearby barrio to attend Mass in honor of Our Lady.

He was walking by a hill called Tepeyac when he heard beautiful music like the warbling of birds. A radiant cloud appeared and within it a young Native American maiden dressed like an Aztec princess. The lady spoke to him in his own language and sent him to the bishop of Mexico, a Franciscan named Juan de Zumarraga. The bishop was to build a chapel in the place where the lady appeared.

Eventually the bishop told Juan Diego to have the lady give him a sign. About this same time Juan Diego’s uncle became seriously ill. This led poor Diego to try to avoid the lady. The lady found Diego, nevertheless, assured him that his uncle would recover and provided roses for Juan to carry to the bishop in his cape or tilma.

When Juan Diego opened his tilma in the bishop’s presence, the roses fell to the ground and the bishop sank to his knees. On Juan Diego’s tilma appeared an image of Mary as she had appeared at the hill of Tepeyac. It was December 12, 1531.

Comment:

Mary's appearance to Juan Diego as one of his people is a powerful reminder that Mary and the God who sent her accept all peoples. In the context of the sometimes rude and cruel treatment of the Indians by the Spaniards, the apparition was a rebuke to the Spaniards and an event of vast significance for Native Americans. While a number of them had converted before this incident, they now came in droves. According to a contemporary chronicler, nine million Indians became Catholic in a very short time. In these days when we hear so much about God's preferential option for the poor, Our Lady of Guadalupe cries out to us that God's love for and identification with the poor is an age-old truth that stems from the Gospel itself.

Quote:

Mary to Juan Diego: “My dearest son, I am the eternal Virgin Mary, Mother of the true God, Author of Life, Creator of all and Lord of the Heavens and of the Earth...and it is my desire that a church be built here in this place for me, where, as your most merciful Mother and that of all your people, I may show my loving clemency and the compassion that I bear to the Indians, and to those who love and seek me...” (from an ancient chronicle).



28 posted on 12/12/2006 9:59:18 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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