They find a way to make every belief held in Catholicism heretical.
I think our objections are when the RC church invents things, which it seems like they do fairly often. Both our church and the protestants want to see it either in Holy Scripture or as the tradition of the very early church,ie the ecumenical councils.
posted on 08/06/2002 12:05:31 PM PDT
For Martin Luther, Mary's Assumption was an understood fact, as his homily of 1522 indicates, in spite of the fact that Mary's Assumption is not expressly reported in Sacred Scripture. For Protestant reformer, Martin Butzer (1545), there was no reason to doubt about the Assumption of the Virgin into heavenly glory. "Indeed, no Christian doubts that the most worthy Mother of the Lord lives with her beloved Son in heavenly joy." H. Bullinger (1590), also a Protestant reformer, sought for a theological foundation for the Assumption in Scripture.He showed that the Old Testament tells of Elias, taken to heaven bodily to teach us about our immortality, and because of our immortal soul to respectfully honor the bodies of the saints. Against this backdrop he states, "Because of this, we believe that the pure immaculate chamber of the God-bearer, the Virgin Mary, is a temple of the Holy Spirit, that is her holy body, borne by angels into heaven." (Marienlexikon, vol l3, 200)
Mar, I think you forgot to take a swing at some protestants also. Some, naturally, also believed in The Assumption. Care to step back into the batter's box?
Well why don't you outline them for me. Better yet, why don't you refute the article with your doctrine. I mean it's easy to come on a thread and spout off about how we make things up and are heretical, but as of yet you haven't offered a shred of debate. I'll make it easy for you by narrowing some of it down, then we can tackle the rest of the article.
Does not the objector consider that Eve was created, or born, without original sin? Why does not this shock him? Would he have been inclined to worship Eve in that first estate of hers? Why, then, Mary?
Have any rebuttal?
3. Does he not believe that St. John Baptist had the grace of God--i.e., was regenerated, even before his birth? What do we believe of Mary, but that grace was given her at a still earlier period? All we say is, that grace was given her from the first moment of her existence.
And you say?
4. We do not say that she did not owe her salvation to the death of her Son. Just the contrary, we say that she, of all mere children of Adam, is in the truest sense the fruit and the purchase of His Passion. He has done for her more than for anyone else. To others He gives grace and regeneration at a point in their earthly existence; to her, from the very beginning.
5. We do not make her nature different from others. Though, as St. Austin says, we do not like to name her in the same breath with mention of sin, yet, certainly she would have been a frail being, like Eve, without the grace of God. A more abundant gift of grace made her what she was from the first. It was not her nature which secured her perseverance, but the excess of grace which hindered Nature acting as Nature ever will act. There is no difference in kind between her and us, though an inconceivable difference in degree. She and we are both simply saved by the grace of Christ.
Thus, sincerely speaking, I really do not see what the difficulty is, and should like it set down distinctly in words. I will add that the above statement is no private statement of my own. I never heard of any Catholic who ever had any other view. I never heard of any other put forth by anyone.
posted on 08/06/2002 12:54:33 PM PDT
Ephraim the Syrian
"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:2230 [A.D. 387]).
The First, Second, and Third Ecumenical Councils were Nicea, Constantinople, and Epheseus, right? 325, 381, and 431 A.D., right? So is Ephraim early enough for you? Or is St. Ambrose just making this stuff up?
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