Lavish ceremonies, harsh criticism await new $200m cathedral in LA

BOSTON GLOBE ^ | August 31, 2002 | Kathleen Sharp

[NYer]

LOS ANGELES - Against a backdrop of criticism for its timing and its guest list, the Los Angeles Archdiocese on Monday will open its new, $200 million downtown landmark, the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.

The opening will be marked by an invitation-only Mass and three-hour blessing ritual, with about 3,000 guests. They include large financial donors, craftsmen, and construction workers who helped erect the cathedral, as well as 500 priests and 600 lay people. An elite group of dignitaries and Catholics will witness the ceremonies, which will feature Nigerian musicians, Scottish drummers, and Vietnamese singers.

[NYer]

Missing from the invitation list are most of the cathedral's low-income parishioners

AND St. Vibiana, patroness of the original cathedral.

[NYer]

One newspaper reports the cost at $193 million; this one claims it is $200 million ... actual cost ... ?????

[Sock]

They did a two minute walk through video of this cathedral on the Chicago local news tonight. I looked, but didn't see any kneelers.

[ninenot]

Mahony will ask his people to kneel on the concrete floor. Apparently they ran out of money.

[NYer]

Mahony will ask his people to kneel on the concrete = travertine marble floor. Apparently they ran out of money.

Kneelers, if any, were certainly at the bottom of his shopping list. As I recall, Fr. Dr. "the wreckovator" Vosko, was instrumental in the design elements. He is from right here in Albany, NY and the churches where he practiced his "new age techniques" have all had their kneelers stripped out.

[american colleen]

Pope says he shares joy of Los Angeles Catholics over new cathedral

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope John Paul II said he shares the joy of Los Angeles-area Catholics at the completion of their new cathedral, which was to be dedicated Sept. 2. In offering his blessing to the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels, the pope said he hoped it would "effectively contribute to the intensification of the true faith and the strengthening of authentic religious piety." The pope made his comments in a letter to U.S. Cardinal J. Francis Stafford, his special delegate to the dedication ceremonies in Los Angeles. Cardinal Stafford was to impart the papal blessing during the inaugural Mass.

[american colleen]

The rest of the story I posted above is in this post (I messed up and didn't post the entire thing).

Pope says he shares joy of Los Angeles Catholics over new cathedral (con't)

The pope said it was a cause of "joy and honor" for the faithful of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles that their new cathedral has finally been completed.
He said the event recalled to mind Christ's words in the Gospel: "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."
"We are happy at the honor being paid to Christ Himself and to His mother, called Our Lady of Angels, through the consecration of this church," he said.

[NYer]

Pope John Paul II said he shares the joy of Los Angeles-area Catholics at the completion of their new cathedral

.... then asks that bones of St. Vibiana be returned post haste! LOL ... just kidding.

May God bless him, what else can he say? Whatever was Mahony thinking when he built this - this - edifice? It features a restaurant ????!!!! (wouldn't you just love to be the one responsible for assigning names to the various dishes being served!! Oh how my imagination flies with that.), and a convention center - play and pray??? Is he hoping to lure the Academy Awards there some time in the future?

Perhaps he imagines himself in competition with the "Crystal Cathedral". I am waiting on the list of invited guests ... Dr. Schuller and son were probably there, taking notes and planning their next addition.

[ninenot]

"effectively contribute to the intensification of the true faith and the strengthening of authentic religious piety."

Good luck with that wish, Your Holiness.

[NYer]

According to Erlenbusch, the bulk of the new cathedral's parishioners are working poor, some of whom live on as little as 7 percent of the national median income, or $3,000 a year. About 4,000 people in the cathedral's shadow sleep on the streets every night.

These are the people who will be absent during the gala events of the coming week. For $1,000 to $2,500 per person, attendees at the gala will sit in the cathedral's main terrace, dine on filet of beef and angel food cake, and sip wine brought up from the cathedral cellar. The event is expected to net $1.5 million, said Tamberg. The money will be used to help pay for the cathedral's operations, he said.

Expect to see a crowd of locals, carrying pitchforks, storm the cathedral the night of the black tie gala.

[Theresa]

I saw a news report of this on TV. They showed the Cathedral inside and out. Well I don't know. I guess its okay. It is 2002, time marches on. You can't expect brand new cathedrals to be built to look like the ones in the middle ages.

[Aliska]

Missing from the invitation list are most of the cathedral's low-income parishioners, who live down the street from the hilltop cathedral in one of the nation's poorest areas.

That's the way it is now. Some of those "invitation only" civic leaders probably aren't even catholic.

This sucks bigtime. Can't have the rabble ruining the splendor of the day. Wouldn't look good on tv.

They are only fit to be "ministered to".

[Over50Million]

American Colleen quoted this, "effectively contribute to the intensification of the true faith and the strengthening of authentic religious piety."

In my local newspaper they ran an Associate Press story:

"The $195 million cathedral - intentionally a foot longer than New York's St. Patrick's Cathedral..."

So much pride and ego on display and it is this little fact that makes me the most sad and deflated.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Mahony said St. Vibiana's couldn't be repaired but the developer he sold it to says otherwise.

http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/1999/1299mg.htm

ARTICLES December 1999 ARTICLES LETTERS NEWS CALENDAR ROAMIN' CATHOLIC FREE BOXES Contents © 1999 by Jim Holman. All rights reserved. lamission@tminet.com

A Trendy Though Profane Use CARDINAL MAHONY SELLS ST. VIBIANA'S By Maggie Garcia A November 2, 1999 article in the Los Angeles Times announced the sale of St. Vibiana's Cathedral in downtown Los Angeles for $4.65 million dollars. The developer that bought the earthquake damaged cathedral, Tom Gilmore, announced that he wanted to convert the cathedral, its rectory, and school buildings into a "trendy residential loft district." "This is really a chance of a lifetime," he said. "I don't think that there are a lot of guys who go out and buy a cathedral". Gilmore's plans for the Cathedral and adjacent buildings include classroom space for Cal State Los Angeles, housing a charter school, a small hotel, a new apartment building and a restaurant. The proposed complex has been dubbed "Cathedral Place" and will cost, Gilmore estimates, about 40 million dollars. Construction is not scheduled to began for another year. Gilmore said that it is estimated that the cathedral itself will require at least $4 million in seismic repairs. According to the Times, Gilmore formed a corporation to purchase the cathedral. The corporation made a "sizable down payment and will pay interest to the archdiocese for two years." After that, the remainder of the $4.65 million will be paid off. Gilmore is looking towards both public and private financing for the project. The sale of the cathedral was announced at a November 3 news conference heavily attended by city leaders, including Mayor Richard Riordan, who said that Cathedral Place would be another magnet which would draw people downtown. "With this project, Gilmore and Associates will safeguard the legacy of our beautiful cathedral which has given us so much for so many years." Mayor Riordan had assisted Cardinal Mahony in his quest to raze St. Vibiana's. After the 1994 Northridge earthquake damaged the cathedral, Cardinal Mahony began the process of tearing it down. The Los Angeles Conservancy, however, filed suit to stop the demolition of St. Vibiana's. The Conservancy won the lawsuit and the archdiocese appealed to the California Court of Appeals, which reaffirmed the lower court's ruling in favor of the Conservancy. On July 26, 1996 Cardinal Mahony issued a decree stating that "the Cathedral of St. Vibiana has suffered a loss of sacred character." In order to satisfy canonical requirements, the cardinal listed three reasons for his decree. His first reason was, because "the damage to the Cathedral of St. Vibiana is so extensive that it can in no way be employed for divine worship... since July 2, 1996, the City of Los Angeles has declared the Cathedral a 'public nuisance'.... Long before that I had recognized that further use of the Cathedral of St. Vibiana posed an extreme danger. Hence to protect the faithful it was necessary to cancel all services and forbid any access to the Cathedral. It has been closed since May 22, 1995." Mahony's second reason in the decree states that, according to an earthquake evaluation report issued by Nabih Youusef & Associates in September of 1995, "during a major earthquake in the downtown area, the Cathedral of Saint Vibiana would suffer extensive structural damage with possible collapse." The decree goes on to state that, according to the report, "the foundations beneath the exterior walls are constructed of rubble with questionable support capacity." The "unreinforced masonry walls ... would perform very poorly" in any earthquake. The third reason given by Mahony in the decree was that ...it is not possible to repair the damage to the Cathedral and to restore it without exorbitant costs. The Earthquake Evaluation Report of Nabih Youssef & Associates citing the cost estimates of Peck/Jones [contractors], indicated that to repair and retrofit the cathedral would cost at least $20,900,000 [The cost of the new cathedral is approximately $163 million dollars]. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles has no source of funding for such a huge amount. Even if such a large sum of money was available, to use it to repair the current Cathedral would be very poor stewardship of the resources of the people of God of this Local Church. Even completely retrofitted, the present Cathedral would remain the type of building that would be easily damaged in future earthquakes. Nor is the Cathedral of Saint Vibiana of a size and liturgical design to serve the current needs of the Archdiocese. Thus in accord with the provisions of Canon 1222, section 1.1, I have concluded that it is 'impossible' to repair the Cathedral. The cardinal concluded the decree stating that "for the reasons summarized above, I have determined that the Cathedral of St. Vibiana has, in fact, lost its sacred character. Thus ... I hereby relegate the Cathedral of Saint Vibiana to profane use." Cardinal Mahony sought a canonical opinion from the very Reverend Lawrence A. DiNardo. A canonical opinion dated January 8, 1997, revealed that, initially, Cardinal Mahony sought to discover whether or not the archdiocese could sell the cathedral to "another religious group," and so the opinion issued only concerned itself with the possibility of selling St. Vibiana's to "another religious group." The opinion states that "there are no canonical prohibitions which would prevent the ultimate sale of the former cathedral to another religious group. However," the report continued, "several canonical issues must be resolved prior to the consummation of any sale." The first issue involved removing all sacred objects "since they cannot be sold or given to any other entity except another public juridic person. Second a determination must be made as to whether or not any of the ecclesiastical goods were given to the former cathedral with restrictions by the donor as to its use. If so, the intention of the donor must be fulfilled or commuted by agreement with the donor if possible. Third, since the transaction would seem to be an act of extraordinary administration, Canon 1277 requires that before such an act can have valid force the consent of the Archdiocesan Finance Council and the Archdiocesan College of Consultors is required. Fourth the sale of Saint Vibiana Cathedral is a matter of alienation of ecclesiastical property, a sale in excess of $3,000,000 would require permission of the Holy See in accord with Canon 1292, section 2 and the rescript of the Congregation of Clergy." When asked for comment, archdiocesan spokesman Father Gregory Coiro's secretary said it was his policy not to talk to the Mission. -- from the Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission, December 1999 TOP

[Siobhan]

DATELINE: 25 March 2007

(SANTA FE- AFP) The Presidential Commission looking into the 2002 Los Angeles earthquake has established that the epicenter of the quake was the new Catholic cathedral, nicknamed "The Rog Mahal" after the disgraced ex-cardinal Roger Mahony who built it.

Because southern California and Nevada were completely submerged during the megatemblor, it has taken painstaking work to determine the actual epicenter.

RELATED STORIES:
(SANTA FE-AFP) A reliquary containing the relics of St. Vibiana washed ashore on the Pacific Coast of Arizona near the Mexican border. St. Vibiana had been the patroness of the Los Angeles Cathedral before it was condemned and replaced by the Our Lady of the Angles mega-cathedral.

(SAINT LOUIS, F.D. - AFP)The Papal Nuncio at his residence in St. Louis announced that St. Vibiana would now be named the patron saint of all who live on geological fault lines...

[Siobhan]

But you can expect them to be beautiful and to glorify God.

Mother Angelica proved that it could be done with the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville, Alabama.

[american colleen]

You are right, what else can JPII say? Notice he did not comment regarding the physical building at all.

May God forgive me, but I think it is a modern monstrosity straight out of Orwell's "1984."

Whatever was Mahony thinking when he built this - this - edifice? It features a restaurant ????!!!! (wouldn't you just love to be the one responsible for assigning names to the various dishes being served!! Oh how my imagination flies with that.), and a convention center - play and pray??? Is he hoping to lure the Academy Awards there some time in the future?

God only knows what Mahony was thinking. I was always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until months ago I read those e-mails he wrote regarding his role in the scandals. Among the many sad thoughts going through my head when I read them, were 1. Mahony speaks like a guilty CEO and not the shepherd of the flock. 2. No mention of victims 3. No mention of God. So, I don't know what goes through his head, but it doesn't seem to be what should be going through his head.

Naming the dishes would be a pretty funny thread! A restaurant and a convention center... I like "play and pray" a lot! How about "meet, greet and eat" to combine both?

Mahony has gone Hollywood, for sure.

[american colleen]

...after the disgraced ex-cardinal Roger Mahony..

oh! wishful thinking... (but I always feel guilty for saying stuff like that, even if it is about Uncle Rog)

[american colleen]

Thanks for the Mission article. Very sad. Where did poor St. Vibiana's remains go to?

[Siobhan]

Better to feel guilty about eating chocolate than feeling guilty about anything said of Mahony...

[american colleen]

Thanks, Siobhan.

[american colleen]

Oh, how truly sad. If this is true, what a pitiful, sad and lost man Cardinal Mahony is. Although Fr. Vosko did design the new Cathedral (big surprise), Mahony surely had the last word.

That's OK though. St. Patricks still has kneelers, candles you have to light with a long match, beautiful altars, statues of the Saints, crucifix's with a corpus, "real" confessionals and a long history of faithful Catholics. And, don't they have Msgr. Clark?

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

St. Vibiana's relics were supposed to be placed in a chapel at Taj-Mahony. Don't know what they did with them in the interim.

[livius]

Expect to see a crowd of locals, carrying pitchforks, storm the cathedral the night of the black tie gala.

I did hear that folks from the Catholic Worker turned up to protest Mahony's spending big bucks on this totally unneccesary project when there were many charitable needs to be met. I guess I wouldn't mind so much if it were - well, beautiful or anything like that.

The other thing is that the space is not welcoming or sheltering, so I can hardly imagine that the poor who live around there are going to feel like it's "their" building. Can anybody imagine a tiny old Mexican immigrant lady creeping in there to pray? I don't even think they've left a place for her to light a candle.

[NYer]

Thank you, Smedley, for posting that story. I had been looking for it for some time now.

...it is not possible to repair the damage to the Cathedral and to restore it without exorbitant costs.

what???? No repair job to the old cathedral could even come close to the price tag on this "Wal-Mart" of cathedrals. Did you see the cost of simply "maintaining" the cathedral? How does he plan to raise that money on a regular basis AND pay off his attorneys AND pay the damages stemming from the continuous pile up of lawsuites? See my other post!

This was an ego trip - pure and simple. A legacy builder. It will all backfire on him at some point in time. He can't possibly maintain such an opulent lifestyle, in his present situation.

I wonder if the local parishioners will be allowed to attend mass there. They can't contribute much to the coffers; if anything, they will be looking for assistance.

[drstevej]

This thread reminded me of the similar frustrations of another era.

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

[NYer]

The first issue involved removing all sacred objects "since they cannot be sold or given to any other entity except another public juridic person. Second a determination must be made as to whether or not any of the ecclesiastical goods were given to the former cathedral with restrictions by the donor as to its use. If so, the intention of the donor must be fulfilled or commuted by agreement with the donor if possible.

Obviously NONE of these ecclesiastical goods were retained for use in the new cathedral. And to think that Mahony was once considered papabile. Can you imagine what he would do to St. Peter's?

As for St. Vibiana, here bones were a gift from a pope with the stipulation that a cathedral be built in her name. That same stipulation asked that her remains be returned if and when the cathedral were to be destroyed. The last I heard, she was in a "holding pattern" at one of Mahony's cemeteries.

This web site is maintaining constant watch over Mahony.

MAHONY

[ultima ratio]

I have never felt St. Peter's in Rome was a very "spiritual" environment. I have visited about four different times in my life, each time imagining I would feel some uplift. It never happens. It's practically the only important church in Europe that leaves me flat. It's pretty big and grand, though.

[NYer]

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

I'm confused. The pope does not build cathedrals, bishops do. They have to raise their own money for those projects. Indigent believers? Rupert Murdoch contributed 10 million alone. I wouldn't consider him "indigent", would you?

I don't know if you have been following our threads over the past few months, regarding this particular cathedral. There are some very fine cardinals, archbishops and bishops in the US ... and then, there is Roger Mahony. Like Judas Iscariot, not everyone surrounding the pope has his best intentions at heart.

As for the pope being one of the wealthiest men in the world, I don't feel that is a fair comparison. The pope does not sit down at night and count the pennies in his coffers. What about Robert Schuller and his ministry? While it doesn't compare to the "pope's", if you were to combine the wealth given to ALL of the disparite protestant groups, you would be looking at a substantial fortune.

[VermiciousKnid]

Perhaps, but I can't see a reason in the world why the cathedral must be as stunningly ugly as this one is. Yick.

Regards,

[drstevej]

FYI: The quote was thesis #86 of Martin Luther's Ninety Five Theses.

[Antoninus]

"I think it's a horrible time to be opening such a lavish place," said Ruth Green, a school volunteer. "The Catholic Church should be ashamed of itself."

No, dear, please give credit where it's due. Cardinal Mahoney should be ashamed of himself. He is not the Church. Of course, the media is going to use Mahoney's fiscal profligacy as an albatross to hang around the neck of the greater Church. I even heard a talkshow host here in Philadelphia already doing that ... on a sports talk station.

[Antoninus]

You can't expect brand new cathedrals to be built to look like the ones in the middle ages.

One would think with how far we've "advanced" we could do a lot better than they did in the "bad old days." Instead, we've done much worse. Mahoney built a warehouse, installed a set of ugly bronze doors and called it a cathedral.

Search through the history of art and architecture. It's not hard to differentiate the enlightened eras from the decadent ones. Future art historians will have a field day with Mahoney's concrete ziggurat.

[Theresa]

"But you can expect them to be beautiful and to glorify God. "

Well we all have our tastes. And it is futile to argue about taste. I like neutral colors, open spaces and minimal clutter. Its calming and cleansing. ONTOH I also like rich colors and being surrounded by lots of shiney things. It is stimulating and involving. Of course you can't have both styles in the same church. So I think its not a bad idea to try to cultivate an appreciation of both styles.

Minimalism is not so bad in a Church when you think about how our daily lives are so cluttered with things and posessions and "stuff" everywhere. Back in the middle ages the average person did not have a lot stuff, their lives were drab, so they loved to go to church to see all the beautiful "stuff." Nowdays the average person has too much stuff, so when we go to church it's maybe a good idea to forget about the material stuff and just be in a open, plain space and focus on the spiritual dimension instead of the material. So I can appreciate a plain church too but I do NOT want ALL of them to be that way.

[Theresa]

"It's not hard to differentiate the enlightened eras from the decadent ones. Future art historians will have a field day with Mahoney's concrete ziggurat."

We have to share our common spaces and it's impossible to please everbody. You can always set up a small shrine in your home and have all the art and images that appeal to you. What I don't want to see is a deliberate attempt to force everybody into a kind of Puritanism that precludes anything that appeals to the senses as if God does not like anything fancy. But I don't think that is what is behind the move to more minimalistic interiors. I think it has more to do with spending an hour a week away from all the material clutter of our daily lives in a simple open space. Anyway I will tell myself that. It makes me feel better because I do love a beautiful pre-Vatican II church. Chist the King Church in Dallas is a perfect example of a beautiful traditional church.

[Theresa]

"Mother Angelica proved that it could be done with the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville, Alabama."

Oh it is splendid! And she should be free to do that, and evidently she is, because she did do it.

[Theresa]

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

Luther had no idea how much money the pope or the Church had. The fact is, the Church did not have much money at that time. One of the reasons the Church did not undertake reform, which everyone agreed was necessary, was because there was no money for it.

[ganesha]

Catholic cathedrals are usually more ornate while protestant churches tend to be more simple. This church looks very austere for a Catholic cathedral. I think if a church is going to go for a simple look then it is important that the lines be elegant. I would prefer a prettier and more symetrical exterior. The one thing they did do right was to build an impressive organ . If you follow the links under photos it shows them building and installing it.

[jobim]

In the movie What About Bob Bill Murray says that there are 2 kinds of people in the world: those who like Barry Manilow and those who don't.

I predict that this building, and all that it represents liturgically, theologically, and geographically (in the diocese of LA) will become the fault line of the Church in America in this new millenium. Those who like it will immediately be identified as practitioners of Catholic Lite, in George Weigel's most useful phrase, to those of us who reject it.

[drstevej]

***One of the reasons the Church did not undertake reform, which everyone agreed was necessary, was because there was no money for it.***

What reforms did the church desire to undertake that was prevented by insufficient funds? Leo X was a pauper?

Leo X (1475 - 1521)

Pope (1513-21) Born Giovanni de' Medici at Florence, the second son of Lorenzo the Magnificent, he received a humanistic education from Ficino, Politian, and Pico della Mirandola and studied canon law at Pisa (1489-91)

In 1492 he became a cardinal and went to live in Rome. Lorenzo's death recalled him to Florence the same year, but he was exiled with the rest of his family (1494). After travelling in Europe he returned to Rome (1500) and in 1503 he became the head of the Medici family. The revolution of 1512 allowed the Medici to return to Florence and in 1513, aged only thirty-seven, Giovanni was elected pope. He was thus able to gratify his humanistic tastes, patronizing scholars and artists and spending papal wealth lavishly on the construction of St Peter's and on the accumulation of books and manuscripts.

[Over50Million]

American Colleen said, "And, don't they have Msgr. Clark?"

Well, I'm a new fan of Msgr. Clark. (see below)

http://www.gaytoday.com/garchive/events/042902ev.htm

St. Patrick's Cathedral Becomes the Site of Historic Gathering
Compiled By GayToday
New York, New York-Community activists converging Sunday morning on St. Patrick's Cathedral circulated the following flyer, a 'Fact Sheet' addressing shameful attempts by the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church to blame gay sexuality for its own sins:
Don't Blame Gays for Your Sins!
The nation now knows that for decades the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has shamefully mishandled cases of sexual abuse by priests of children and minors.
Complaints have been disregarded, minimized, and not reported to the authorities. Known abusers have been shuffled from one parish to another, where they continued their abuse.
The harm to young people and their families has been compounded by the church's aggressive legal tactics when victims have sought redress through the courts.
Cardinal Edward Egan has been a central figure in this scandal. Church officials in Bridgeport were forced to admit the diocese kept a secret file on sexual assaults of children by priests and that only then-Bishop Egan had the key. While in Bridgeport, Egan used every possible legal tactic to fight survivors, and even today is fighting the release of documents that show his mishandling of abuse allegations. Brooklyn's Bishop Thomas V. Daily has a similar, abysmal record both here and in Boston.
Rather than accepting responsibility and moving aggressively to deal with abusers, church leaders are engaged in an orchestrated and cynical campaign to blame this moral and public relations disaster on gay people and gay men in the priesthood.
Last Sunday, from the pulpit of St. Patrick's Cathedral, Msgr. Eugene Clark, said that homosexuals are "disordered" and are to blame for the church's scandal. The Bishop of Detroit said the current crisis is "not truly a pedophilia-type problem, but a homosexual-type problem," and the head of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops said, "it is an ongoing struggle... to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men." Reports about the American cardinals meeting with Pope John Paul II this week once again quote church officials who cast gay people as emotionally disturbed and link our community with pedophilia. Witch hunts against gay seminarians and priests have already begun.
The media has fueled these attacks by repeating as fact unsubstantiated proclamations of the church and through unbalanced and sensationalistic reporting.
The Facts:
* There is not one shred of scientific evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia.
* There is not one shred of scientific evidence indicating that that gay people are a greater risk to children or young people than heterosexuals.
* Experts state that priests who have sexually abused children and young people are not disproportionately gay, and that having sex with boys is often deemed "safer" by priests, not an expression of their sexual orientation.
* Thousands of lesbians and gay men are serving the Catholic Church as priests and nuns, carrying out its mission with absolute integrity, self-sacrifice and devotion.
* Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people abhor and condemn sexual abuse of any person at any time.
* Our anger is not directed at Catholic people, but at the hurtful words and deeds of the church's hierarchy.
We demand that:
* The church hierarchy cease making gay people scapegoats for its own failure to protect children.
* The church hierarchy apologize for any statements that implicitly or explicitly link homosexuality and pedophilia or sexual abuse of young people.
* The church hierarchy stop covering up acts of sexual abuse and cease opposing legislation that would require immediate reporting to law enforcement of reports of sexual abuse of minors by clergy.
* The church hierarchy cease its witch hunts of priests, nuns, and seminarians.
* Msgr. Eugene Clark be removed as Rector of St. Patrick's Cathedral for his attacks on gay people.
* The media stop restating unsubstantiated claims by the church and report this issue in a balanced, professional, and non-sensational way.

[EODGUY]

NYer, when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars that, IMHO, was wasted on a secular monstrosity, what's 7 million here or there?

I wish the money would have been used to support the Pro-Life movement and/or used to give aid to the poor.

Alas, it appears, as with perverted, impeached former presidents of our country, a legacy is more important than the above.

[NYer]

NYer, when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars that, IMHO, was wasted on a secular monstrosity, what's 7 million here or there?

So true!! Yet another newspaper this morning, quoted the cost at 200+ million.

I kept wondering about the "convention center". Why? Who would hold their convention adjacent to a cathedral? I knew there had to more ... much more to this aspect. Not far away is Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral. Guess what he is building? Yup!! A convention center? (drstevej, do you understand the purpose for this building? I visited their web site and still don't grasp its purpose.)

Dr. Schuller emphasized that this new International Center for Possibility Thinking will be located at the heart of the glorious, world famous Crystal Cathedral campus -the world's very FIRST MUSEUM THAT MOTIVATES!!

DUELING CATHEDRALS ?

[Catholicguy]

This thread reminded me of the similar frustrations of another era.

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

<> Really? Cardinal Mahony's 21st Century Cathedral reminds you of a 16th Century Pope? No stretch there...

You posting Luther's comments reminds me that Luther condemned Calvin for his Usury <>

[Sock]

DUELING CATHEDRALS ?

or

DUELING EGOS ?

[Catholicguy]

Luther, Melancthon and Zwingli - reformers all - condemned Calvin for usury. I guess if Luther was right about the Pope, he is also right about Calvin

[Sock]

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

Quoting from the anti Catholic bigot James White, I see.

Why don't you tell us, Mr. PhD of tap dancing, what is the "pope's income"?

Does he spend his millions on gambling in Vegas?

A coke habit perhaps?

What does you bigoted pal James White have to say, Mr. PhD?

[drstevej]

***Quoting from the anti Catholic bigot James White, I see.***

Quoting Martin Luther, you are mistaken.

***What does you bigoted pal James White have to say, Mr. PhD?***

Actually, I have no idea who James White is much less what my "pal" has to say.

Do you really think that personal insults make your points more powerful? Perhaps getting your facts straight first would be a better approach.

[Sock]

Quoting Martin Luther, you are mistaken.

And Luther’s theses is found on White’s site, Mr. PhD. Click here, Mr. PhD

Do you really think that personal insults make your points more powerful? Perhaps getting your facts straight first would be a better approach.

Keep your indignation to yourself, Gumbo brain. I've got as much use for you and your little friends as a Jew would have for a neo nazi. You may fool a couple of people here, but you are a bigot and a jerk. Sure, you play the game of “let’s all get along” but given the opportunity, you are like the rest of the bigots as evidenced by your totally out of context post #26 on this thread.

[drstevej]

***And Luther’s theses is found on White’s site, Mr. PhD.***

So what? Do you think that is the only place where they are available on the web? BTW, that site was not my source. And I have not visited that site before.

Your anger is obvious and I will post to you no further. A simple "your post is ignored" will appear.