New Forms of Incense in LA Cathedral

TCRNews.com ^ | Sept 3, 2002 | TCRNews.com

[Siobhan]

petrusv2: "Let the ultra-traditionalist critics prefer this or that kind of architecture, this or that age or style of song, but so long as the essential elements of the Catholic Mass remain in place, it is a matter of taste, not orthodoxy. "

Theresa: Yup.

Nope.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

From Colin Donovan at EWTN:

Dedication Mass for New Cathedral on EWTN?
Question from Matthew Dana on 08-28-2002:

How come the dedication Mass for the new Our Lady of the Angeles Cathedral in Los Angeles is not going to be broadcast on EWTN?

This is the first cathedral to be opened in 26 years within the USA. It is the cathedral of BY FAR the largest archdiocese in the USA. It's also likely the most expensive ever built in the USA with the possible exception of the National Shrine in DC.

I think it would have been most edifying and appropriate for EWTN to broadcast this momentus moment throughout the world. What happened?

+JMJ;

Matthew

Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 08-31-2002:

We've not been asked.

I noticed that in your superlatives "the most beautiful" was missing. It seems to be missing from most articles on the subject. In fact, a recent article in the LA Times called it ugly. I would have used a superlative myself.

[juzcuz]

" Non-Tradition Catholicism"

I'm not familiar with the 'Indian women' or the situation you wrote of. But there is something very pagan going on. It's not just the Catholic Church. Maybe it's part of the grand Millennium Ecumenicism promoted by the world council of churches. Paganism has become deep rooted in this country and the world. Traditional Religions are sitting up, taking notice and inclusive worldwide.

May 22,2000: "Alarm over Church talks with Druids",Sunday London Telegraph http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/druids.html

August 6,2002: "Incoming Archbishop of Canterbury becomes a Druid", The Guardian- http://www.anglicansonline.org/news/

The Anglican Church, headed by the Archbishop of Canterbury, is communioned with the Episcopal Churches here in the US. Example:

http://www.st-tims-church.org/ep_int.html

Also the Episcopal Diocese of California promotes New Age Leaders. One named Matthew Fox a former Catholic priest is on a lecture circuit promoting "RAVE MASSES", with alters to the sun and the moon. See New Age movement in the Episcopal Church. http://www.fatima.freehosting.net/Articles/Art7.htm.

[Sock]

We've not been asked.

I wonder why?

I noticed that in your superlatives "the most beautiful" was missing.

Donovan is a sharp guy and he gets the message across subtlety. It's too bad Hand doesn't follow his lead. In becoming advocates for the actions of these people, he appears to be and is acting as an enabler. Not a wise move when “these people” are lefties.

btw: thanks for those directions on the other thread regarding kneelers at the Cathedral.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

You're welcome.

I like Donovan. He's a sharp guy who knows more about how Mass should be said and how priests should behave than the vast majority of those who have been ordained.

[Catholicguy]

TCR ""Let the ultra-traditionalist critics prefer this or that kind of architecture, this or that age or style of song, but so long as the essential elements of the Catholic Mass remain in place, it is a matter of taste, not orthodoxy. "

Theresa "Yup."

Ultima "Nope. The essential elements are present at a Black Mass--but it is still an abomination. Non-essentials matter."

<>LOL still at it, huh? Comparing this to a Black Mass....You have compared the normative mass to a black mass previously. Is there any Liturgy of the Mass, after the close of the 16th Century, that you consider not a Black Mass?<>

[Catholicguy]

The hysterical reaction is amasing. One would think the entire Liturgy of the Mass consisted in the one action photographed. <P.
BTW, I do think Mr.Hand has a fairly good understanding of the word "culture" despite your disagrement with him :)

[Catholicguy]

<>In your mind, is the such a thing as an Orthodox Cathedral, Epoch, or style of song?

Since when has these things achieved Doctrinal Status?

[Palladin]

I never cared much for the incense thing, being allergic to the stuff. I always have to go outside when we get a priest who goes overboard with it.

Those sweet little Vietnamese nuns are about the farthest away from Wicca that you could get. The Cardinal invited them to incense the altar; they obediently complied.

What's the big deal?

[Catholicguy]

. What's the big deal?

<>Beats me :) Apparently everything that doessn't duplicate the Mass of the 16th Century, including architecture, vestments, music, type of incense even, I guess, is some abominable heresy and signifies the death knell of Catholicism and all is lost. What faith :)

Pope Pius V created a New Rite after The Council of Trent and it was the right Mass for that age. Pope Paul V created a New Rite ( a revision of the old rite, actually) after the Vatican Two Council and it is the right Mass for this age but some, knowing far more and far better than the Divinely-constituted authority, will have none of it.

THEY, I guess, are the only ones competent to judge and if only they had the authority they justly deserve, all would be right with the world :) <>

[Bellarmine]

Is anyone but the priest even allowed to incense the altar? I know that the Deacon or altar server will incense the priest and then the faithful after the priest has incensed the altar, but I have never seen anyone but a priest incense the altar.

Bellarmine

[ninenot]

Maybe he does understand culture quite well. But his offhand use of the 'essentials matter, non-essentials don't' in the context was a bit jarring.

The whole debate over liturgy and worship (music, text, smells/bells, altar 'girls', architecture, decoration) is a debate about culture, at least within the confines of the church building proper.

Many are of the opinion that the demise of the inter-building culture led to the demise of the larger culture. I do not hold this position; rather, the reverse: that the culture at large has a deleterious effect on the inter-building culture of the Church, which has had a serious negative impact. This is not to say that there are OTHER contributing factors, nor that it is black and white.

But the willingness of the American Bishops to push Americanization of the Church (and this stretches back more than 100 years) is certainly a major component.

Thus, the 'counter-reformers' (of which I am one) are pushing for at LEAST an 'inter-building', e.g., within the walls of a church, culture which reflects the cult, what actually happens at Mass.

[ninenot]

Pope Paul V created a New Rite ( a revision of the old rite, actually)

This statement is erroneous. Paul VI merely approved a new liturgy created by a committee.

Further, your gratuitous slam "...only [the protesters] know best.." is not really worthy of you.

The Mass as approved by Paul VI would be virtually unrecognizable to most Catholics--it is rarely, if ever, celebrated with the rubrics.

In addition, the Council's specific instructions regarding the 'new Mass' were ignored in practice (although not necessarily in form) by the implementors of the 'novus.'

There are some who would have nothing to do with the novus even if it were celebrated letter-perfect, in Latin, with the smells/bells, and a small army of altar boys. THEY WILL NOT SERVE!!

THere are others, myself included, who would really like to bring the surrounding culture to a level compatible with the Mass's gravity.

[Aliska]

What ya cookin' there, sisters? :-)

Sorry I couldn't resist. Looks like they be cookin' in the cathedral.

[Aliska]

Here are some snippets from the LA Times which was quoted IN FULL in the catholic newsgroup:

Norwalk resident Margarita Gonzalez, 68, took a bus, the Green Line train and then the Blue Line to get to the new downtown landmark. The trip from her home to the statue of Mary at the cathedral lasted an hour and 40 minutes. Kneeling before the statue, Gonzalez prayed and dabbed her tears with a tissue. "They say it cost $200 million, and that it was a waste of money," she said. "But really it's all for God. What's $200 million for God?" Many of Tuesday's visitors were as excited and awestruck as the business, civic and political leaders at Monday's dedication liturgy.

and:

One after another, worshipers went up to the statue, crossed themselves and began to touch it, many with tears in their eyes. They rubbed the bronze feet of the suffering savior; they rubbed the flayed and abraded skin. They lingered.

and:

One man carried a plastic grocery bag as he kissed the ring of Cardinal Roger M. Mahony, the archbishop of Los Angeles. An old woman approached the cardinal and wept as he blessed her.

For full article, click here and you can read if you are registered

One poster said it made him want to return to the church after having been gone for 20 years.

There was a picture of the pipe organ and a writeup in our local paper.

[Catholicguy]

I don't want to be misunderstood. I don't like the architecture of the new Cathedral. Folks like Duncan Stroick (sp) and his coterie from Notre Dame are leading a real revival of authentic Catholic art and architecture.

We will have this abberation with us for awhile yet. But, imo, we have turned the corner

[Catholicguy]

This statement is erroneous. Paul VI merely approved a new liturgy created by a committee

Popoe Paul said it was a revision. I don't have the text promulgating the revision of the Rite before me right now. But, I think he did say it was a revision

[Dajjal]

I have been amused to watch various extremists suggest the nuns look more like "wicca priestesses" than Catholic nuns. That is simply preposterous, even if I might prefer the old way of incensing the altar.

Hand reads Free Republic, and read your post, narses.

He's nailing YOU, as an extremist.

Congratulations, Narses! You are now the subject of an encyclical by Pope Stephen the Hand! Wow! How does it feel to be a muse?!

[Irisshlass]

You forget to meantion at the new Cathedral for about $25 you can buy a bottle of Our Lady of the Angels wine in the gift shop or you can buy your own crypt for anywhere from $50,000 to $3 million. And if you want to park in the garage its $12.