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PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN
lifesite.net ^ | Oct. 10, 2002

Posted on 10/10/2002 6:17:10 PM PDT by Flying Circus

PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN Calls Pro-Life Delegate a "Conservative Idiot"

ARLINGTON, VA, October 10, 2002 (LSN.ca) - Honorable Richard Black, member of the Virginia House of Delegates and a heroic defender of life and family in the state legislature, was refused Holy Communion at Arlington's St. Thomas More Cathedral. On September 22, the Cathedral Rector, Fr. Dominic Irace refused to give Communion to Delegate Black since Black was kneeling to receive. Fr. Irace told him he must stand to receive but Black chose to rather to genuflect and withdraw.

In a letter of concern to Arlington Bishop Paul Loverde, Catholic pro-life activist Dr. Joseph Strada, wrote: "This affront to Delegate Black, and his family, is doubly shameful because Delegate Black is, without question, the most courageous defender of the innocent unborn on the floor of the House of Delegates in Richmond. One has to wonder if Fr. Irace would have been so bold as to refuse Holy Communion to Senator Ted Kennedy or other militantly pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians who regularly attend Mass in Arlington churches."

After Mass, and in the presence of Black's wife and daughter as well as other faithful, Fr. Irace shouted insults to Delegate Black as he exited the Cathedral. When Delegate Black tried to avoid Fr. Irace, pointing out that he had refused him Holy Communion, Fr. Irace shouted "you liar!" several times. As Delegate Black left the Cathedral, Fr. Irace loudly called him a "conservative idiot."

In an interview with LifeSite, Delegate Black said that while he has been under tense situations in combat for his country and in the war-like political realm, he was concerned for other faithful Catholics who may be intimidated by Fr. Irace.

To express your concerns:

Bishop Loverde: The Most Reverend Paul S. Loverde Diocese of Arlington 200 North Glebe Road, Suite 914 Arlington, VA 22203 Or email family life office at r.laird@arlingtondiocese.org

Delegate Richard Black 20978 Flatboat Court Sterling, VA 20165 (703) 406-2951 fax: (703) 450-2076 mail@delegateblack.com

See Joseph Strada's letter to the Bishop: http://www.rcf.org/docs/strada01.htm

(More pro-life news at www.lifesite.net)


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; communion; kneeling; nhs; prolife; tholic

1 posted on 10/10/2002 6:17:10 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Polycarp; sockmonkey; narses; B-Chan; Land of the Irish; SuziQ; ...
Upside-down world Ping.
2 posted on 10/10/2002 6:34:33 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Flying Circus
conservative idiot
3 posted on 10/10/2002 6:43:43 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
And you too!
4 posted on 10/10/2002 6:47:00 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Flying Circus
thanks
5 posted on 10/10/2002 6:47:58 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Flying Circus
The American Catholic Church is, quite simply, going to hell. Its sad when anyone who kneels is refused communion, but its especially troubling when that person just happens to be a Pro-life politician. When was the last time you ever saw one of our pro-choice Catholic politicians refused communion? (Answer: Never!)
6 posted on 10/10/2002 7:05:35 PM PDT by FBDinNJ
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To: nickcarraway; Flying Circus
After Mass, and in the presence of Black's wife and daughter as well as other faithful, Fr. Irace shouted insults to Delegate Black as he exited the Cathedral. When Delegate Black tried to avoid Fr. Irace, pointing out that he had refused him Holy Communion, Fr. Irace shouted "you liar!" several times. As Delegate Black left the Cathedral, Fr. Irace loudly called him a "conservative idiot."

OMG, is this embarassing.

Signed, a fellow conservative idiot.
7 posted on 10/10/2002 7:06:58 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: FBDinNJ
You got it!
8 posted on 10/10/2002 7:10:33 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Desdemona
We should start a club.

BTW, Do you ever go to St. Agatha's?
9 posted on 10/10/2002 7:12:41 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Desdemona
About 20 years a group of Catholics in Stellarton, Nova Scotia were arrested and charged with disturbing the order and solemnity of a divine service. Their crime? They knelt for Communion. Their case made it all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada where their convictions were quashed.

For those of you with access to a law library, the case is cited as R. v. Skoke-Graham [1985] 1 S.C.R. 106.

10 posted on 10/10/2002 7:17:59 PM PDT by Loyalist
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To: Flying Circus
Do you ever go to St. Agatha's?

Unfortunately, no. Latin Mass is at 10 and at that hour I work in a protestant church singing. That job allows me to pay for voice lessons, coaching, theory classes, etc. As long as I just think of it as a gig, I'm fine. So, I go to 9 elsewhere.
11 posted on 10/10/2002 7:20:18 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Flying Circus
I thought I posted this story yesterday on another thread...can't find it...oh well...glad you did :)
12 posted on 10/10/2002 7:33:59 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: Desdemona
I always want to go there when I am in town, but I never get the chance.
13 posted on 10/10/2002 7:44:18 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Irisshlass
I couldn't find it posted anywhere. It was send to me via E-mail and I thought it deserved to be seen here.
14 posted on 10/10/2002 7:47:32 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Flying Circus
I go there when I'm in town.
15 posted on 10/10/2002 8:39:21 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: Flying Circus
What is the significance of kneeling or standing during communion?
16 posted on 10/10/2002 8:42:42 PM PDT by rising tide
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To: FBDinNJ
Actually pro-abortion politicians are sometimes refused Communion, even if it is a small fraction of the time. I can't think of an excample of Communion offhand, but, for example, Fr. George Parker, pastor of a Church in Connecticut, returned a $5000 donation to Senator Christopher Dodd. For his efforts, he was forced to retire early.
17 posted on 10/10/2002 9:41:46 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Flying Circus
I did a net search for Fr. Dominic Irace, and the only thing I could find of interest besides RCF's take on this incident, (which mentioned Fr's well known outbursts), was a blurb about some Catholic folks who had some violent, spooky paranormal activity in their house, and asked him for help.

Fr. Irace's response was, “I’ve never dealt with anything like this. In this Diocese we’ve never had anything really serious like that happen.. .1 tell people that it’s almost like voodoo in a way. If you don’t believe in it, it can’t hurt you.”

18 posted on 10/10/2002 9:57:53 PM PDT by sockmonkey
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To: rising tide
What is the significance of kneeling or standing during communion?

Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Kneeling has always been considered a sign of reverence. Up until Second Vatican Council II (1965), communion was distributed on the tongue to those kneeling at the communion rail. That rule was modified to allow the distribution of communion in the hand to standing communicants.

Recently, the USCCB (US Catholic Conference of Bishops) announced:

"The U.S. bishops' Committee on the Liturgy has said that Catholics should not ordinarily receive Communion while kneeling."

It is nothing but the opinion of a small group of bishops -- a committee. Tremendous grief and problems have arisen in the last 30 years because of the "authority" unjustifiably accorded (by individual bishops, priests, and laymen) to statements of mere committees -- particularly this notorious Liturgy Committee (and its 1970s document on art and architecture, for example). A committee has NO power whatsoever, except to propose its opinion to the entire bishops' conference. This was later clarified to state that NO catholic can be refused communion if they choose to kneel.

Obviously, Fr Irace was wrong to refuse communion to Mr. Black.

19 posted on 10/11/2002 12:11:03 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Flying Circus
Thanks for the ping.
20 posted on 10/11/2002 5:02:20 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Flying Circus
At the Ave Maria School of Law, the chaplain has put in place a free-standing custom-designed two-person "prie dieu" (kneeler) that all communicants use as a communion rail.



21 posted on 10/11/2002 5:42:02 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: Flying Circus
I would suggest all who find themselves in such a situation do this:

1. attempt to recieve while kneeling
2. when refused, stand up and recieve in the hand
3. kneel back down
4. place the host in one's mouth
5. return to one's seat
22 posted on 10/11/2002 5:44:52 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: Flying Circus
Sign me on the conservative idiot club too...maybe if we get enough signatures and some prominent ones we can get it to the Bishop down there...or put it in the Washington Times!
23 posted on 10/11/2002 5:47:17 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: sockmonkey
"If you don’t believe in it, it can’t hurt you.”

So, he thinks if you don't believe in evil, it has no power?(Tell the folks down around the beltway Fr. Irace...the sniper wouldn't hurt them if they don't believe in him?) Or does he go further and think it is nonexistent? And how deep could his faith in good or God be?
24 posted on 10/11/2002 5:53:29 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Flying Circus
Cathedral of St. Thomas More Arlington, Virginia
25 posted on 10/11/2002 8:11:12 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: NYer
Thank you for the very clear explanation. From the little I know it looks like Fr Irace took nealing for Eucharist as a chalange to his authority. Seems he wishes a more relaxed and "progressive" RCC.
26 posted on 10/11/2002 9:36:35 AM PDT by rising tide
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To: Flying Circus
>BTW, Do you ever go to St. Agatha's?

I have been to the TLM there several times. And the Church is absolutely beautiful. It has not yet been destroyed as so many other churches have been in this area.

If anyone gets a chance to attend at 10:00am on Sundays, they should go.
27 posted on 10/11/2002 3:03:44 PM PDT by lrslattery
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To: lrslattery
It is a great old neighborhood church. It is a shame they don't built them like that anymore.

I wish I could there, but my family is up in St. Ann and I depend on their goodwill for transportion most of the time I am visiting.
28 posted on 10/11/2002 3:15:51 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: rising tide
On another thread, the issue of sola scriptura is being argued. The RC's claim tradition carries weight, and in some cases trumps Scripture. In this case, "kneeling" now violates the "traditions" of the RC Church, and is therefore forbidden! Absurd in my mind, heart, and practice. "Kneeling" is a time honored act of contrition and devotion. To "outlaw", or "out-tradition" it is ridiculous!
29 posted on 10/11/2002 3:24:37 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
The RC's claim tradition carries weight, and in some cases trumps Scripture. In this case, "kneeling" now violates the "traditions" of the RC Church, and is therefore forbidden!

It's not forbidden. It's just not recommended.

If you want to look at "Tradition," standing was the customary posture for reception of the Eucharist for the first millenium and some.

So, kneeling was an "innovation," and standing is reverting to the ancient practice.

30 posted on 10/11/2002 3:43:43 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Seems to me there are too many anecdotes in the thread about refusal to offer Mass to kneelers to get away with saying that it is "just not recommended"
31 posted on 10/11/2002 3:56:55 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
Seems to me there are too many anecdotes in the thread about refusal to offer Mass to kneelers to get away with saying that it is "just not recommended"

The priest is being too rigid. OTOH, if the delegate really wanted to receive the Eucharist, he should have swallowed his pride and done so instead of making a scene.

32 posted on 10/11/2002 4:47:28 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: LiteKeeper
On another thread, the issue of sola scriptura is being argued. The RC's claim tradition carries weight, and in some cases trumps Scripture.

100% BS. Tradition no more trumps scripture than scripture trumps Tradition. In the Catholic Church there are two types of tradition. Small t tradition is usually the practices that the church has encouraged through canon law as matters of discipline. Sacred Tradition is a part of the Apostolic deposit of faith and is the source of Scripture. Scripture is a part of Sacred Tradition, it is not the totality of it as Sola Scriptura holds. Saying that Scripture conflicts with Tradition is like saying Scripture conflicts with itself: only true because the language, the context and symbolism of scripture has been obscured by time and by the reader's understanding.

In this case, "kneeling" now violates the "traditions" of the RC Church, and is therefore forbidden!

Buzz. Wrong on both counts. Kneeling is a part of small t tradition to show a proper respect for God. Kneeling at communion is part of the recognition that the very flesh of Christ is there before us. Kneeling is not forbidden in the church, to the contrary, it is REQUIRED by the Roman Missal. Bishops and priests in this country are wrong in their attempts to ban the practice. What makes this story so disgusting is how far out-of-line this priest is in his actions. The Mr Black had every right to receive Communion on his knees, both his posture and his conscience were probably much better than most of those Irace would be proud to give communion to.

33 posted on 10/11/2002 5:20:13 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: Flying Circus
I should be a bit more clear, the Roman Missal requires that we kneel at the consecration, a practice that is routinely ignored in many churches. We are not required to kneel to recieve communion but at the very least we need to genuflect or say the sign of the cross as we step forward to recieve the host.
34 posted on 10/11/2002 5:41:48 PM PDT by Flying Circus
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To: sinkspur
It's not forbidden. It's just not recommended.

No, it's more serious than that -- kneeling for Communion is ILLICIT, except under extraordinary individual circumstances as identified by the chancery of a diocese. (BTW, they made no exception for Indult Tridentine Masses! They're covered, too!)

The Bishops' Committee declared that kneeling is "not a licit posture for receiving holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States of America unless the bishop of a particular diocese has derogated from this norm in an individual and extraordinary circumstance"

You can say that the Committee doesn't have the proper authority, but the bishops of the USCCB have delegated their authority to it, and until they show enough backbone to wrest that power back, the Committee's ruling will stand.

Not only that, but Cardinal Jorge Medina Estévez of the Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship agreed in principle with the Committee's ruling that kneeling should be illicit, but thought that a "clarification" should have been added not to deny the Eucharist to Catholics who did illicitly kneel.

And don't think that the modifications are going to stop here. Probably the next thing to happen will be for kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayers to be declared "illicit." The GIRM originally posited that standing should be the norm, but in 1969 and 1995 the US Bishops amended the GIRM so that in the US kneeling during the Eucharisitic Prayer would be the norm. But that debate is far from over.

35 posted on 10/11/2002 11:36:21 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
Probably the next thing to happen will be for kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayers to be declared "illicit."

Since standing was the normative posture for the entire Mass during the first millenium and some, returning to standing (as the Eastern Rites ALL do for their liturgies) would actually be a return to the ancient practice.

36 posted on 10/12/2002 10:23:09 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: NYer
Other than the fact that "Policy" was changed, for which a reason has not been mentioned, why can't they receive communion while kneeling? Is it considered sinful? Irreverent? too humble? To Monican Lewinsky like? What reason do they give for why they will not serve communion to kneeling recipients of the "Lord's Supper"?
37 posted on 10/12/2002 2:12:53 PM PDT by webber
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To: sinkspur
All of this "standing" or "kneeling" which receiving the "Lord's Supper" is absolutely ludicrous. If we are to take Jesus' position, He was "inclined" at the table and so were His disciples when communion was taken. The "position" that a person's body takes is irrelavent. It's the condition of the person's heart that matters. He must understand what the Bread and Wine symbolizes, what each represents, and why these elements are used. The Body of Christ's broken body is represented by the "unleavened" bread, and the shed blood of Jesus is represented by the wine. The broken body of Jesus represents what Jesus' Body went through so that we could inheret by grace, through faith immortality, incorruptibility, and physical perfection, and the shed blood of Jesus represents the means to forgiveness of sin for without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness of sin, and the blood of Jesus Christ was the only blood "pure" enough to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

So talking about kneeling or standing is foolish. It's not the kneeling or the standing that causes us to remember Christ Jesus' sacrifice. We celebrate the communion (eucharist) to remember what Jesus did on our behalf. So talk about this, not about whether one should kneel or stand while remembering the sacrifice that Jesus went through on our behalf. You have just destroyed the very reason for the communion (eucharist), "Do this in remembrance of Me". --Jesus. You can't remember Jesus while arguing about kneeling or standing while receiving the elements of communion (eucharist)

38 posted on 10/12/2002 2:30:02 PM PDT by webber
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To: webber
So talking about kneeling or standing is foolish.

Well, we have to do one or the other, but to be preoccupied with posture is to miss the point.

I areee with you that the disposition of the heart and mind is of primary importance in celebrating and receiving the Eucharist.

39 posted on 10/12/2002 3:29:05 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: rising tide
What is the significance of kneeling or standing during communion?

Phil 2:10 - that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth

If at the very name of Jesus "every knee should bow", then kneeling before Him makes perfect sense (at least for the @30% of Catholics who still believe Our Lord is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Most Holy Eucharist).

40 posted on 10/13/2002 10:42:40 AM PDT by ltlflwr
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To: sinkspur
"Well, we have to do one or the other,..."

I simply don't understand why it has to be one or the other. Why can't it be both? Why can't the priest give the sacraments to the recipient in either position? This distraction, if you will, is from the "Pit of Hell" itself, and the devil has dangled it from his fishing pole in front of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church has taken that bait and swallowed it, hook, line , and sinker. The devil did this so that you will take your attention away from the reason Holy Communion is taken which is, "do to this (communion) in remembrance of me", to the ridiculous distraction of the "position to take when taking the sacrments. How foolish. It's tells God Almighty where our priorities lie, and reveals to Him that we are so very much "Babes in Christ, and cannot be fed the "meat" of the Word of God, because babies can only be fed "milk" How disappointing this must be to God, after 2000 years of existence on this Earth, we are arguing about "whether we should take communion standing up or kneeling" down. God help the Catholic Church!!!

41 posted on 10/13/2002 2:21:39 PM PDT by webber
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To: webber
I simply don't understand why it has to be one or the other. Why can't it be both?

I think you and I are saying the same thing; you're just carrying it out six decimal places.

42 posted on 10/13/2002 2:55:18 PM PDT by sinkspur
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