Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Rosary May Contribute to Unity Says Protestant Theologian
Zenit ^ | December 12, 2002 | Anonymous

Posted on 12/14/2002 10:31:14 PM PST by ultima ratio

Date: 2002-12-12

Rosary May Contribute to Unity, Says Protestant Theologian

If Contemplated as a Christological Prayer, as Suggested by Pope

ROME, DEC. 12, 2002 (Zenit.org).- The rosary has found an unlikely fan in a leading Protestant theologian.

John Paul II's recent apostolic letter "Rosarium Virginis Mariae" states, "To go through the scenes of the rosary with Mary is like going to the 'school" of Mary to read Christ, to penetrate his secrets, to understand his message." The rosary can even promote ecumenism, the Pope affirms.

That is a position shared by professor Stephan Tobler of the University of Tübingen, in Germany, a Reformed evangelical theologian, Vatican Radio reported.

"I must say that I read it in one go," Tobler said of the apostolic letter. "It is a letter of a spiritual and theological depth that I wasn't expecting -- a letter that breathes an evangelical dimension, which has very much surprised me."

"The letter says that it is necessary to relaunch the rosary as a Christological prayer," he added. "In fact, it does so, from the first to the last line."

When the document alludes to "the grace Mary gives us when we pray to her," it speaks of the grace that God gives us almost from Mary's hand, "but with an 'almost' as if to say she 'is and is not,'" the theologian said.

"Therefore, it is introduced in this way in the dynamic of the God-Trinity, which I see as close to the sensibility of the Reformers who appreciate the figure of Mary, but only if it does not detract from looking at Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Father," he said.

In this context, the Reformation communities can be encouraged by the Pope's words, the theologian said.

"I think that the evangelical churches can rediscover Mary as the image of the person completely open to God with her 'fiat' [let it be done], with her 'Do whatever he tells you," with her standing at the foot of the cross, with her silent presence among the disciples," professor Tobler said.

"In this letter, the Pope emphasizes that the rosary, more than a prayer of words, is a contemplation of the mystery," he continued. "Certainly today's sensibility and quest is primarily to rediscover a place where the heart rests, where the soul contemplates the mysteries of God and also the ways in which this is possible. We, in our traditions, must rediscover the ways that are equivalent, the analogy."

Tobler added a note of optimism about ecumenism: "I am convinced that if Catholics pray the rosary as proposed in this apostolic letter, and if evangelicals recognize and rediscover without prejudices this new way of conceiving the rosary, then it will be a favorable occasion. But we must work on it."


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: christological; rosary; unity
Aha! The other shoe drops. Now the rationale is made plain: the Rosary, that most Marian of prayers, is to be made more Protestant-friendly by the addition of "Christological Prayers". In other words, that most CATHOLIC of all devotions is to be adjusted to suit those who find prayer to Mary herself distasteful.

This is more or less how we got into the Novus Ordo mess. Now the Rosary will go the same route for the same reason and will most likely have the same result: very few converts and more and more alienated Catholics seething with anger.

Nice going, Holy Father. Maybe next you'll declare Martin Luther's birthday a Holy Day of Obligation.

1 posted on 12/14/2002 10:31:14 PM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
**a contemplation of the mystery,"**

No one can take this personal contemplation away from me.
2 posted on 12/14/2002 10:48:27 PM PST by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
That's what you think. The plan in Rosarium Virginis Mariae includes special clauses telling us what to contemplate after the name of Jesus is recited in each and every Hail Mary, and then loading each decade down with "a special prayer for the fruits specific to that particular mystery." These are going to take various forms "to better adapt to different spiritual traditions and different Christian communities." The Fatima Prayer is out. But the glorias will be sung during the public recitations. There will even be some sermonizing by the priest who leads the recitation. If you can contemplate anything at all with all that activity going on, you would be the miraculous exception, believe me. Most of all, the idea is to deflect attention from Mary as Mediatrix of Graces, a belief held by Catholics down through the ages. Instead, we are to think more "Christologically"--as Protestants would.

This is more of the new religion fostered by this papacy. True Catholics will have none of it.
3 posted on 12/14/2002 11:37:12 PM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
I though the pope was infallible though? :) (ducking for cover and going to get some coffee...)
4 posted on 12/15/2002 1:41:18 AM PST by chance33_98
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: chance33_98
The Pope is considered infallible only when speaking 'ex-cathedra'. This is not one of those occasions. However, the bishops speaking in concert at a Council are also considered infallible in their pronouncements. What I continually see posted at this site is a lack of belief that Vatican II was infallible in it's pronouncements. So I am confused because it seems that many of the old Traditionalists believe in the doctrine of infallibility only if it fits their beliefs and concepts of the Catholic Church. If the doctrine of infallibility fails in Vatican II, then it fails with the Papacy as well, and all non-Biblical precepts of the faith fade away with the doctrine.
5 posted on 12/15/2002 7:47:26 AM PST by noahltl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: chance33_98
Infallibility is restricted to ex cathedra statements only. The pope is in all else very fallible--as we can see by the ecclesiastical messes this one keeps making.
6 posted on 12/15/2002 8:43:36 AM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: noahltl
Councils are not always infallible. Infallibility means a pope or council is assured divine protection under certain conditions. A council is only infallible when it officially declares dogma in a definitive way. Vatican II did not do this. It was a pastoral, not a dogmatic, council, and therefore its declarations were not binding on the faithful.

This is why its statements on the Mass were so quickly ignored after it closed. It had stated that Latin and Gregorian chant should be given primacy of place in any reformation of the Mass. This advice was summarily brushed aside by the Vatican with the introduction of the Novus Ordo in the vernacular several years later.
7 posted on 12/15/2002 8:54:16 AM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
correction: I should have said "divine protection from error" and not simply "divine protection" in my last post.
8 posted on 12/15/2002 8:56:46 AM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
All they are doing is trying to make it look like the Protestants have just as good of a chance to get into heaven as Catholics. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. You can do all you want t try to act like the new Novas Order; which is not hard, but you are still Protestant.
9 posted on 12/16/2002 7:13:05 AM PST by sspxsteph
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sspxsteph
It's good to remember that the preconciliar popes stressed that this did not mean you had to be Catholic to be saved.
10 posted on 12/16/2002 8:38:25 AM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: ultima ratio
Evangelical, Protestant NOT!
12 posted on 12/16/2002 4:07:29 PM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
"Protestant-friendly by the addition of "Christological Prayers". "

How do you make repetitive prayers to the dead more "Protestant-friendly"? Where do you dig up these people?

Is Vatican radio Romes answer to NPR? Give me a break...

13 posted on 12/16/2002 4:56:04 PM PST by Joshua
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
I am not familiar with this theologian but the University of Tübingen is a bastion of liberalism of all varieties. Is this guy an Evanglical (capital "E" as in Lutheran)? He certainly is not evangelical in any other sense.

In May of 1988 I visited the University of Tübingen with a friend who was a missionary with the Navigators who ministered to evangelicals ("e" as opposed to "E") on the campus. The theology department is one of the largest in Germany but at the time there were less than two dozen evangelicals and they were bombarded by liberals including Hans Kung.

The only evangelical on faculty then was Dr. Peter Beyerhaus a professor of world missions. Beyond that it was a wasteland theologically, IMO and the opinion of my friend.

It may have changed since then, but I would be shocked. Anyone who thinks the rosary will draw evangelicals to Rome doesn't understand evangelicals.
14 posted on 12/16/2002 5:20:37 PM PST by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
I don't know anything about Tobler myself, but Kasper was professor of Catholic Theology at Tubingen. It figures.
15 posted on 12/16/2002 5:45:46 PM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Joshua
Zenit is a Catholic news agency. A stumbling block to conversion for many Protestants has long been Catholic Marian devotion. This reform deflects attention from Mary to Christ, so it would supposedly have more appeal for those contemplating conversion. As for praying to "dead people", we Catholics believe strongly in the communion of saints. That is to say, we DO pray to the saints for their intercession with God. We also pray for the souls of those who have gone before us to the next world.
16 posted on 12/16/2002 5:54:16 PM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
"A stumbling block to conversion for many Protestants has long been Catholic Marian devotion. This reform deflects attention from Mary to Christ, so it would supposedly have more appeal for those contemplating conversion."

The point is that it isn't just the Marian worship that is a stumbling block. It is the praying of a rosary no matter who you are reflecting on. It is the prayer to the saints and the lost souls.

To think that someone grounded in his faith would change because of redirecting of rosary prayers is absurd.

The differences between the Catholics and the Protestants are much deeper than what this so called theologian claims

17 posted on 12/16/2002 6:20:17 PM PST by Joshua
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Joshua
I don't disagree with you. The differences are great, but the trend in the post-conciliar Church has been to obscure the differences in the hope that Protestants will become Catholics. From what I can see, the opposite is happening. Catholics are gradually becoming Protestants.
18 posted on 12/16/2002 8:24:05 PM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Joshua
dittoes
19 posted on 12/16/2002 10:57:02 PM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Joshua
mega-dittoes
20 posted on 12/16/2002 10:58:42 PM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
Amen...what reasons can you think of that a Protestant would "convert" to the Catholic Church? My conversion came when I was "born-again" by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...and was translated from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of the Son.
21 posted on 12/16/2002 11:02:08 PM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
There are Protestants and Protestants. Some of the mainline Protestant denominations have moved so far to the left on issues such as homosexuality and feminism that their members have become alienated. It's not surprising some of these find the Catholic Church more conservative and attractive. But also there have always been a certain percentage of Protestants who have studied the claims of the Catholic Church and found them historically valid and morally compelling. This is not a new phenomenon--though conversions have dropped precipitously since Vatican II.
22 posted on 12/16/2002 11:42:27 PM PST by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
the trend in the post-conciliar Church has been to obscure the differences in the hope that Protestants will become Catholics. From what I can see, the opposite is happening. Catholics are gradually becoming Protestants.

So true. Good insight.

23 posted on 12/17/2002 4:44:14 PM PST by Scupoli
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: sspxsteph
All they are doing is trying to make it look like the Protestants have just as good of a chance to get into heaven as Catholics. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Care to explain this preposterous statement?

24 posted on 12/17/2002 5:09:55 PM PST by Iowegian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Iowegian
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

25 posted on 12/17/2002 5:23:04 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
Which is it? You are contradicting your fellow churchman.
26 posted on 12/17/2002 5:33:26 PM PST by Iowegian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Iowegian
Which is it? You are contradicting your fellow churchman.

Never mind, ignore my post. You appear to suffer from "invincible ignorance" of the Catholic Church. My apologies.

27 posted on 12/17/2002 7:17:48 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
Unfortunately I know much more about the RCC than I wish I did. Apparently you can't (or won't) explain the contradiction then.
28 posted on 12/17/2002 8:02:43 PM PST by Iowegian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Iowegian
Apparently you can't (or won't) explain

Explain what? Your invicible ignorance?

29 posted on 12/17/2002 8:50:24 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
Are you being intentionally obtuse, or is that your natural state of mind?
30 posted on 12/17/2002 8:53:54 PM PST by Iowegian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: sspxsteph
You have to be Catholic to be saved?
31 posted on 12/18/2002 12:13:07 AM PST by Jael
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Joshua
Is Vatican radio Romes answer to NPR?

LOL! Thank you for finding some humor in this otherwise less-than-funny situation.

32 posted on 12/18/2002 4:48:36 AM PST by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Iowegian
Go back and read his post #25. He answered your questions there.
33 posted on 12/18/2002 9:10:10 AM PST by Scupoli
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Scupoli
If you think so then you don't understand the question either.
34 posted on 12/18/2002 4:16:06 PM PST by Iowegian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Iowegian
All they are doing is trying to make it look like the Protestants have just as good of a chance to get into heaven as Catholics. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Yea say a rosery and go to heaven take your get out of Jail free card and ...pass go to purgatory... incredible

35 posted on 12/18/2002 4:48:34 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: chance33_98
Rosary search--Our Lady of the Rosary Memorial
36 posted on 10/07/2003 2:37:56 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: drstevej; RnMomof7; xzins; CCWoody; CARepubGal; Wrigley; Delphinium; Jean Chauvin; Frumanchu; ...
Ping......


***When the document alludes to "the grace Mary gives us when we pray to her," it speaks of the grace that God gives us almost from Mary's hand, "but with an 'almost' as if to say she 'is and is not,'" the theologian said. (Stephan Tobler of the University of Tübingen, in Germany, a Reformed evangelical theologian)***

Reformed? I think not!

37 posted on 10/07/2003 2:50:33 PM PDT by Gamecock (Piel, a Pope for the rest of us!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7; drstevej; CCWoody; nobdysfool; xzins
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Can there be any doubt that Roman Catholicism is works-based? Here it is posited that one can 'lead an honest and upright life' and without putting any faith in the risen Christ be granted eternal life! It's one thing to argue that salvation is not by faith in Christ alone. It's quite another to argue for salvation without faith in Christ at all!!

38 posted on 10/07/2003 4:22:30 PM PDT by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Iowegian
All they are doing is trying to make it look like the Protestants have just as good of a chance to get into heaven as Catholics. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Care to explain this preposterous statement?


Try reading this.




http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/992292/posts

Self deception is a real issue
39 posted on 10/07/2003 8:37:54 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish; Iowegian
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

How does that compare to the Pope kissing the Koran and that Jews do not need to be converted, they have a different way of Salvation?

Personally I think it points to Dementia

40 posted on 10/07/2003 8:40:26 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Frumanchu
Can there be any doubt that Roman Catholicism is works-based? Here it is posited that one can 'lead an honest and upright life' and without putting any faith in the risen Christ be granted eternal life! It's one thing to argue that salvation is not by faith in Christ alone. It's quite another to argue for salvation without faith in Christ at all!!

There is some humor in all this Fue. The RC's I know have filthy mouths, smoke and drink . Yet these are the same folks that say we are saved by our works..

Watch the life any Born again believer and you will see people being change by the grace of God..That says alot

41 posted on 10/07/2003 8:45:01 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
RN, you have chosen, on your own volition, to leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, so you can't claim "invincible ignorance".
42 posted on 10/07/2003 8:55:01 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
Now the rationale is made plain: the Rosary, that most Marian of prayers, is to be made more Protestant-friendly by the addition of "Christological Prayers".

Christology is Mary's whole point, her only reason for existence. The Logos who alone gives meaning to the entire cosmos makes Mary uniquely relevant to all of us. If Mary were for an instant to start pointing to herself instead of to Christ -- if she were for an instant to suppose that the title "Mother of God" is about her -- she would immediately cease to be of any interest or use to the Church, and we'd be well rid of her.

In other words, that most CATHOLIC of all devotions is to be adjusted to suit those who find prayer to Mary herself distasteful.

It takes some doing to re-image Catholicism as something exclusive rather than universal, but you seem to be attempting just that.

"Hodigitria" means "She who shows the way"


43 posted on 10/07/2003 9:09:00 PM PDT by Romulus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
I vote for Heretic myself.
44 posted on 10/07/2003 9:57:31 PM PDT by CARepubGal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

As a Catholic I believe Mary has entered the Divine life of the Trinity, which is love. If Protestants believe that too, then I worship alongside them, in whatever way leads us to God, who is Father - and the mysteries of the rosary are the greatest truths in our faith.Surely Some attitudes are forbidden, though. We may not put any creature before God . and in this Catholic country there are still people who believe that Mary and God are equal, and some prefer her. Neither may we exalt baptism above the limits of God’s love and mercy - bitter angry Catholics need to submit ourselves humbly to a wise director of conscience. “in contemplation of the mystery.”


45 posted on 04/12/2008 10:40:03 AM PDT by fizzypilgrim
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio; surroundedbyblue; shurwouldluv_a_smallergov; Judith Anne; rkjohn; PadreL; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

46 posted on 12/18/2010 3:59:26 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson