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Do babies go to Heaven?

Posted on 12/29/2002 9:23:52 PM PST by PFKEY

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.


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1 posted on 12/29/2002 9:23:52 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: PFKEY
Do babies go to Heaven?

Who does, if they don't?

Matthew 19:13-14
Children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these."

2 posted on 12/29/2002 9:53:45 PM PST by heyheyhey
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To: heyheyhey
I know this passage well and believe that Heaven does indeed belong to them.
3 posted on 12/29/2002 9:56:53 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: PFKEY
And another one...
Matthew 18:1-5
The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
I hope this answers your question :-D
4 posted on 12/29/2002 10:00:17 PM PST by heyheyhey
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To: heyheyhey
Yes it does because I believe these passages to be true. The questions I had come up with regarding this had to do with people who believe in the 'elect' or the 144K or those that believe in original sin. Those sorta doctrines might be hard to reconcile with this belief. I have not heard this issue addressed in those terms and I am curious. Seeing we have so many Freepers of various faiths I thought this would be a great place to get an idea of what others believe.
5 posted on 12/29/2002 10:06:56 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: PFKEY
On the surface your question seems simple, but it is maybe more complex than one quickly realizes. Please read 2 Samuel 12:1-23 about the son that was born to David out of his adulterous affair/marriage with Bathsheba. The son died of an illness as an infant. David, who we know made it to heaven said in v23 "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." It appears that scripture supports infants going to heaven.

Note additionally that the "144k" of Revelation are followed by:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9.

His mercy endures forever, Amen.

6 posted on 12/30/2002 12:26:32 AM PST by kickme
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To: PFKEY
It used to be, that Catholics believed that unbaptised infants could not go to heaven. Therefore, in the case of a risky birth, the infant was baptised during the labour. St Francis Xavier, when travelling in Japan, lamented when a young boy died that he could not enter heaven, as he had not yet been baptised. The souls of unbaptised infants, it was said, went to "limbo". Presumably, this doctrine of limbo was developed because it seems so unjust that they should be in hell.

But that is a view of former centuries, and in the 20th century, most people in the church came to believe that all innocent beings could enter heaven.
7 posted on 12/30/2002 1:19:30 AM PST by BlackVeil
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To: BlackVeil; PFKEY
Presumably, this doctrine of limbo was developed because it seems so unjust that they should be in hell.

Limbo has never been a doctrine of the Church, it was a theological theory put forth by St. Augustine. The basis of his theory was an infant who dies unbaptized would have the stain of original sin on their soul. The official position of the Church is we trust these children to the mercy of God.

8 posted on 12/30/2002 5:04:36 AM PST by pegleg
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To: heyheyhey
**I hope this answers your question**

From the Catholic Church point of view!
9 posted on 12/30/2002 6:52:14 AM PST by Salvation
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To: PFKEY
A search of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church for "newborn" brought up these two references:

1-2 records returned of 2 matching NEWBORN .

24. "By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:
Whoever teaches must become 'all things to all men' [1 Cor 9:22], to win everyone to Christ. . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as NEWBORN babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers.... Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.[Roman Catechism, Preface II; cf. ; .]"
To view the context, please visit

2271. "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the NEWBORN to perish.[Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.]
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[GS 51 # 3.] "

10 posted on 12/30/2002 7:00:41 AM PST by Salvation
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To: PFKEY
It is a "De Fide" teaching of the Catholic Church that anyone who has the stain of original sin cannot enjoy the beatific vision. The theological debate over the centuries has been about what state the soul of an infant dying with original sin rests in. The prevailing view is that these souls will enjoy perfect happiness even though they do not enjoy the beatific vision.
11 posted on 12/30/2002 8:42:17 AM PST by Bellarmine
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To: PFKEY; kickme
I really don't know how you can drag 144k into the subject of whether babies go to heaven. I see nothing in those verses in REV. indicateing babies.
12 posted on 12/30/2002 10:30:09 PM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: PFKEY
I believe that they do. I think along with the situation already mentioned regarding David and his baby who died, that certain key verses in Romans would apply.

Especially those regarding the knowledge of the law, or lack thereof.

Romans 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 7:7  ¶What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law ...
13 posted on 12/30/2002 10:53:57 PM PST by Jael
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To: PFKEY

TRAMPLING THROUGH THE TULIPS

      Here is the one verse Calvinism killer:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the DEVIL and his angels:

      NOBODY was predestinated for hell, it wasn't even created for people. It was prepared for the devil and his angels.

      Predestination is not for salvation, it is what already saved people are predestinated to.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

      Not only was the predestination predicated on God's foreknowledge (He KNEW it would happen but didn't MAKE it happen), but it wasn't salvation at al, it was the CONFORMING, et al, that was predestinated for those who were already saved.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated US UNTO the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

      It's US (the saved) who are predestinated, UNTO the adoption.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

      Here it's the inheritance, and these are the only places any form of the word "predestinate" appear in scripture.

TULIP

TOTAL DEPRAVITY

      Man is depraved, but not totally. Otherwise no one would ever give to disabled vets. Every man who crossed paths with your wife would try to rape her.

      Certainly the will is not hindered, God unquestionably gave man a free will.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, WHOSOEVER WILL COME after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

      B. R. Lakin said that, "I believe in election. God voted for me, the devil voted against me, and now it's up to me to cast the deciding ballot!" Amen!

      This is very similar to irresistible grace below, and is refuted by the same scriptures.

LIMITED ATONEMENT

      The preposterous blasphemy that Jesus didn't die for everyone.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.

      Believers are set apart from "all men". Jesus died for ALL MEN, not just the elect, but SPECIALLY for them.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

      That covers just about everybody (unless there's a spaceflight in progress perhaps).

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE

      Anyone who sins knows that they can resist God. Either that, or God MAKES you sin, then it's not your fault and you couldn't be justly condemned.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

      When taught as eternal security, this is true. However, that's PRESERVATION (by God), not perseverance (by man). Many Calvinists believe that they must hold out to the end or they're not really one of the elect. That is actually the reverse of eternal security. Other Calvinists believe that this is a promise that God won't let an elect person die before he can get saved.

      Here's a real song sung by Calvinists, documented in Dr. Laurence Vance's book, "The Other Side of Calvinism":

      Can you imagine a Christian singing and rejoicing to such horrible lyrics? This one is much better,

      "WHOSOEVER WILL ... may come!"


Teno Groppi

14 posted on 12/30/2002 10:59:45 PM PST by Jael
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To: PFKEY; heyheyhey; RnMomof7
I personally can't see babies going to heaven if they die unless they were chosen from the beginning. I think the question is a red herring question that keeps cropping up in our culture, because we really can't see the sin nature in babies. Our concept of sin is based generally on works related things that we can see. When in reality, God looks beyond what we can see and sees the heart. And if you look hard enough you see that the Bible says we are born with a sinful heart, we inherit the sinful heart of Adam. We are born with it. So saying that with out any scriptural support at this moment. I'll say why should God judge babies any differently, they too have a sinful heart too. Just because they look cute doesn’t mean they are without sin. Mice are cute too, but that doesn’t mean we love them and cuddle them too. No we try to kill them too in our mousetraps. Well anyway I’m getting away from making my comments on the verses mentioned.
Matthew 19:13-14 Children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these."

The miss interruptions I see most people making is they interrupt the verse to say as these and ignore the such. To rephrase the verse it might be easier to understand the verse if we said "like these", but I really don't think it would make much different in a culture that has already predetermined in their mind that babies go to heaven. We think of Babies going to hell as something ungodly of God, even though they are not any better then grownups as far as the heart goes. Remember the heart is what condemms us, not our works, because our works are dependent on our heart. That why Jesus says some where else in scripture I never knew you,(basically I never knew your heart). God the father never gave me your guys heart to change.

The other verse mentioned

Matthew 18:1-5 The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.

The emphasis should be on the you and whoever not the Children. In other wise you should be as_______(fill in the blank) Children. I think Jesus is referring to the simplicity of a childs faith.

Again like I said at the beginning of my rant, I believe the question: “do babies go to heaven if they die? Is a red herring that Arminianists ask. I do believe if they really understood scripture they won’t be asking this question. The Arminianists spend to much time worshipping their babies instead of God. The only reason we should be having babies is because God instructed us as humans to go forth and populate the earth. Any other reason other then a reason that God gave us would be in sin. So I guess you can say a lot of babies are conceived out of sin since only about 50% or less are planned. But then again God doesn’t look at the works we do but at the heart. But not only is the idea that less 50% are conceived but that most women and some men want babies so that they can have something cuddly and cute. It’s like their ornament they put up on their tree of life to show others because that’s what is expected of them in their culture.

Well I’ve ranted and raved to much on this thread, I will bump it to Rnmomof7 to see if she wants to bump it to others, and I probably won’t response to any responses, but you can try to hook me though. I wasn’t planning on even getting this involved on any thread this week but you know they are contagious.

There are differing opinions on this subject within the Reform camp, most of them revolve around the verse in 2 Samuel 12:1-23 which I have no position on. I find it hard to take a position on just one verse or series of verses and like I said, I think you ought to be asking other questions in life concerning Scripture stuff, the depravity of the heart is a good starter.

15 posted on 12/30/2002 11:48:59 PM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: Jael
Well it looks like a new Arminianist has found this forum.
16 posted on 12/30/2002 11:53:31 PM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: ReformedBeckite
Arminianist

No, just a Bible Believer. :-)

17 posted on 12/31/2002 8:44:22 AM PST by Jael
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To: Jael
Most be reading a different Bible
18 posted on 12/31/2002 8:47:40 AM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: ReformedBeckite
Same one as always. the AV, King of Books!

It's very interesting, all means all in my Bible!!!

It's also got that inclusive language, whosoever will.

Revelation 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say,
Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will,
let him take the water of life freely.

19 posted on 12/31/2002 9:22:42 AM PST by Jael
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To: ReformedBeckite
I personally can't see babies going to heaven if they die unless they were chosen from the beginning.

I have a question for you, if you don't mind.

I think your argument falls flat here, with your comment above.

How can it be that anyone is saved, or born again, who doesn't believe? Are you assigning salvation to nothing more than God picking them?

It's a contradiction, do you see?

You are saying they would have to go to Hell because of their sin nature, yet the same would remain in place were they not born again.

Unless of course you consider Romans, where Paul says without the knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed.

But you don't consider that.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

20 posted on 12/31/2002 9:32:09 AM PST by Jael
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To: Jael; ReformedBeckite
Unless of course you consider Romans, where Paul says without the knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed.

Hm. What do you suppose that Paul means by this?

Let's consider a pagan cannibal in New Guinea who dies in 40 AD.
Per Romans, your thoughts?

21 posted on 12/31/2002 9:38:47 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Romans 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19  ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

An infant however would not be in the same category, for obvious reason.

22 posted on 12/31/2002 10:18:53 AM PST by Jael
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To: Jael
I Peter 1:1-2:-

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

I Peter 2:9:-

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Romans 8:28-33:-

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[10] who[11] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

23 posted on 12/31/2002 10:32:31 AM PST by Cleburne
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To: PFKEY
I believe that babies who die go to heaven.

I do not believe in predestination. We each came to earth with the ability to choose good and evil, and will be judged according to those choices. This ties in with babies going to heaven. They cannot choose good or evil. They're completely clueless. Therefore, in their innonence, they go to heaven.

As for the rest of us...well, that's why we have a Savior.
24 posted on 12/31/2002 10:53:31 AM PST by Luna
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To: Jael; ReformedBeckite
Posted by Jael to OrthodoxPresbyterian On Religion 12/31/2002 10:18 AM PST #22 of 24 Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. An infant however would not be in the same category, for obvious reason.

What "category" would an infant be in, and for what reason?

25 posted on 12/31/2002 11:12:41 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Jael
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Babies can clearly see what God has made, they just don't care about who made them or how the things they see got there, All they care about are themselves, they could care less about God. As they grow up they learn that the world doesn't revolve around them. Some adults never learn it though. Even most adults don't care how things God created God got there. I believe God treats them the all the same, he looks at their heart not their size, age or cuteness.

26 posted on 12/31/2002 11:14:45 AM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: Luna; ReformedBeckite; the_doc
I do not believe in predestination.

Then you don't believe in the Bible.

Predestination is a Bible word. Saying "I don't believe in Predestination" is like saying "I don't believe in Justification" or "I don't believe in Propitiation" or "I don't believe in Salvation".

Do that, and you'll be lying to yourself. Stop. Don't be dishonest with yourself.
Re-read what you said. It is exactly what you meant to say, after all.

That means that you've got some thinking (and praying) to do.

27 posted on 12/31/2002 11:20:45 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Luna
Therefore, in their innonence, they go to heaven.

They might be innocent in their outward appearance, but their heart is still at war with God. They could care less about God or anyone else, all they care about is themselves. In fact they are at war with their parents, right off the bat they start telling their parents what to do with crying. Unfortunately we don't understand them. I know that a bad example. Oh well that life.

If it's true that babies are without sin, which I don't believe, the best thing we could for them would be to kill them before they reach that Arminianist age of accountability. Well that crue isn't it. Well the facts of life sometimes are crue. That fact are we inherit Adam's sinfulness. Basically said we are born sinners, no fancy footing around it. We are born sinners, and are condemned as sinners from the beginning. Well I like to stay have more fun, but I've got other things to attend to to the night rolls around. Take care and God bless.

28 posted on 12/31/2002 11:33:40 AM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: Bellarmine
The prevailing view is that these souls will enjoy perfect happiness even though they do not enjoy the beatific vision.

That is not the current prevailing view.

"Baptism of desire" and the "fundamental option" assume that a Just God will give all creatures the opportunity for salvation and the beatific vision.

Just exactly how that is accomplished is pure speculation on our part.

29 posted on 12/31/2002 11:49:19 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: ReformedBeckite
They might be innocent in their outward appearance, but their heart is still at war with God. They could care less about God or anyone else, all they care about is themselves. In fact they are at war with their parents, right off the bat they start telling their parents what to do with crying.

This is the silliest damn thing I've ever read on the religion forum. You have no credibility, as a Christian or as a human being.

30 posted on 12/31/2002 11:55:10 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: ReformedBeckite
Obviously you are a disruptor or deranged, which, in fact, is the same thing. V's wife.
31 posted on 12/31/2002 11:59:30 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana; sinkspur
To: ReformedBeckite This is the silliest damn thing I've ever read on the religion forum. You have no credibility, as a Christian or as a human being. 30 posted on 12/31/2002 11:55 AM PST by sinkspur

To: ReformedBeckite Obviously you are a disruptor or deranged, which, in fact, is the same thing. V's wife. 31 posted on 12/31/2002 11:59 AM PST by ventana

Query:

True, or False?
Just curious....

32 posted on 12/31/2002 12:59:41 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: PFKEY; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; JesseShurun; gdebrae; ...
The question is not should babies be saved..but should ANY be saved??

Calvinist Bump

33 posted on 12/31/2002 1:08:10 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: PFKEY; the_doc
Do babies go to Heaven?

The first question to be asked, is:
Why do babies die?

34 posted on 12/31/2002 1:09:44 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: heyheyhey
Matthew 18:1-5 The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.

Was Jesus speaking of age or spiritual condition?

35 posted on 12/31/2002 1:10:21 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Jael
      "WHOSOEVER WILL ... may come!"

We would agree with that Jael..but would ask who will come? We say only those drawn by the Father

36 posted on 12/31/2002 1:13:01 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: ReformedBeckite
Thanks RB, Great Post ..we agree..and I have bumped:>)
37 posted on 12/31/2002 1:14:35 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Lying little rat babies. I save them up and then buy gas.
38 posted on 12/31/2002 1:16:17 PM PST by JesseShurun
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To: Cleburne
Nice to meet you cle..do you want on the reform bump list?
39 posted on 12/31/2002 1:16:27 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

True or false? V's wife.

40 posted on 12/31/2002 1:18:15 PM PST by ventana
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; ReformedBeckite
To: ReformedBeckite This is the silliest damn thing I've ever read on the religion forum. You have no credibility, as a Christian or as a human being. 30 posted on 12/31/2002 11:55 AM PST by sinkspur To: ReformedBeckite Obviously you are a disruptor or deranged, which, in fact, is the same thing. V's wife. 31 posted on 12/31/2002 11:59 AM PST by ventana

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Be Blessed RB

41 posted on 12/31/2002 1:19:14 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: PFKEY
Elect infants go to heaven. Non-elect infants do not.

It isn't rocket science, nor a difficult issue. This is probably the most philosophically discussed issue of religion, yet with the easiest answer.
42 posted on 12/31/2002 1:19:43 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: ventana
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. True or false? V's wife.

True. (GREAT irresistible grace passage, by the way).

Now, then, returning to my question:

True, or False?

43 posted on 12/31/2002 1:21:06 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: PFKEY
Just a point of information....

Those that believe in election do not believe only 144,000 will be saved.

That sort of nonsense is left to the cults like the JW's.
44 posted on 12/31/2002 1:21:29 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: RnMomof7
I trust the Righteous Judge to know best the eternal whereabouts of those who die before an age of awareness/decision.

All too often the non-believer gets sucked into these discussions. It allows them to avoid the question of their own response to Jesus, while they ponder the eternity of babies and the Watutsi who hasn't heard.

45 posted on 12/31/2002 1:22:01 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: anniegetyourgun
I trust the Righteous Judge to know best the eternal whereabouts of those who die before an age of awareness/decision. All too often the non-believer gets sucked into these discussions. It allows them to avoid the question of their own response to Jesus, while they ponder the eternity of babies and the Watutsi who hasn't heard.

Per'Zackly. (See #34)

46 posted on 12/31/2002 1:23:05 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: BlackVeil
And babies are innocent before a perfect and holy God?
47 posted on 12/31/2002 1:23:22 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jael
OOoh.....oh my you sure come up with some convincing arguments.

/sarcasm
48 posted on 12/31/2002 1:25:38 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: anniegetyourgun
I trust the Righteous Judge to know best the eternal whereabouts of those who die before an age of awareness/decision.

We agree...The God of Heaven NEVER judges unfairly...the scripture says "ALL men are without excuse" that includes those minutes old..and He that is Just will judge rightly!

49 posted on 12/31/2002 1:25:44 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Jael
BTW, Revelation says names were written.....and NOT WRITTEN in the book of life from the beginning of time. Clearly, God did not just prepare hell for the devil and his angels.
50 posted on 12/31/2002 1:27:03 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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