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To: PFKEY

TRAMPLING THROUGH THE TULIPS

      Here is the one verse Calvinism killer:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the DEVIL and his angels:

      NOBODY was predestinated for hell, it wasn't even created for people. It was prepared for the devil and his angels.

      Predestination is not for salvation, it is what already saved people are predestinated to.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

      Not only was the predestination predicated on God's foreknowledge (He KNEW it would happen but didn't MAKE it happen), but it wasn't salvation at al, it was the CONFORMING, et al, that was predestinated for those who were already saved.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated US UNTO the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

      It's US (the saved) who are predestinated, UNTO the adoption.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

      Here it's the inheritance, and these are the only places any form of the word "predestinate" appear in scripture.

TULIP

TOTAL DEPRAVITY

      Man is depraved, but not totally. Otherwise no one would ever give to disabled vets. Every man who crossed paths with your wife would try to rape her.

      Certainly the will is not hindered, God unquestionably gave man a free will.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, WHOSOEVER WILL COME after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

      B. R. Lakin said that, "I believe in election. God voted for me, the devil voted against me, and now it's up to me to cast the deciding ballot!" Amen!

      This is very similar to irresistible grace below, and is refuted by the same scriptures.

LIMITED ATONEMENT

      The preposterous blasphemy that Jesus didn't die for everyone.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.

      Believers are set apart from "all men". Jesus died for ALL MEN, not just the elect, but SPECIALLY for them.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

      That covers just about everybody (unless there's a spaceflight in progress perhaps).

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE

      Anyone who sins knows that they can resist God. Either that, or God MAKES you sin, then it's not your fault and you couldn't be justly condemned.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

      When taught as eternal security, this is true. However, that's PRESERVATION (by God), not perseverance (by man). Many Calvinists believe that they must hold out to the end or they're not really one of the elect. That is actually the reverse of eternal security. Other Calvinists believe that this is a promise that God won't let an elect person die before he can get saved.

      Here's a real song sung by Calvinists, documented in Dr. Laurence Vance's book, "The Other Side of Calvinism":

      Can you imagine a Christian singing and rejoicing to such horrible lyrics? This one is much better,

      "WHOSOEVER WILL ... may come!"


Teno Groppi

14 posted on 12/30/2002 10:59:45 PM PST by Jael
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To: Jael
Well it looks like a new Arminianist has found this forum.
16 posted on 12/30/2002 11:53:31 PM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: Jael
I Peter 1:1-2:-

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

I Peter 2:9:-

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Romans 8:28-33:-

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[10] who[11] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

23 posted on 12/31/2002 10:32:31 AM PST by Cleburne
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To: Jael
      "WHOSOEVER WILL ... may come!"

We would agree with that Jael..but would ask who will come? We say only those drawn by the Father

36 posted on 12/31/2002 1:13:01 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Jael
OOoh.....oh my you sure come up with some convincing arguments.

/sarcasm
48 posted on 12/31/2002 1:25:38 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jael
BTW, Revelation says names were written.....and NOT WRITTEN in the book of life from the beginning of time. Clearly, God did not just prepare hell for the devil and his angels.
50 posted on 12/31/2002 1:27:03 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jael
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.

Did you catch that last part? Ever heard of common grace? That is all the verse is talking about. Besides, if Jesus is the SAVIOR of all men, everyone is saved. That language does not simply imply that Jesus died so they could be saved....it indicates they ARE saved if you take the interpretation that it goes against Calvinism.
51 posted on 12/31/2002 1:30:04 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jael
BTW, that song is false and Vance is a liar and false minister of the Gospel.
52 posted on 12/31/2002 1:31:57 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jael
Amen to your post!
562 posted on 01/04/2003 1:39:32 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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