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Padre Pio: on Spirituality, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Missae
The Angelus Magazine | May 1999 | Fr. Jean, OFM Cap

Posted on 01/12/2003 9:17:25 PM PST by Scupoli

Padre Pio (May 25, 1887 - September 23, 1968) was beatified on May 2, 1999, and canonised on June 16, 2002 by Pope John Paul II. He is the only priest known to have received the full stigmata. He never celebrated the Novus Ordo Missae.

The final year of this dying, decaying century will see the beatification of Padre Pio, the holy monk whom God sent as a sign for our age. For, while everyone wants to make us believe in a new "charismatic" Church, strangely we do not find there any wonderworking saints like the ones we meet throughout the Church's history starting with Pentecost. Padre Pio seems to close the procession of their number, doing so magnificently, being the only priest to have borne the stigmata of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Much has been written about Padre Pio -more than 600 works, it seems -and the authors always stress the extraordinary side of his life: not only his particular charisms (reading souls, healing, raising people from the dead, bilocating, ecstasies, exuding perfume, prophesying, etc.), but also the incredible sufferings which he endured from his earliest childhood, the persecutions undergone from some churchmen and even brothers in religion, as well as his two great charitable works: the founding of the House of Suffering, and prayer groups.

In short, they present him to us as a "saint" more to be admired than imitated, so that, ultimately, we miss the most interesting lessons to be learned from this life, and the practical applications that could transform our own. We shall try, therefore, however imperfectly, to set forth a few of these lessons, hoping that we shall all be able to profit from them, and that the Padre, from high heaven, will himself succor us, as he has promised to all those who would like to become his "spiritual children."

At the dawn of this life totally sacrificed to God and to souls, there is to be found a pious, poor and numerous family, where the abnegation of each member softens and transforms the harsh realities of daily life. Here we see confirmed the saying of Mgr. de Segur that it is in families where the spirit of sacrifice is lacking that vocations are most at risk. Baptized the day after his birth - a grace for which he was grateful all his life -Padre Pio was christened Francesco, presage of his Franciscan vocation, which was to be discovered on the occasion of a visit from a Capuchin monk begging food for the convent. Even so, his vocation was not decided without struggle:

I felt two forces clashing within me, tearing my heart: the world wanted me for itself, and God called me to a new life. It would be impossible to describe this martyrdom. The mere memory of the battle that took place within me freezes the very blood in my veins....

He was not yet 16 years old when he entered the novitiate. Above the door of the cloister, as a welcome, he read the sign: "Do penance or perish." The daily rule of life included very many prayers, enough work, and little reading, being restricted especially to the study of the Rule and the Constitutions.

Brother Pio made himself conspicuous by the abundance of the tears he shed during the morning period of mental prayer, which in Capuchin houses is consecrated to the meditation of the Passion; tears so abundant that it was necessary to spread a towel in front of him on the floor of the choir. As with Saint Francis, it was to this loving and compassionate contemplation of Jesus crucified that he was to owe the grace to receive later on the painful stigmata in his body. Even so, as he confided to his spiritual director, Fr. Agostino: "In comparison to what I suffer in my flesh, the spiritual combats that I endure are much worse."

Atoning for Sinners: Interior Trials

It would seem that God expects the just to expiate in a special way, by means of temptation, the public sins of their contemporaries. At a time when psychoanalysis, with its knack for explaining away guilt and sin, was gaining sway, Padre Pio -like the little Theresa -had to undergo an almost unbearable crisis of scruples, which tormented him for three long years. Then after the storm came the night, a night of the soul which lasted for dozens of years, with only occasional glimmers of light:

I live in a perpetual night... I find myself troubled by everything, and I do not know if I act well or ill. I can see that it is not a scruple: but the doubt I feel about whether or not I am pleasing the Lord crushes me. And this anxiety recurs to me everywhere: at the altar, in the confessional, everywhere!

It is with the thought of his mystical experiences in mind that his maxims should be meditated: "Love is more beautiful in the company of fear, because it is in this way that it becomes stronger." "The more one loves God, the less one feels it!"

Saint Theresa of the Child Jesus opposed to the proud rationalism of her day the little way of spiritual childhood, but she also expiated it by terrible temptations against faith. Her cry, "I will believe!" is well known. Padre Pio also experience violent and prolonged temptations against faith, as his letters to Fr. Agostino testify:

Blasphemies cross my mind incessantly, and even more so false ideas, ideas of infidelity and unbelief. I feel my soul transfixed at every instant of my life, it kills me... My faith is upheld only by a constant effort of my will against every kind of human persuasion. My faith is only the fruit of the continual efforts that I exact of myself. And all of this, Father, is not something that happens a few times a day, but it is continuous... Father, how difficult it is to believe!

What precious lessons for us, should we, for example, be surprised at finding ourselves tempted to such a degree.

Spiritual Director

Padre Pio overcame these terrible trials by following what had been taught him in the novitiate: perseverance in prayer, mortification of the senses, unshakable fidelity to the demands of one's duty of state, and, finally, perfect obedience to the priest in charge of his soul. His painfully acquired experience allowed him to draw to himself souls desirous of perfection, and to be demanding.

To the souls he directed, he gave a five-point rule: weekly confession, daily communion and spiritual reading, examination of conscience each evening and mental prayer twice a day. As for the recitation of the rosary, it is so necessary it goes without saying....

Confession is the soul's bath. You must go at least once a week. I do not want souls to stay away from confession more than a week. Even a clean and unoccupied room gathers dust; return after a week and you will see that it needs dusting again!

To those who declare themselves unworthy to receive holy Communion, he answers:

It is quite true, we are not worthy of such a gift. However, to approach the Blessed Sacrament in a state of mortal sin is one thing, and to be unworthy, quite another. All of us are unworthy, but it is He who invites us. It is He who desires it. Let us humble ourselves and receive Him with a heart contrite and full of love.

To another, who told him that the daily examination of conscience seemed useless, since his conscience showed him clearly at each action whether it was good or bad, he replied:

That is true enough. But every experienced merchant in this world not only keeps track throughout the day of whether he has lost or gained on each sale. In the evening, he does the bookkeeping for the day to determine what he should do on the morrow. It follows that it is indispensable to make a rigorous examination of conscience, brief but lucid, every night.

The harm that comes to souls from the lack of reading holy books makes me shudder... What power spiritual reading has to lead to a change of course, and to make even worldly people enter into the way of perfection!

When Padre Pio was condemned to not exercise any ministry, he spent his free time, not in reading newspapers -"the Devil's gospel" -but in reading books of doctrine, history and spirituality. Despite this, he would still say: "One looks for God in books, but finds Him in prayer."

His counsels for mental prayer are simple:

If you do not succeed in meditating well, do not give up doing your duty. If the distractions are numerous, do not be discouraged; do the meditation of patience, and you will still profit. Decide upon the length of your meditation, and do not leave your place before finishing, even if you have to be crucified... Why do you worry so much because you do not know how to meditate as you would like? Meditation is a means to attaining God, but it is not a goal in itself. Meditation aims at the love of God and neighbor. Love God with all your soul without reserve, and love your neighbor as yourself, and you will have accomplished half of your meditation.

The same holds for assisting at the holy sacrifice of the Mass: it is more concerned with making acts (of contrition, faith, love...) than with intellectual reflections or considerations. To someone asking whether it is necessary to follow the Mass in a missal, Padre Pio answered that only the priest needs a missal. According to him, the best way to attend the holy sacrifice is by uniting oneself to the Virgin of Sorrows at the foot of the cross, in compassion and love. It is only in paradise, he assures his interlocutor, that we will learn of all the benefits that we received by assisting at holy Mass.

Padre Pio, who was so affable and pleasant in his relations with people, could become severe and inflexible when the honor of God was at stake, especially in church.

The whispering of the faithful would be authoritatively cut off by the Father, who would openly glare at anyone who failed to maintain a prayerful posture... If someone remained standing, even if it was because there were no places left in the pews, he would peremptorily invite him to kneel in order to participate worthily in the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

Not even an inattentive choirboy would be spared: "My child, if you want to go to hell, you don't need my signature."

The post-war fashions fell under the same censure:

Padre Pio, seated in his open confessional, all year round would ascertain that the women and girls who confessed to him were wearing skirts not too short. He would even cause tears to be shed when someone who had been waiting in line for hours would be turned away because of an offending hemline... Then some kind souls would step forward and offer help. In a corner, they would unsew the hem, or else lend the penitent a coat. Finally, sometimes the Father would allow the humiliated penitent to go to confession.

One day his spiritual director reproached him for his harsh conduct. He replied: "I could obey you, but each time it is Jesus who tells me how I am to deal with people." His severe manner, then, was inspired from above, uniquely for the honor of God and the salvation of souls.

Women who satisfy their vanity in their dress can never put on the life of Jesus Christ; moreover they even lose the ornaments of their soul as soon as this idol enters into their heart.

And let no one reproach him for lack of charity: "I beg you not to criticize me by invoking charity, because the greatest charity is to deliver souls held fast by Satan in order to win them over to Christ."

Padre Pio and the Novus Ordo Missae

He was a model of respect and submission towards his religious and ecclesiastical superiors, especially during the time when he was persecuted. Nonetheless, he could not remain silent over a deviation that was baneful to the Church. Even before the end of the Council, in February 1965, someone announced to him that soon he would have to celebrate the Mass according to a new rite, ad experimentum, in the vernacular, which had been devised by a conciliar liturgical commission in order to respond to the aspirations of modern man. Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of Saint Pius V. When Cardinal Bacci came to see him in order to bring the authorization, Padre Pio let a complaint escape in the presence of the Pope's messenger: "For pity sake, end the Council quickly."

The same year, during the conciliar euphoria that was promising a new springtime to the Church, he confided to one of his spiritual sons: "In this time of darkness, let us pray. Let us do penance for the elect"; and especially for the one who has to be their shepherd here below: All his life, he immolated himself for the reigning pope, whose photograph was among the rare images that decorated his cell.

Renewal of Religious Life?

There are other scenes from his life that are full of meaning, for example, his reactions to the aggiornamento of the religious orders concocted in the wake of Vatican II. (The citations here are taken from a book bearing an imprimatur):

In 1966, the Father General [of the Franciscans] came to Rome prior to the special Chapter on the Constitutions in order to ask Padre Pio for his prayers and benedictions. He met Padre Pio in the cloister. "Padre, I came to recommend to your prayers the special chapter for the new Constitutions..." He had scarcely gotten the words "special Chapter"..."new Constitutions" out of his mouth when Padre Pio made a violent gesture and cried out: "That is all nothing but destructive nonsense." "But Padre, after all, there is the younger generation to take into account...the youth evolve after their own fashion... there are new demands..." "The only thing missing is mind and heart, that's all, understanding and love." Then he proceeded to his cell, did a half-turn, and pointed his finger, saying: "We must not denature ourselves, we must not denature ourselves! At the Lord's judgment, Saint Francis will not recognize us as his sons!"

A year later, the same scene was repeated for the aggiornamento of the Capuchins:

One day, some confreres were discussing with the Father Definiteur General [The counselor or adviser to the general or provincial of a religious order -Ed.] the problems in the Order, when Padre Pio, taking a shocked attitude, cried out, with a distant look in his eye: "What in the world are you up to in Rome? What are you scheming? You even want to change the Rule of Saint Francis!" The Definiteur replied: "Padre, changes are being proposed because the youth don't want to have anything to do with the tonsure, the habit, bare feet...."

"Chase them out! Chase them out! What can you be saying? Is it they who are doing Saint Francis a favor by taking the habit and following his way of life, or rather, isn't it Saint Francis who is offering them a great gift?"

If we consider that Padre Pio was a veritable alter Christus, that his entire person, body and soul, was as perfectly conformed as possible to that of Jesus Christ, his stark refusal to accept the Novus Ordo and the aggiornamento should be for us a lesson to learn. It is also noteworthy that the good Lord desired to recall His faithful servant just before they were implacably imposed on the Church and the Capuchin Order. Noteworthy, too, is the fact that Katarina Tangari, one of Padre Pio's most privileged spiritual daughters, so admirably supported the priests [of the Society of Saint Pius X] of Ecône until her death, one year after the episcopal consecrations of 1988.

Final Lesson: Fatima

Padre Pio was even less obliging towards the prevailing social and political order, or rather, disorder (in 1966): "the confusion of ideas and the reign of thieves." He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight."

This should not surprise us, since the requests of our Lady of Fatima have not been listened to. He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass." Here again, his conclusion rejoins that of the Queen of Prophets: "But in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." The means by which this prophesy will come to pass, we know: by the divine power; but it must be prompted by the two great powers in man’s hands: prayer and penance. This is the lesson which our Lady wanted to remind us of at the beginning of this century: God wants to save the world by devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and there is no problem, material or spiritual, national or international, that cannot be solved by the holy Rosary and our sacrifices.

This is also the last lesson that Padre Pio wanted to leave us by his example, and especially by his "prayer groups," which he established throughout the world. "He was never without a rosary, there was even one under his pillow. During the day he recited several dozens of rosaries." A few hours before he died, as those around him urged him to speak a few more words, all he could say was: "Love the Blessed Virgin and make her loved. Always say the rosary!"

The imminent elevation of Venerable Padre Pio is certainly going to arouse in many souls both curiosity and admiration. We could take advantage of the opportunity to remind them of these few lessons, if indeed we know how to put them into practice ourselves, in the merciful love of the Most Holy Hearts of Jesus and Mary.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: padrepio
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1 posted on 01/12/2003 9:17:25 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Land of the Irish; HDMZ; ultima ratio; Maximilian; Zviadist; Loyalist; Francisco; smevin; Grigeo; ..
Ping!

I was sent this link and I absolutely loved the story on Padre Pio. Just wanted to share it if you're interested.

2 posted on 01/12/2003 9:21:19 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Here is another article:

BLESSED PADRE PIO

Padre Pio da Pietrelcina, O.F.M. Cap. (May 25, 1887-September 23, 1968) was ordained priest (Capuchin) on August 10, 1910. He received visible stigmata on September 20, 1918. The Vatican suspended him for a time and issued five decrees against him. From 1931 to 1933 he was not allowed to celebrate Mass publicly or to hear confessions. Pope Pius XI said that he had been "badly misinformed" about Padre Pio.

Just once Padre Pio celebrated a "Missa Normativa," or interim Mass, and never did so again, begging to be dispensed. He never said Mass in Italian or facing the people. Pope Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae of 1969 was introduced more than a year after Padre Pio had died.

"Even before the end of the Council, in February 1965, someone announced to him that soon he would have to celebrate the Mass according to a new rite, ad experimentum, in the vernacular, which had been devised by a conciliar liturgical commission in order to respond to the aspirations of modern man. Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V. When Cardinal Bacci came to see him in order to bring the authorization, Padre Pio let a complaint escape in the presence of the Pope's messenger: "For pity sake, end the Council quickly." (Rev. Fr. Jean, O.F.M., Cap., "Padre Pio," apud Angelus, May 1999, p. 31)

A video of Padre Pio that the Novus Ordo parishes loan out tries to make the last Mass he said before he died look like a Novus Ordo Mass facing the people. I've been told by a traditional priest that he, Padre Pio, was not strong enough to walk up to the altar, and so they put an altar (probably a table) down below the altar for him and then proceeded to make a video of his Mass going around him making it look like he was facing the people, as there were people on all sides. So they try to say he celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass for his final Mass, when in fact this statement is not true.

3 posted on 01/12/2003 9:24:30 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of Saint Pius V.

St. Padre Pio bump

4 posted on 01/12/2003 9:30:52 PM PST by Dajjal (really, that should be Po-Po-No-Tho, since we're now in "After")
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To: Scupoli
read later
5 posted on 01/12/2003 9:38:49 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Scupoli
Thamks for posting this.
6 posted on 01/13/2003 3:35:35 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: Scupoli
Thanks for the inspiring post. I will print this out and read it to my children.
7 posted on 01/13/2003 9:58:27 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: Scupoli
Padre Pio was even less obliging towards the prevailing social and political order, or rather, disorder (in 1966): "the confusion of ideas and the reign of thieves." He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight."

He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass."

Thank you for posting this article...one of my patron Saints.
8 posted on 01/13/2003 4:00:22 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Domestic Church
He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass."

Yes, I remember reading that. I didn't know what to make of it.

9 posted on 01/13/2003 4:16:45 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Domestic Church
He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight."

Where did this happen? Twenty years after Pio's death, a Pope and a US President brought Soviet Communism to its knees.

10 posted on 01/13/2003 4:17:44 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
Yes, I remember reading that. I didn't know what to make of it.

Don't make anything of it. Saints are still human beings and prophecy is not given to all of them.

11 posted on 01/13/2003 4:19:08 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
Padre Pio was excused from the Novus Ordo because he was too old to learn how to say it - common with the older priests.

Nothing sinister!

12 posted on 01/13/2003 4:23:52 PM PST by american colleen
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To: Domestic Church
He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass."

Why assume Padre Pio meant the red flag of Communism?

From the Palestine Facts website:

The Meaning of the Arab Flag: RED

The Khawarij were the first Islamic group to emerge after the assassination of Caliph Uthman III, forming the first republican party in the early days of Islam. Their symbol was the red flag. Arab tribes who participated in the conquest of North Africa and Andalusia carried the red flag, which became the symbol of the Islamic rulers of Andalusia (756-1355). In modern times, red symbolizes the Ashrafs of the Hijaz and the Hashemites, descendants of the Prophet. Sharif Hussein designed the current flag as the flag of the Arab Revolt on June 1916. The Palestinian people raised it as the flag of the Arab National movement in 1917. In 1947, the Arab Ba'ath Party interpreted the flag as a symbol of the liberation and unity of the Arab nation. The Palestinian people readopted the flag at the Palestinian conference in Gaza in 1948. The flag was recognized by the Arab League as the flag of the Palestinian people. It was further endorsed by the PLO, the representative of the Palestinians, at the Palestinian conference in Jerusalem in 1964.

13 posted on 01/13/2003 4:27:24 PM PST by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc ping list. Freepmail me for details.)
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To: sinkspur
Do you believe in prophecy at all?
14 posted on 01/13/2003 4:27:40 PM PST by Codie
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To: sinkspur
Padre Pio was well known to have the gift of prophecy.
15 posted on 01/13/2003 4:30:16 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: american colleen
That is not what the articles say.

Just once Padre Pio celebrated a "Missa Normativa," or interim Mass, and never did so again, begging to be dispensed. He never said Mass in Italian or facing the people. Pope Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae of 1969 was introduced more than a year after Padre Pio had died.

"Even before the end of the Council, in February 1965, someone announced to him that soon he would have to celebrate the Mass according to a new rite, ad experimentum, in the vernacular, which had been devised by a conciliar liturgical commission in order to respond to the aspirations of modern man. Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V. When Cardinal Bacci came to see him in order to bring the authorization, Padre Pio let a complaint escape in the presence of the Pope's messenger: "For pity sake, end the Council quickly." (Rev. Fr. Jean, O.F.M., Cap., "Padre Pio," apud Angelus, May 1999, p. 31)

16 posted on 01/13/2003 4:33:26 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
Do you believe in prophecy at all?

Yes. But there are few prophets, in any age.

17 posted on 01/13/2003 4:34:07 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
Padre Pio was well known to have the gift of prophecy.

When?

18 posted on 01/13/2003 4:35:30 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
So,which ones in this age do you deem worthy?
19 posted on 01/13/2003 4:38:10 PM PST by Codie
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To: Loyalist
Why assume Padre Pio meant the red flag of Communism?

From the Palestine Facts website:

The Meaning of the Arab Flag: RED

I had not thought of that. It is believed by many that after the Muslims completely take Jerusalem they will go for the Vatican next. They are overwhelming Italy now with their sheer numbers. Even a quick study of their theology (and history) tells us they plan to take over Christianity and the West must submit to Islam. What bigger symbol or seat of power than the Vatican?

20 posted on 01/13/2003 4:39:31 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: sinkspur
Much has been written about Padre Pio -more than 600 works, it seems -and the authors always stress the extraordinary side of his life: not only his particular charisms (reading souls, healing, raising people from the dead, bilocating, ecstasies, exuding perfume, prophesying, etc

All his life! Don't you read any of the great works and the great Saints of the Church?

21 posted on 01/13/2003 4:44:15 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Although Islam's traditional colour is green, there are plenty of Islamic red flags:
TURKEY


MOROCCO


TUNISIA


KYRGYZSTAN

22 posted on 01/13/2003 5:05:16 PM PST by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc ping list. Freepmail me for details.)
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To: sinkspur
Sinkspur, look at what is happening in South America these days...socialism is live and growing and the fat lady hasn't sung over Europe yet so it is still smouldering there...not to mention China. And if Hillary Clinton is ever elected we could see it entrenched here.

As an aside, Maria Esperenza of Betania said over a decade ago that it will be up to the US to save the world.
23 posted on 01/13/2003 5:08:11 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Loyalist
"The Meaning of the Arab Flag: RED"

Very good point...especially in mind of St.Malachi's prophecy.
24 posted on 01/13/2003 5:10:23 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Scupoli
I think your nuts.
25 posted on 01/13/2003 5:10:35 PM PST by Codie
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To: sinkspur
Padre Pio told Pope JP II many years back that he would be the Pope.
26 posted on 01/13/2003 5:12:24 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Scupoli
Don't you read any of the great works and the great Saints of the Church?

Mother Teresa, John XXIII, Fulton Sheen, John Vianney, many others.

Haven't gotten around to Padre Pio.

27 posted on 01/13/2003 5:12:45 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Codie
Excuse me? Care to elaborate on that or was that simply an uncharitable personal attack?
28 posted on 01/13/2003 5:14:26 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
So,which ones in this age do you deem worthy?

Don't know. Medjurgore and anyone associated with it is not among them, however.

29 posted on 01/13/2003 5:15:32 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
They are overwhelming Italy now with their sheer numbers. Even a quick study of their theology (and history) tells us they plan to take over Christianity and the West must submit to Islam. What bigger symbol or seat of power than the Vatican?

Do you honestly believe this will ever happen?

30 posted on 01/13/2003 5:25:23 PM PST by Codie
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To: Codie
It's happening now. Do you follow the news media? Italy is being overrun with Muslims and terrorists as are many other countries. Just why do you think this is happening? Why do you think the Crusades occurred? Hint: to HALT MUSLIM AGGRESSION. The Crusaders fought to protect the Vatican and the Holy Lands. The Muslims convert by the sword. They believe that all Christians and Jews should become Muslims and that Jesus will return at the end of time to slaughter any believers who have not converted to Islam. This "faith" is not your friend. Do you understand this? Here is one of several websites you can study to see what they have in store for you in their own words. http://www.islamworld.net

The contents of the Third Secret of Fatima are believed by many to refer to a Great Apostacy among the faithful. But, if the version released by the Vatican has any element of truth to it, ie, the Bishop in white walking in the river of blood of martyrs, it could easily refer to an attack on the Vatican.

Learn about what Islam teaches, then put it in the context of Catholic prophecy.

31 posted on 01/13/2003 5:44:22 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Islam does not have the military power to invade Disneyland.Think about that.
32 posted on 01/13/2003 5:52:55 PM PST by Codie
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To: Scupoli
I recently read an article posted on Catholic Family News detailing how Padre Pio's body has gone missing from his crypt... but his sandals are there. The story details how the Vatican is well aware of this (having exhumed his body) but they are keeping it a secret (that is, until CFN ferreted it out). So I am pretty leary of articles with no backup proof. :-)

Padre Pio was totally obedient to the Church and the magisterium - during the pontificate of Pius XI (1922-1939) Padre Pio was segregated from the Church; he was forbidden to say public Mass, hear confession or answer personal letters. And he obeyed. Only in 1933 was Padre Pio allowed to return to the ministry.

The older priests were not required to learn the New Mass as it would have been almost impossible. I am at work and in between earning my salary I'll try to find you the documentation on that if you wish... but it only makes sense anyway.

33 posted on 01/13/2003 5:53:59 PM PST by american colleen (what's a nice girl like me doing in a place like this??)
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To: Codie
Who needs an overt military action when you have silently infiltrated and overtaken (population-wise) every Western country?

Think about it.

34 posted on 01/13/2003 5:59:53 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
I think your nuts.
35 posted on 01/13/2003 6:07:20 PM PST by Codie
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To: american colleen
I read the same article. You disagreed with it? I couldn't say for sure either way as I was not there, but it's possible. No one would believe it though.

I understand what you are saying in regards to the older priests. I don't need documentation. I trust you. But, it is well documented in some many places that Padre Pio did not have any great love for the N.O. or Vatican II. I often wonder how he would have handled the future given those feelings and his strong obedience to the Church. At this point, it's anyone's guess, although I have read (this article?--can't remember) that one of his spiritual directees maintained strong support for the Traditional Mass and its priests up until her death in the 80's.

36 posted on 01/13/2003 6:08:25 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
Perhaps when you develop better debating skills we can talk again. Until then, don't waste my time with your immature and uncharitable personal attacks.
37 posted on 01/13/2003 6:13:56 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
regarding "silently infiltrated and overtaken" and the current scandals, some real and some bogus:

"As a prelude to an attempted takeover of the church, Hitler removed some of his opposition by falsely accusing churchmen of treason, theft, or sexual malpractices. Goebbels, the propaganda minister, insisted that those trials be published in detail in newspapers, thus parading lurid details about known ministers, priests, and nuns. Priests who warned parents against letting their children become part of the Hitler Youth were subject to blackmail. Thus Hitler silenced the mouths of those who would dare oppose him. Catholic priests, nuns, and church leaders were arrested on trumped-up charges, and religious publications were suppressed." Lutzer, Erwin W., Hitler's Cross, p114, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995)

On the Gramscian Marxist subversion of Faith:

http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b555c262d74.htm
38 posted on 01/13/2003 6:27:12 PM PST by Domestic Church (not to mention the ghost of Antonio Gramsci behind Hillary Clinton)
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To: Scupoli
There is nothing to debate you've zero facts, and alot of opinion.
39 posted on 01/13/2003 6:27:39 PM PST by Codie
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To: Scupoli
I disagreed with the article because it was too big a story for it to not have leaked out had it been true. Then I did a bit of research on CFN and realized that a lot of their information is dicey... lots of opinions and little back up. IMO, of course!

Padre Pio probably didn't have a lot of love for the NO. From what I've read, Fulton Sheen didn't either. Not a lot of us (on FR, anyway) do (because of the myriad of abuses of it). But Fulton Sheen (another obedient priest, I've read that Spellman put him through hell) said the NO Mass and did not try to supress it and keep the Tridentine.

Who knows? I just took a *bit* of offense at one of the first lines in the article -- "He never celebrated the Novus Ordo Missae." --- like what does that have to do with anything???

40 posted on 01/13/2003 7:05:51 PM PST by american colleen
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To: Domestic Church
Is Antonio Gramsci a prophet?
41 posted on 01/13/2003 7:08:03 PM PST by Codie
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To: Codie
He's a marxist (considered so dangerous Mussolini threw him in jail) and wrote extensively on undermining capitalist societies initially through the institutions of religion and education. Supposedly Hillary did her senior paper on him.
42 posted on 01/13/2003 7:28:07 PM PST by Domestic Church (not to mention the ghost of Antonio Gramsci behind Hillary Clinton)
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To: Scupoli
Great post, Scupoli, on a great, persecuted saint.
43 posted on 01/13/2003 7:55:57 PM PST by Land of the Irish
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Scupoli
Scupoli, thank you for the wonderful post. As for being on the receiving end of "I think your nuts" (not once, which would be understandable, but twice!! ), I congratulate you. Your opposition has spoken, and with what eloquence!!

As for myself, I think you're top shelf. Regards,

45 posted on 01/13/2003 9:26:01 PM PST by Grigeo
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To: Scupoli
The final year of this dying, decaying century will see the beatification of Padre Pio, the holy monk

Padre Pio was not a monk.

46 posted on 01/17/2003 1:08:22 PM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode
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To: Codie
I think your nuts.

I don't think you've done your homework. Italians are only now starting to become aware of the muslim menace in their own country. Italy currently has a negative birthrate. The muslims coming into the country have a very, very positive birthrate. Do the math. I read estimates that show Italians a minority in their own country within 50 years. The Dutch are already practically there.

Unless things change radically, much of Western Europe is in deep doo-doo.

If it makes you feel better, continue to believe this is nuts. That way, you'll be surprised when the sword of Islam comes to your town...
47 posted on 01/17/2003 1:26:27 PM PST by Antoninus
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To: Antoninus
I'm sorry I just don't agree with you.I don't feel Islam is a major threat.There are actually times when I'm more concerned about Protestant fundamentalism.
48 posted on 01/17/2003 2:36:50 PM PST by Codie
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode
You're going to have to elaborate here. I'm not sure where you are going with this.
49 posted on 01/17/2003 3:25:25 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Antoninus
Italians are only now starting to become aware of the muslim menace in their own country.

Another interesting post about Italians...

POPE WOJTYLA'S "SWAN SONG"

"Pope Wojtyla's pontificate is coming to an end and as a result the influence of the Polish group in the Vatican leadership has notably weakened. Without waiting for John Paul II's death, the traditionally influential Italian group has been trying to get revenge for the almost 25 year long rule of the Polish pope. According to information obtained by NG, a purge of the ranks now is taking place in the Vatican, during which "Wojtyla's people" are quietly being removed from their positions.

The position of the Italian group, including that on matters of the foreign policy of the Vatican, is often at variance with the policy of the pope and his entourage. In the first place, this pertains to the Vatican's "eastern policy" and its relations with RPTs. In the dispute over the establishment in Russian of Catholic dioceses, Italian Catholics frequently have spoken out on the side of the Russian Orthodox church. In the past six months, several delegations from various Italian dioceses of the Roman Catholic church have visited the Moscow patriarchate and they have openly expressed support for the position of RPTs."

50 posted on 01/17/2003 3:57:52 PM PST by MarMema
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