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Padre Pio: on Spirituality, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Missae
The Angelus Magazine | May 1999 | Fr. Jean, OFM Cap

Posted on 01/12/2003 9:17:25 PM PST by Scupoli

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1 posted on 01/12/2003 9:17:25 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Land of the Irish; HDMZ; ultima ratio; Maximilian; Zviadist; Loyalist; Francisco; smevin; Grigeo; ..
Ping!

I was sent this link and I absolutely loved the story on Padre Pio. Just wanted to share it if you're interested.

2 posted on 01/12/2003 9:21:19 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Here is another article:

BLESSED PADRE PIO

Padre Pio da Pietrelcina, O.F.M. Cap. (May 25, 1887-September 23, 1968) was ordained priest (Capuchin) on August 10, 1910. He received visible stigmata on September 20, 1918. The Vatican suspended him for a time and issued five decrees against him. From 1931 to 1933 he was not allowed to celebrate Mass publicly or to hear confessions. Pope Pius XI said that he had been "badly misinformed" about Padre Pio.

Just once Padre Pio celebrated a "Missa Normativa," or interim Mass, and never did so again, begging to be dispensed. He never said Mass in Italian or facing the people. Pope Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae of 1969 was introduced more than a year after Padre Pio had died.

"Even before the end of the Council, in February 1965, someone announced to him that soon he would have to celebrate the Mass according to a new rite, ad experimentum, in the vernacular, which had been devised by a conciliar liturgical commission in order to respond to the aspirations of modern man. Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V. When Cardinal Bacci came to see him in order to bring the authorization, Padre Pio let a complaint escape in the presence of the Pope's messenger: "For pity sake, end the Council quickly." (Rev. Fr. Jean, O.F.M., Cap., "Padre Pio," apud Angelus, May 1999, p. 31)

A video of Padre Pio that the Novus Ordo parishes loan out tries to make the last Mass he said before he died look like a Novus Ordo Mass facing the people. I've been told by a traditional priest that he, Padre Pio, was not strong enough to walk up to the altar, and so they put an altar (probably a table) down below the altar for him and then proceeded to make a video of his Mass going around him making it look like he was facing the people, as there were people on all sides. So they try to say he celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass for his final Mass, when in fact this statement is not true.

3 posted on 01/12/2003 9:24:30 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of Saint Pius V.

St. Padre Pio bump

4 posted on 01/12/2003 9:30:52 PM PST by Dajjal (really, that should be Po-Po-No-Tho, since we're now in "After")
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To: Scupoli
read later
5 posted on 01/12/2003 9:38:49 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Scupoli
Thamks for posting this.
6 posted on 01/13/2003 3:35:35 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: Scupoli
Thanks for the inspiring post. I will print this out and read it to my children.
7 posted on 01/13/2003 9:58:27 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: Scupoli
Padre Pio was even less obliging towards the prevailing social and political order, or rather, disorder (in 1966): "the confusion of ideas and the reign of thieves." He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight."

He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass."

Thank you for posting this article...one of my patron Saints.
8 posted on 01/13/2003 4:00:22 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Domestic Church
He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass."

Yes, I remember reading that. I didn't know what to make of it.

9 posted on 01/13/2003 4:16:45 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Domestic Church
He prophesied that the Communists would come to power, "by surprise, without firing a shot... It will happen overnight."

Where did this happen? Twenty years after Pio's death, a Pope and a US President brought Soviet Communism to its knees.

10 posted on 01/13/2003 4:17:44 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
Yes, I remember reading that. I didn't know what to make of it.

Don't make anything of it. Saints are still human beings and prophecy is not given to all of them.

11 posted on 01/13/2003 4:19:08 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
Padre Pio was excused from the Novus Ordo because he was too old to learn how to say it - common with the older priests.

Nothing sinister!

12 posted on 01/13/2003 4:23:52 PM PST by american colleen
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To: Domestic Church
He even told Mgr. Piccinelli, that the red flag will fly over the Vatican, "but that will pass."

Why assume Padre Pio meant the red flag of Communism?

From the Palestine Facts website:

The Meaning of the Arab Flag: RED

The Khawarij were the first Islamic group to emerge after the assassination of Caliph Uthman III, forming the first republican party in the early days of Islam. Their symbol was the red flag. Arab tribes who participated in the conquest of North Africa and Andalusia carried the red flag, which became the symbol of the Islamic rulers of Andalusia (756-1355). In modern times, red symbolizes the Ashrafs of the Hijaz and the Hashemites, descendants of the Prophet. Sharif Hussein designed the current flag as the flag of the Arab Revolt on June 1916. The Palestinian people raised it as the flag of the Arab National movement in 1917. In 1947, the Arab Ba'ath Party interpreted the flag as a symbol of the liberation and unity of the Arab nation. The Palestinian people readopted the flag at the Palestinian conference in Gaza in 1948. The flag was recognized by the Arab League as the flag of the Palestinian people. It was further endorsed by the PLO, the representative of the Palestinians, at the Palestinian conference in Jerusalem in 1964.

13 posted on 01/13/2003 4:27:24 PM PST by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc ping list. Freepmail me for details.)
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To: sinkspur
Do you believe in prophecy at all?
14 posted on 01/13/2003 4:27:40 PM PST by Codie
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To: sinkspur
Padre Pio was well known to have the gift of prophecy.
15 posted on 01/13/2003 4:30:16 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: american colleen
That is not what the articles say.

Just once Padre Pio celebrated a "Missa Normativa," or interim Mass, and never did so again, begging to be dispensed. He never said Mass in Italian or facing the people. Pope Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae of 1969 was introduced more than a year after Padre Pio had died.

"Even before the end of the Council, in February 1965, someone announced to him that soon he would have to celebrate the Mass according to a new rite, ad experimentum, in the vernacular, which had been devised by a conciliar liturgical commission in order to respond to the aspirations of modern man. Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V. When Cardinal Bacci came to see him in order to bring the authorization, Padre Pio let a complaint escape in the presence of the Pope's messenger: "For pity sake, end the Council quickly." (Rev. Fr. Jean, O.F.M., Cap., "Padre Pio," apud Angelus, May 1999, p. 31)

16 posted on 01/13/2003 4:33:26 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
Do you believe in prophecy at all?

Yes. But there are few prophets, in any age.

17 posted on 01/13/2003 4:34:07 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
Padre Pio was well known to have the gift of prophecy.

When?

18 posted on 01/13/2003 4:35:30 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
So,which ones in this age do you deem worthy?
19 posted on 01/13/2003 4:38:10 PM PST by Codie
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To: Loyalist
Why assume Padre Pio meant the red flag of Communism?

From the Palestine Facts website:

The Meaning of the Arab Flag: RED

I had not thought of that. It is believed by many that after the Muslims completely take Jerusalem they will go for the Vatican next. They are overwhelming Italy now with their sheer numbers. Even a quick study of their theology (and history) tells us they plan to take over Christianity and the West must submit to Islam. What bigger symbol or seat of power than the Vatican?

20 posted on 01/13/2003 4:39:31 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: sinkspur
Much has been written about Padre Pio -more than 600 works, it seems -and the authors always stress the extraordinary side of his life: not only his particular charisms (reading souls, healing, raising people from the dead, bilocating, ecstasies, exuding perfume, prophesying, etc

All his life! Don't you read any of the great works and the great Saints of the Church?

21 posted on 01/13/2003 4:44:15 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Although Islam's traditional colour is green, there are plenty of Islamic red flags:
TURKEY


MOROCCO


TUNISIA


KYRGYZSTAN

22 posted on 01/13/2003 5:05:16 PM PST by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc ping list. Freepmail me for details.)
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To: sinkspur
Sinkspur, look at what is happening in South America these days...socialism is live and growing and the fat lady hasn't sung over Europe yet so it is still smouldering there...not to mention China. And if Hillary Clinton is ever elected we could see it entrenched here.

As an aside, Maria Esperenza of Betania said over a decade ago that it will be up to the US to save the world.
23 posted on 01/13/2003 5:08:11 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Loyalist
"The Meaning of the Arab Flag: RED"

Very good point...especially in mind of St.Malachi's prophecy.
24 posted on 01/13/2003 5:10:23 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Scupoli
I think your nuts.
25 posted on 01/13/2003 5:10:35 PM PST by Codie
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To: sinkspur
Padre Pio told Pope JP II many years back that he would be the Pope.
26 posted on 01/13/2003 5:12:24 PM PST by Domestic Church (O come O come Emmanuel!)
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To: Scupoli
Don't you read any of the great works and the great Saints of the Church?

Mother Teresa, John XXIII, Fulton Sheen, John Vianney, many others.

Haven't gotten around to Padre Pio.

27 posted on 01/13/2003 5:12:45 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Codie
Excuse me? Care to elaborate on that or was that simply an uncharitable personal attack?
28 posted on 01/13/2003 5:14:26 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
So,which ones in this age do you deem worthy?

Don't know. Medjurgore and anyone associated with it is not among them, however.

29 posted on 01/13/2003 5:15:32 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Scupoli
They are overwhelming Italy now with their sheer numbers. Even a quick study of their theology (and history) tells us they plan to take over Christianity and the West must submit to Islam. What bigger symbol or seat of power than the Vatican?

Do you honestly believe this will ever happen?

30 posted on 01/13/2003 5:25:23 PM PST by Codie
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To: Codie
It's happening now. Do you follow the news media? Italy is being overrun with Muslims and terrorists as are many other countries. Just why do you think this is happening? Why do you think the Crusades occurred? Hint: to HALT MUSLIM AGGRESSION. The Crusaders fought to protect the Vatican and the Holy Lands. The Muslims convert by the sword. They believe that all Christians and Jews should become Muslims and that Jesus will return at the end of time to slaughter any believers who have not converted to Islam. This "faith" is not your friend. Do you understand this? Here is one of several websites you can study to see what they have in store for you in their own words. http://www.islamworld.net

The contents of the Third Secret of Fatima are believed by many to refer to a Great Apostacy among the faithful. But, if the version released by the Vatican has any element of truth to it, ie, the Bishop in white walking in the river of blood of martyrs, it could easily refer to an attack on the Vatican.

Learn about what Islam teaches, then put it in the context of Catholic prophecy.

31 posted on 01/13/2003 5:44:22 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
Islam does not have the military power to invade Disneyland.Think about that.
32 posted on 01/13/2003 5:52:55 PM PST by Codie
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To: Scupoli
I recently read an article posted on Catholic Family News detailing how Padre Pio's body has gone missing from his crypt... but his sandals are there. The story details how the Vatican is well aware of this (having exhumed his body) but they are keeping it a secret (that is, until CFN ferreted it out). So I am pretty leary of articles with no backup proof. :-)

Padre Pio was totally obedient to the Church and the magisterium - during the pontificate of Pius XI (1922-1939) Padre Pio was segregated from the Church; he was forbidden to say public Mass, hear confession or answer personal letters. And he obeyed. Only in 1933 was Padre Pio allowed to return to the ministry.

The older priests were not required to learn the New Mass as it would have been almost impossible. I am at work and in between earning my salary I'll try to find you the documentation on that if you wish... but it only makes sense anyway.

33 posted on 01/13/2003 5:53:59 PM PST by american colleen (what's a nice girl like me doing in a place like this??)
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To: Codie
Who needs an overt military action when you have silently infiltrated and overtaken (population-wise) every Western country?

Think about it.

34 posted on 01/13/2003 5:59:53 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Scupoli
I think your nuts.
35 posted on 01/13/2003 6:07:20 PM PST by Codie
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To: american colleen
I read the same article. You disagreed with it? I couldn't say for sure either way as I was not there, but it's possible. No one would believe it though.

I understand what you are saying in regards to the older priests. I don't need documentation. I trust you. But, it is well documented in some many places that Padre Pio did not have any great love for the N.O. or Vatican II. I often wonder how he would have handled the future given those feelings and his strong obedience to the Church. At this point, it's anyone's guess, although I have read (this article?--can't remember) that one of his spiritual directees maintained strong support for the Traditional Mass and its priests up until her death in the 80's.

36 posted on 01/13/2003 6:08:25 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
Perhaps when you develop better debating skills we can talk again. Until then, don't waste my time with your immature and uncharitable personal attacks.
37 posted on 01/13/2003 6:13:56 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Codie
regarding "silently infiltrated and overtaken" and the current scandals, some real and some bogus:

"As a prelude to an attempted takeover of the church, Hitler removed some of his opposition by falsely accusing churchmen of treason, theft, or sexual malpractices. Goebbels, the propaganda minister, insisted that those trials be published in detail in newspapers, thus parading lurid details about known ministers, priests, and nuns. Priests who warned parents against letting their children become part of the Hitler Youth were subject to blackmail. Thus Hitler silenced the mouths of those who would dare oppose him. Catholic priests, nuns, and church leaders were arrested on trumped-up charges, and religious publications were suppressed." Lutzer, Erwin W., Hitler's Cross, p114, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995)

On the Gramscian Marxist subversion of Faith:

http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b555c262d74.htm
38 posted on 01/13/2003 6:27:12 PM PST by Domestic Church (not to mention the ghost of Antonio Gramsci behind Hillary Clinton)
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To: Scupoli
There is nothing to debate you've zero facts, and alot of opinion.
39 posted on 01/13/2003 6:27:39 PM PST by Codie
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To: Scupoli
I disagreed with the article because it was too big a story for it to not have leaked out had it been true. Then I did a bit of research on CFN and realized that a lot of their information is dicey... lots of opinions and little back up. IMO, of course!

Padre Pio probably didn't have a lot of love for the NO. From what I've read, Fulton Sheen didn't either. Not a lot of us (on FR, anyway) do (because of the myriad of abuses of it). But Fulton Sheen (another obedient priest, I've read that Spellman put him through hell) said the NO Mass and did not try to supress it and keep the Tridentine.

Who knows? I just took a *bit* of offense at one of the first lines in the article -- "He never celebrated the Novus Ordo Missae." --- like what does that have to do with anything???

40 posted on 01/13/2003 7:05:51 PM PST by american colleen
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To: Domestic Church
Is Antonio Gramsci a prophet?
41 posted on 01/13/2003 7:08:03 PM PST by Codie
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To: Codie
He's a marxist (considered so dangerous Mussolini threw him in jail) and wrote extensively on undermining capitalist societies initially through the institutions of religion and education. Supposedly Hillary did her senior paper on him.
42 posted on 01/13/2003 7:28:07 PM PST by Domestic Church (not to mention the ghost of Antonio Gramsci behind Hillary Clinton)
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To: Scupoli
Great post, Scupoli, on a great, persecuted saint.
43 posted on 01/13/2003 7:55:57 PM PST by Land of the Irish
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Scupoli
Scupoli, thank you for the wonderful post. As for being on the receiving end of "I think your nuts" (not once, which would be understandable, but twice!! ), I congratulate you. Your opposition has spoken, and with what eloquence!!

As for myself, I think you're top shelf. Regards,

45 posted on 01/13/2003 9:26:01 PM PST by Grigeo
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To: Scupoli
The final year of this dying, decaying century will see the beatification of Padre Pio, the holy monk

Padre Pio was not a monk.

46 posted on 01/17/2003 1:08:22 PM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode
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To: Codie
I think your nuts.

I don't think you've done your homework. Italians are only now starting to become aware of the muslim menace in their own country. Italy currently has a negative birthrate. The muslims coming into the country have a very, very positive birthrate. Do the math. I read estimates that show Italians a minority in their own country within 50 years. The Dutch are already practically there.

Unless things change radically, much of Western Europe is in deep doo-doo.

If it makes you feel better, continue to believe this is nuts. That way, you'll be surprised when the sword of Islam comes to your town...
47 posted on 01/17/2003 1:26:27 PM PST by Antoninus
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To: Antoninus
I'm sorry I just don't agree with you.I don't feel Islam is a major threat.There are actually times when I'm more concerned about Protestant fundamentalism.
48 posted on 01/17/2003 2:36:50 PM PST by Codie
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode
You're going to have to elaborate here. I'm not sure where you are going with this.
49 posted on 01/17/2003 3:25:25 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: Antoninus
Italians are only now starting to become aware of the muslim menace in their own country.

Another interesting post about Italians...

POPE WOJTYLA'S "SWAN SONG"

"Pope Wojtyla's pontificate is coming to an end and as a result the influence of the Polish group in the Vatican leadership has notably weakened. Without waiting for John Paul II's death, the traditionally influential Italian group has been trying to get revenge for the almost 25 year long rule of the Polish pope. According to information obtained by NG, a purge of the ranks now is taking place in the Vatican, during which "Wojtyla's people" are quietly being removed from their positions.

The position of the Italian group, including that on matters of the foreign policy of the Vatican, is often at variance with the policy of the pope and his entourage. In the first place, this pertains to the Vatican's "eastern policy" and its relations with RPTs. In the dispute over the establishment in Russian of Catholic dioceses, Italian Catholics frequently have spoken out on the side of the Russian Orthodox church. In the past six months, several delegations from various Italian dioceses of the Roman Catholic church have visited the Moscow patriarchate and they have openly expressed support for the position of RPTs."

50 posted on 01/17/2003 3:57:52 PM PST by MarMema
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