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The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 10
The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

Posted on 02/19/2003 11:05:28 AM PST by ksen

The Institutes of the Christian Religion

Book I: The Knowledge of God the Creator

10. IN SCRIPTURE, THE TRUE GOD OPPOSED, EXCLUSIVELY, TO ALL THE GODS OF THE HEATHEN.

Sections.

1. Explanation of the knowledge of God resumed. God as manifested in Scripture, the same as delineated in his works.

2. The attributes of God as described by Moses, David, and Jeremiah. Explanation of the attributes. Summary. Uses of this knowledge.

3. Scripture, in directing us to the true God, excludes the gods of the heathen, who, however, in some sense, held the unity of God.

1. The Scriptural doctrine of God the Creator

We formerly observed that the knowledge of God, which, in other respects, is not obscurely exhibited in the frame of the world, and in all the creatures, is more clearly and familiarly explained by the word. It may now be proper to show, that in Scripture the Lord represents himself in the same character in which we have already seen that he is delineated in his works. A full discussion of this subject would occupy a large space. But it will here be sufficient to furnish a kind of index, by attending to which the pious reader may be enabled to understand what knowledge of God he ought chiefly to search for in Scripture, and be directed as to the mode of conducting the search. I am not now adverting to the peculiar covenant by which God distinguished the race of Abraham from the rest of the nations. For when by gratuitous adoption he admitted those who were enemies to the rank of sons, he even then acted in the character of a Redeemer. At present, however, we are employed in considering that knowledge which stops short at the creation of the world, without ascending to Christ the Mediator. But though it will soon be necessary to quote certain passages from the New Testament, (proofs being there given both of the power of God the Creator, and of his providence in the preservation of what he originally created,) I wish the reader to remember what my present purpose is, that he may not wander from the proper subject. Briefly, then, it will be sufficient for him at present to understand how God, the Creator of heaven and earth, governs the world which was made by him. In every part of Scripture we meet with descriptions of his paternal kindness and readiness to do good, and we also meet with examples of severity which show that he is the just punisher of the wicked, especially when they continue obstinate notwithstanding of all his forbearance.

2. The attributes of God according to Scripture agree with those known in his creatures

There are certain passages which contain more vivid descriptions of the divine character, setting it before us as if his genuine countenance were visibly portrayed. Moses, indeed, seems to have intended briefly to comprehend whatever may be known of God by man, when he said, "The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation," (Ex. 34: 6, 7.) Here we may observe, firsts that his eternity and selfexistence are declared by his magnificent name twice repeated; and, secondly, that in the enumeration of his perfections, he is described not as he is in himself, but in relation to us, in order that our acknowledgement of him may be more a vivid actual impression than empty visionary speculation. Moreover, the perfections thus enumerated are just those which we saw shining in the heavens, and on the earth - compassion, goodness, mercy, justice, judgement, and truth. For power and energy are comprehended under the name Elohim.

Similar epithets are employed by the prophets when they would fully declare his sacred name. Not to collect a great number of passages, it may suffice at present to refer to one Psalm, (145) in which a summary of the divine perfections is so carefully given that not one seems to have been omitted. Still, however, every perfection there set down may be contemplated in creation; and, hence, such as we feel him to be when experience is our guide, such he declares himself to be by his word. In Jeremiah, where God proclaims the character in which he would have us to acknowledge him, though the description is not so full, it is substantially the same. "Let him that glorieth," says he, "glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving-kindness, judgement, and righteousness, in the earth," (Jerem. 9: 24.) Assuredly, the attributes which it is most necessary for us to know are these three: Loving-kindness, on which alone our entire safety depends: Judgement, which is daily exercised on the wicked, and awaits them in a severer form, even for eternal destruction: Righteousness, by which the faithful are preserved, and most benignly cherished. The prophet declares, that when you understand these, you are amply furnished with the means of glorying in God. Nor is there here any omission of his truth, or power, or holiness, or goodness. For how could this knowledge of his loving-kindness, judgement, and righteousness, exist, if it were not founded on his inviolable truth? How, again, could it be believed that he governs the earth with judgement and righteousness, without presupposing his mighty power? Whence, too, his loving-kindness, but from his goodness? In fine, if all his ways are loving-kindness, judgement, and righteousness, his holiness also is thereby conspicuous.

Moreover, the knowledge of God, which is set before us in the Scriptures, is designed for the same purpose as that which shines in creation, viz., that we may thereby learn to worship him with perfect integrity of heart and unfeigned obedience, and also to depend entirely on his goodness.

3. Because the unity of God was also not unknown to the heathen, the worshipers of idols are the more inexcusable

Here it may be proper to give a summary of the general doctrine. First, then, let the reader observe that the Scripture, in order to direct us to the true God, distinctly excludes and rejects all the gods of the heathen, because religion was universally adulterated in almost every age. It is true, indeed, that the name of one God was everywhere known and celebrated. For those who worshipped a multitude of gods, whenever they spoke the genuine language of nature, simply used the name god, as if they had thought one god sufficient. And this is shrewdly noticed by Justin Martyr, who, to the same effect, wrote a treatise, entitled, On the Monarchy of God, in which he shows, by a great variety of evidence, that the unity of God is engraven on the hearts of all. Tertullian also proves the same thing from the common forms of speech. But as all, without exception, have in the vanity of their minds rushed or been dragged into lying fictions, these impressions, as to the unity of God, whatever they may have naturally been, have had no further effect than to render men inexcusable. The wisest plainly discover the vague wanderings of their minds when they express a wish for any kind of Deity, and thus offer up their prayers to unknown gods. And then, in imagining a manifold nature in God, though their ideas concerning Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, Minerva, and others, were not so absurd as those of the rude vulgar, they were by no means free from the delusions of the devil. We have elsewhere observed, that however subtle the evasions devised by philosophers, they cannot do away with the charge of rebellion, in that all of them have corrupted the truth of God. For this reason, Habakkuk, (2: 20,) after condemning all idols, orders men to seek God in his temple, that the faithful may acknowledge none but Him, who has manifested himself in his word.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Theology
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BOOK 1:
Chapter 1 - THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND OF OURSELVES MUTUALLY CONNECTED. - NATURE OF THIS CONNECTION.
Chapter 2 - WHAT IT IS TO KNOW GOD,--TENDENCY OF THIS KNOWLEDGE.
Chapter 3 - THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD HAS BEEN NATURALLY IMPLANTED IN THE HUMAN MIND.
Chapter 4 - THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD STIFLED OR CORRUPTED, IGNORANTLY OR MALICIOUSLY.
Chapter 5 - THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD CONSPICUOUS IN THE CREATION, AND CONTINUAL GOVERNMENT OF THE WORLD.
Chapter 6: THE NEED OF SCRIPTURE, AS A GUIDE AND TEACHER, IN COMING TO GOD AS CREATOR.
Chapter 7: THE TESTIMONY OF THE SPIRIT NECESSARY TO GIVE FULL AUTHORITY TO SCRIPTURE. THE IMPIETY OF PRETENDING THAT THE CREDIBILITY OF SCRIPTURE DEPENDS ON THE JUDGEMENT OF THE CHURCH.
Chapter 8. THE CREDIBILITY OF SCRIPTURE SUFFICIENTLY PROVED IN SO FAR AS NATURAL REASON ADMITS.
9. ALL THE PRINCIPLES OF PIETY SUBVERTED BY FANATICS, WHO SUBSTITUTE REVELEVATIONS FOR SCRIPTURE.
1 posted on 02/19/2003 11:05:28 AM PST by ksen
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To: RnMomof7; Corin Stormhands; Jean Chauvin; Penny1; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; CCWoody; Wrigley
Here is chapter 10. Are we getting burned out yet?
2 posted on 02/19/2003 11:08:23 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
Bookmarked. Not burned out. But waaaaaaaaay behind...
3 posted on 02/19/2003 11:11:20 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (HHD)
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To: ksen
bookmarked, but probably a bad time for this, Maybe later this evening? Everybody seems to be tied up right now, sorry.
4 posted on 02/19/2003 11:31:35 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Once more dear friends into the breach, Once more~)
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To: ksen; LiteKeeper; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; JesseShurun; ...
Not burned out..but feeling the lack of completion..

Ping))))))))))

5 posted on 02/19/2003 12:06:40 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Not burned out..but feeling the lack of completion..

About what? Chapter 9? The whole series?

6 posted on 02/19/2003 12:09:34 PM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
I always feel things are kind of hanging....but I guess that is to be expected..
7 posted on 02/19/2003 12:13:50 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I always feel things are kind of hanging....

Hmmmm, I'll go back to chapter 9 and see what I haven't addressed there yet. Because you're right, we should try to have each chapter wrapped up as much as we can.

8 posted on 02/19/2003 12:32:07 PM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; JesseShurun; gdebrae; ...
The wisest plainly discover the vague wanderings of their minds when they express a wish for any kind of Deity, and thus offer up their prayers to unknown gods. And then, in imagining a manifold nature in God, though their ideas concerning Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, Minerva, and others, were not so absurd as those of the rude vulgar, they were by no means free from the delusions of the devil. We have elsewhere observed, that however subtle the evasions devised by philosophers, they cannot do away with the charge of rebellion, in that all of them have corrupted the truth of God. For this reason, Habakkuk, (2: 20,) after condemning all idols, orders men to seek God in his temple, that the faithful may acknowledge none but Him, who has manifested himself in his word.

Some things never change. I believe that the desire for man to build a god of his own preference is a result of the fall. Adam and Eve desired to be their own gods, Cain desired to set the rules for sacrifice..From the earlist of time man has not wanted a relationship with the real God..

9 posted on 02/20/2003 7:13:49 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: ksen
"Are we getting burned out yet?"

Can you say work? Kind of busy right now.

10 posted on 02/20/2003 8:09:15 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
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To: RnMomof7
Adam and Eve desired to be their own gods, Cain desired to set the rules for sacrifice..From the earlist of time man has not wanted a relationship with the real God..

Did they want to be their own gods and throw off, what they may have perceived as, God's yoke? Or did they want to be LIKE God so they could, they thought, be that much closer to Him?

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

11 posted on 02/20/2003 8:21:37 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
Did they want to be their own gods and throw off, what they may have perceived as, God's yoke? Or did they want to be LIKE God so they could, they thought, be that much closer to Him?

Is it anywhere indicated that they wanted a 'closer" relationship with God? Their response to the sin was to hide from God.

How does God view those that seek equality with God?

Act 12:22   And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man.

     Act 12:23   And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost

12 posted on 02/20/2003 11:13:20 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I agree that their response AFTER the sin was to hide from God. But what motivated them to sin in the first place? Not being satisfied with the place God had placed them in? Was Satan using the love they felt towards God as the lever to get them to sin? "Hey, if you eat this fruit will be just like God!"

I admit these are just speculations on my part. The bottom line was they ate the fruit and their relationship with God was broken.

.......That actually makes a bit of sense. Adam & Eve desired a closer relationship with God. Satan offered them a way to become as God, which appealed to Adam & Eve. So they took of the fruit and instead of becoming closer to God, they became alienated from Him. < /ramble >

When was the first sin commited? With the physical act of eating the forbidden fruit?
13 posted on 02/20/2003 11:40:17 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
Actually it makes more sense that they were seeking equality with God not seeking a nearness..

How does one hope to "get closer" to someone by a direct definance of their law?

  Rom 1:20   For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
  
  Rom 1:21   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
  
***  Rom 1:22   Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, **
  
  Rom 1:23   And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
  
  Rom 1:24   Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
  
  Rom 1:25  *** Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. ***
14 posted on 02/20/2003 12:15:52 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
How does one hope to "get closer" to someone by a direct definance of their law?

By being convinced by someone who is "more subtle than any beast of the field."

15 posted on 02/20/2003 12:21:26 PM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
But he did not tell them that this would make them more loved or closer to God..but rather they would be LIKE gods..

Rom 1:32  *** Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death**, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

(   Gen 3:3   But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,** neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.**)


Man carries that mark

Eze 28:2   Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

16 posted on 02/20/2003 1:08:42 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I'm not going to the mat on a speculation on my part so I'll drop it.

I had always thought that the guy referred to in Ez 28:2 was the Anti-Christ. Is that your impression?
17 posted on 02/20/2003 1:25:14 PM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
It is not an important point (the why of the fall) ..What is important is the result. I just do not see any indication that it was to be closer to God,and I do see lots of folks today that still want to be a god...the sin of Pride..Lust of the eyes and lust of the flesh and the pride of life...caused the fall IMO.....

I'm not going to the mat on a speculation on my part so I'll drop it.

(just do not preach a sermon on it OK ? :>)))))

How did we get on this anyway? I will go back and reread it tomorrow and see if there is more to say on this chapter.

18 posted on 02/20/2003 5:31:26 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Wrigley; Corin Stormhands; Penny1
I am not now adverting to the peculiar covenant by which God distinguished the race of Abraham from the rest of the nations.

I'm FINALLY getting around to actually reading this chapter.

Would Calvin be considered a Covenant Theologian? IOW, would Calvin preach that Israel has been set aside and that the Church is now the inheritor of all the promises?

19 posted on 03/06/2003 9:50:00 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: RnMomof7
Well, all in all this chapter just seems to be a recap of the previous 9. Calvin reiterates that God is known by His Creation, and God is more perfetly known through the witness of the Spirit in the Scriptures.
20 posted on 03/06/2003 10:23:27 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
Would Calvin be considered a Covenant Theologian? IOW, would Calvin preach that Israel has been set aside and that the Church is now the inheritor of all the promises?

Hey, good to get back to this! There is a basic misunderstanding on what Covenant Theologians believe, and that prompts your question. My default answer is to reject the premise: Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews. The Reformers have taught that the identity of Israel, hence the promises to Israel, will be fulfilled by the Church. This understanding comes from Paul in the Romans letter. "All Israel is not Israel". It does NOT follow that God does not deal with the Jews. Evidence of this is individual Jewish Converts. It simply means that The Gentiles and the Jews who encompass the church have replaced the national entity of Israel. So, yes, Calvin is a Covenant Theologian.

21 posted on 03/06/2003 4:55:02 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: dark_lord; ksen; LiteKeeper; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; ...
First of all Kevin you need to know (or perhaps you do know) that all Calvinists are not "Covenant Theology " believers . It is not NECESSARY to hold the Covenant Theology view to be a Calvinist or an A mil believer..

A question to DCL..Is unregenerate Israel still part of the original covenant or did the New Covenant "disown " them

I have read on this forum that some Arminians even believe that Israel may have a different means of salvation ....highly unscripitual IMHO..

Kevin thanks for the bump back on this..I have decided to cut my FR time..but it is nice to have something to read when I do show up:>)

This is a Institutes 10 clean up flag

22 posted on 03/07/2003 11:31:55 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
First of all Kevin you need to know (or perhaps you do know) that all Calvinists are not "Covenant Theology " believers . It is not NECESSARY to hold the Covenant Theology view to be a Calvinist or an A mil believer..

No, I didn't know that. I always thought that Calvinism and Covenant Theology went hand in hand. Thanks for the heads up though. ;^)

I have read on this forum that some Arminians even believe that Israel may have a different means of salvation ....highly unscripitual IMHO..

I've read that too, I agree with your assessment.

Kevin thanks for the bump back on this..I have decided to cut my FR time..but it is nice to have something to read when I do show up:>)

You're welcome Mom. I've got a bit of spare time now so I think I'll go get chapter 11 and post it.

23 posted on 03/07/2003 11:41:24 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Thanks for your answer CDL.
24 posted on 03/07/2003 11:42:59 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: RnMomof7
35 ¶ Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

- Jer. 31:35-37 [NASB]

God will never cast off Israel, whom He foreknew.

It's a huge mistake to confuse the spiritual Israel with those who are Israel after the flesh -- one which too many dispensationalists do. But it's an equally big mistake to confuse the church with Israel -- one which the amils often make.

25 posted on 03/07/2003 12:26:09 PM PST by jude24
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To: jude24
It's a huge mistake to confuse the spiritual Israel with those who are Israel after the flesh -- one which too many dispensationalists do. But it's an equally big mistake to confuse the church with Israel -- one which the amils often make.

Clarify please

26 posted on 03/07/2003 12:32:32 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; RochesterFan
Dispensationalists often, mistakenly so, confuse the political entity of Israel with that which is spiritual. "Spiritual Israel" is those elected by God's sovereign grace to believe in His Son.

The problem is that amils seem to equate "spiritual Israel" with the church, which just doesn't compute. Else, why this?

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Rom. 11:24-29 [NASB]

Now, the Israel here is clearly not the church (notice v. 28-- they're enemies to the Gospel at this present time, yet elect!). The only conclusion I can come to, therefore, is that the church and Israel are as yet distinct.

There will come a time when all Israel will be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I still don't know how the eschatology of that works out, but this is what I do know.

27 posted on 03/07/2003 1:20:04 PM PST by jude24
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To: RnMomof7; ksen
Sorry i'm late to the Party mom, tough day at work, but a productive one.

A question to DCL..Is unregenerate Israel still part of the original covenant or did the New Covenant "disown " them

Unregenerate "Israel" was already under condemnation, the same as unregenerate Gentiles. Let's not loose our perspective.

i do happen to be one of those who believe that the church IS Israel. It is the Israel of the Promise, and consists of Gentile and Jewish believers throughout all history.

If that bothers you, shoot me.

28 posted on 03/07/2003 3:58:43 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; RnMomof7; xzins; the_doc; a_Turk
Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews.... It does NOT follow that God does not deal with the Jews. Evidence of this is individual Jewish Converts.

This is an absolutely beautiful argument, CDL. I wish I'd thought of it (and be assured that I shall now plagiarize it).

It certainly gives the Lie to any "dispensationalist" claims that Covenant Theology is "anti-Semitic".

This is particularly re-assuring to me, because I have always maintained... I am a Zionist. I don't have any moral objection to that Label. I wear it freely. OP = Zionist; Zionist = OP.

What I am not, at least any more, is a Dispensationalist Zionist. I do not presume that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

It is my belief that God has a better plan entirely for the Jews. "All Israel shall be Saved". I believe this on the basis of of the Salvationist promises of Romans 11, not an idolatrous and therefore Materialist worship of modern Socialist Israel.

Unlike the Dispensationalist Zionists, my support of Modern Israel is in no way whatsoever founded upon the (anti-Christian) belief that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People. Modern Israel may be incorporated into God's Plan for the Salvation of the Jews (at least if the "Jews for Jesus" have anything to say about it, provided that the Orthodox Jews of Israel do not OUTLAW their Evangelism), but Modern Israel does not represent the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

Rather, my Zionism is a political Zionism. I believe that Contracts are Binding, and that Men should Honor their Word. A Bargain was struck in 1917 between the Zionists and the Arab Nationalists -- the Turkish Empire would be destroyed, both the Zionists and the Arab Nationalists would support Great Britain in her War against the Turks.

In return for Zionist and the Arab Nationalist support ("Lawrence of Arabia", y'all?), it was agreed that 99% of the Turkish Middle East would be given over to Arab Nationalist regimes, and 1% of the Turkish Middle East ("Jewish Palestine", from the Mediterranean to the River Jordan -- including the so-called "West Bank") would be given over to the Zionists as a "Jewish National Homeland".

As such, I am sorry to have to tell the Palestinian Arabs to go "piss up a rope", and since I am not a Dispensationalist Zionist, I have the Theological Honesty to criticize Modern Israel for her human-rights violations against the Palestinian Arabs for what they are -- human rights violations, whether the Israel uber alles Dispensationalist Zionists want to admit it or not.

But at the same time, if the Representative Principle means anything, I am prepared to advise the Palestinian Arabs, get with the program -- your Muslim Arabic brethren agreed to accept 99% of the Turkish Middle East as the price of their support for gutting the Turkish Empire, and they agreed to cede 1% of the Turkish Middle East to the Jews as the price of Zionist support for gutting the Turkish Empire.

Either you agree to become peaceful, productive citizens of Zionist Israel (Israeli Arabs enjoy fundamental Constitutional rights), or you agree at least to non-violent protest of your situation... or you move. Your Muslim Arab brethren control 99% of the Middle East, and that is your alloted portion. Contracts are Binding, and Men should Honor their Word.

The funny thing is, even Turkey seems to understand this. Israel has few better allies in the Middle East than the Kemal-Ataturkized Nation of Turkey (Turkey -- from whom the land was stolen -- which is a crying shame; A Turkish Middle East would be far easier to deal with, and if unruly Arabs must be managed, I think it was a better world when the Turks spent their own Blood trying to manage them, then if America must expend her own Blood).

But despite giving their Word, at the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the 1921 Paris Peace Agreements, the Arab Nationalists and the Palestinians still can't seem to get with the program (even when Turkey, CAN).

And so...
I AM A Covenant Theologian.
But at the same time, I AM A Zionist.

(Whether the Dispensationalists can accept that or not)

29 posted on 03/07/2003 10:37:12 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; RnMomof7; ksen
i do happen to be one of those who believe that the church IS Israel. It is the Israel of the Promise, and consists of Gentile and Jewish believers throughout all history. If that bothers you, shoot me.


30 posted on 03/07/2003 10:55:13 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
It certainly gives the Lie to any "dispensationalist" claims that Covenant Theology is "anti-Semitic".

OP, it would be inappropriate to accuse covenant theology of being anti-semitic. It is only possible to accuse individuals of being anti-semitic. In this world, past and present, there have been a variety of folks who have dehumanized Jews. This was true even before Jesus, so there's a deeper problem there than just the satanic claim that they are "Christ-killers."

The most prominent haters of Jews have been politically persuaded. Nazism used racism as one of its means to acquire and maintain power and to justify expansionism. Stalinism simply extended czarist pogromism to violate racial groups....especially Jews.

Covenant Theology is an EASIER vehicle for advocating anti-semitism because it does displace Israel. With Israel intentionally being set aside by the theology, it is easier for unscrupulous or unbalanced individuals to abuse that idea into an anti-semitic position.

Dispensationalism, as I understand it, could ALSO be abused. In it, Israel has been "set aside" for an indeterminate period of time. I can see an an anti-semitic position being built from that perspective were an unscrupulous person to abuse it. (After all, people DO follow Binny Hinn, and did follow Jim Jones, Joe Smith, etc.)

Dispensationalism simply has never been in a position of political influence as has covenant theology. CT, in terms of being an articulated position, is older, was the position of the Reformation, and found its way by that into governmental circles. Luther did not help with his conversion to a thorough-going Jew hater late in life. His writings in that period did serious damage, and they are an area of his theology that need to be repudidated by every generation of Lutherans.

31 posted on 03/08/2003 4:17:20 AM PST by xzins (Babylon, you have been weighed in the balance and been found wanting!)
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To: jude24
I agree with you that the Jews are still God's favored people. I also agree with you that all the so called prophecies about 1948 Israel are false. In essence, the Jews are still in exile spiritually. However, the Church is Israel since we gentiles have been grafted in. In the fullness of time when the Jews repent then shall the end come.

The dispensationalists incorporate too much discontinuity between the covenants. God's plan has always been a kingdom here on earth of covenant believing people. While the terms of the covenant has changed because his people were unfaithful to their obligations the plan of the covenant has not changed. God's plan here on earth was for his image (humans) to be multiplied throughout the earth and that those images would take dominion over the earth. God worked his plan through his favored nation until they became so unfaithful that he grafted in the gentiles. I believe, however, that God is waiting for his favored people to repent and complete multiplication of his image and dominion over the earth is accomplished and then the end will come.
32 posted on 03/08/2003 6:26:08 AM PST by lockeliberty
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To: jude24; lockeliberty
I have looked on it that all that are Israel are not Israel..(spiritual) and so we are grafted into the spiritual Israel..BUT the political Israel will remain untill the end..
33 posted on 03/08/2003 10:24:03 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Would you agree with my 33 ?
34 posted on 03/08/2003 10:25:25 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jean Chauvin; lockeliberty
While i do not wish to go into it in a public forum at this time, i believe that Political Israel passed away.

My views on this subject are far too controversial, though not at all anti-Semitic, and i wish to waste no time in attempting to defend a matter that is not an essential to me, and has little immediate importance to me.

35 posted on 03/08/2003 11:34:40 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
It seemed you were speaking of a national (ethnic identity) in a later post did I misread you?
36 posted on 03/08/2003 11:46:54 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; jude24
Not certain that i said anything of the sort. Are you certain that you didn't confuse my post(s) with something similar that Jude24 posted?

i do not hold to the view that the present "State of Israel" has any particular prophetic significance.

i'm not quite certain of what you are referring to mom, could you ping me to it?

37 posted on 03/08/2003 11:55:40 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews. The Reformers have taught that the identity of Israel, hence the promises to Israel, will be fulfilled by the Church.

Seeing that there remains a "Nation of Israel" ..I thought you were seperating the national from the spiritual

38 posted on 03/08/2003 11:59:55 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
"Set aside" was undoubtably a poor choice of words on my part. My apologies for the misunderstanding. i hold that the National identity of Israel has passed away, and that the promises are to the Church that encomapses both Jew and Gentile.

BTW, it is quite obvious that as a culture the Jews are still with us. Whether or not this holds any prophetic significance i cannot determine, though i lean away from such an idea.

39 posted on 03/08/2003 12:10:03 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: RnMomof7
I have looked on it that all that are Israel are not Israel..(spiritual) and so we are grafted into the spiritual Israel..BUT the political Israel will remain untill the end..

I don't distiniguish between a spirtual and political Church. The Church's importance is both spiritual and political. Therefore, I don't distinguish between a spiritual and political Israel. Since, after Israel repents, there will be no distinction between Jew or Gentile in the Church there will be no need to distinguish any political differences. It is not a national Israel that we look forward to but an international Church that includes the Jewish people. Further, I would add that geography is important too.

40 posted on 03/09/2003 12:46:50 AM PST by lockeliberty
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
My views on this subject are far too controversial, though not at all anti-Semitic, and i wish to waste no time in attempting to defend a matter that is not an essential to me, and has little immediate importance to me.

I wonder if you would agree with me that ones views are immediately eschatological and thus effects ones hermeneutics?

41 posted on 03/09/2003 1:02:04 AM PST by lockeliberty
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To: lockeliberty
I wonder if you would agree with me that ones views are immediately eschatological and thus effects ones hermeneutics?

Generally speaking, yes, i would agree, and suspect that we both could come up with speciic examples here at FR.

My own particular controversy is primarily an in-house matter among members of the Reformed Faith, and not likely to disturb doctrinal issues within that Faith. i simply do not wish to debate this controversy, when it would distract from discussion of the Institutes.

42 posted on 03/09/2003 4:42:48 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: lockeliberty
I wonder if we are talking past each other??? The Jews still exist as a distinct people..(my meaning of a political group) And some of that group also belong to Israel..
43 posted on 03/09/2003 5:51:08 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; ksen; ponyespresso
Understood.

Let me bring some opinions about the subject of these threads. I question the approach to understanding Calvin's theology in this way. Calvin's theology is a systematic approach to theology and to understand him is to understand all that he says as a whole. What is being done here is deconstructing each of Calvin's premises on their own merit apart from the system as a whole.

This is a problem, as I see it, with American evangelicals. We tend to chop up the Bible into pieces without trying to understand the overall picture. I understand it would probably be impractical to ask everyone to read the entire Institutes and then go back and anaylize the premises but that would be the most appropriate approach, IMHO.

44 posted on 03/09/2003 3:07:14 PM PST by lockeliberty
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To: RnMomof7
I wonder if we are talking past each other??

Probably so. Terms such as "political" connote large meanings.

45 posted on 03/09/2003 3:11:23 PM PST by lockeliberty
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; drstevej
I do not presume that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

There are no Dispensationalists who say that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. There are a bunch who say that this is the beginning of the fulfillment, but not the fulfillment itself.

46 posted on 03/10/2003 5:32:46 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I believe that Contracts are Binding....

What about this Contract?

Gen 17:
[8] And I[God] will give unto thee[Abraham], and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

47 posted on 03/10/2003 5:39:25 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: lockeliberty
I question the approach to understanding Calvin's theology in this way. Calvin's theology is a systematic approach to theology and to understand him is to understand all that he says as a whole. What is being done here is deconstructing each of Calvin's premises on their own merit apart from the system as a whole.

What other approach would you suggest?

I've never read the entire Institutes so I need to read them. I don't know any other way to read something than chapter by chapter. So I might as well read them with you folk, that way those who know them can help with the understanding of them.

48 posted on 03/10/2003 5:46:06 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
***There are no Dispensationalists who say that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. There are a bunch who say that this is the beginning of the fulfillment, but not the fulfillment itself. ***

Ezekiel 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’" 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’"

 

BLUE = Present - Israel is assembled back in the land in spiritual death and dryness. There is a gathered and re-assembled body with flesh but no life.

RED = Future - The tribulation (Day of Jacob's trouble) brings the nation to repentance and readiness to receive her Messiah.

49 posted on 03/10/2003 5:51:02 AM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Thanks drstevej.
50 posted on 03/10/2003 6:28:50 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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