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Catechism of the Catholic Church Requires Civil Penalties for Abortion
American Life League ^ | Feb 21, 2003 | Judy Brown

Posted on 02/21/2003 9:11:54 AM PST by Maximilian

ABORTION

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2322
From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice, gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

2271
Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.

Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.

Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272
Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.

"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.

The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.

Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273
The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.

These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.

Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.

The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.

When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined.

As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights.

2274
Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual....

It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."

2275
"One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities.

Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity" which are unique and unrepeatable.

Also see:

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS AND ABORTION:
Extensively detailed research about Christianity and the sanctity of life.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abrotion; catholiclist; crime; law; northdakota
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1 posted on 02/21/2003 9:11:54 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: Diago; narses; Loyalist; BlackElk; american colleen; saradippity; Polycarp; Dajjal; ...
Judie Brown, President of the American Life League, has been disturbed by the cowardice of the North Dakota bishops who came out AGAINST a bill recently introduced into the state legislature to outlaw abortion. She has posted on her website these excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to demonstrate how specious were the arguments that the bishops used against the law. These quotations show that the bishops'position was directly contrary to the teaching of the Catechism.
2 posted on 02/21/2003 9:19:26 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
Judie is one of my heroes.
3 posted on 02/21/2003 9:21:22 AM PST by Siobhan († Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet †)
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To: Maximilian
BTTT!
4 posted on 02/21/2003 9:22:14 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Maximilian; Siobhan
A reflection on one of the readings from yesterday:

One Bread, One Body

One Bread, One Body


<< Thursday, February 20, 2003 >>
 
Genesis 9:1-13 Psalm 102 Mark 8:27-33
View Readings
 
GOD’S FIRST WORDS TO US
 
“God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: ‘Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.’ ” —Genesis 9:1
 

One of the first things God said to Noah after the flood was the first thing He said to the human race after creating us: “Be fertile and multiply” (Gn 1:28). God concluded His blessing of Noah with the words: “Be fertile, then, and multiply” (Gn 9:7; see also Gn 1:22).

The Lord has made it very clear that children are a blessing from Him (see Ps 127:3) and should be welcomed (see Mt 18:5). In the new covenant, however, the Lord wants us to multiply not only people but also people who are His disciples (see Mt 28:19). He insists that we bear abundantly the fruit of evangelization, or we will be “like a withered, rejected branch, picked up to be thrown in the fire and burnt” (Jn 15:6).

Naturally, the Lord wants human beings to be created within the marriage covenant through sexual relations and brought to birth through the mother’s suffering in pregnancy and delivery. Supernaturally, the Lord makes us new creations (see Gal 6:15) and gives us new birth (see Jn 3:3, 5) by our covenant relationship with Jesus (see Jn 15:5) and our suffering for love of Him.

Don’t be abortifacient or contraceptive. Choose love and life-giving pain. Choose life and be fruitful.

 
Prayer: Father make me faithful, fruitful, and pleasing to You.
Promise: “The nations shall revere Your name, O Lord, and all the kings of the earth Your glory.” —Ps 102:16
Praise: Although enduring more than one miscarriage, Sandra continues to choose to follow God’s call to love and openness to life.
 

5 posted on 02/21/2003 9:25:34 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
PRO-LIFE BUMP....Bad Catholic that I am.
6 posted on 02/21/2003 9:28:21 AM PST by Alkhin (He thinks I need keeping in order.)
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To: Salvation
Excellent, Salvation. God bless you.
7 posted on 02/21/2003 9:28:22 AM PST by Siobhan († Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet †)
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To: Alkhin
Thanks for the bump.

**Bad Catholic that I am.**

Isn't that what forgiveness is about?
8 posted on 02/21/2003 10:05:36 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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It is my understanding that a "mere" priest cannot forgive the sin of abortion. One has to go to a bishop for forgiveness.

Can anyone confirm this?
9 posted on 02/21/2003 10:05:57 AM PST by It's me
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To: Maximilian
Interesting point. Thanks.
10 posted on 02/21/2003 10:33:21 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: It's me
You can confess the sin of abortion to and receive absolution from any priest. The 1983 code of canon law no longer classifies it as a reserved sin, that is, one only the bishop can absolve.
11 posted on 02/21/2003 10:37:28 AM PST by ThomasMore ([1 Pet 3:15-16])
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To: It's me
It is my understanding that a "mere" priest cannot forgive the sin of abortion. One has to go to a bishop for forgiveness.

From Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

12 posted on 02/21/2003 11:19:42 AM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
WHy doth this one venture to threads to comment on subjects about which he/she knows nothing?
13 posted on 02/21/2003 11:22:42 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: ThomasMore
You can confess the sin of abortion to and receive absolution from any priest. The 1983 code of canon law no longer classifies it as a reserved sin, that is, one only the bishop can absolve.

LOL!

Christ spent His entire earthly ministry opposing the legalism of the Jewish religion. The Jews had nothing on Catholic legalism.

14 posted on 02/21/2003 11:34:20 AM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Desdemona
WHy doth this one venture to threads to comment on subjects about which he/she knows nothing?

My comment came directly, word for word, from the book of Mark. Not a single syllable of my own invention! Are you claiming that St. Mark knows nothing about forgiveness of sins?

15 posted on 02/21/2003 11:39:00 AM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
No. I am claiming you do not know the sacrament of Reconciliation, where the priest stands in Christ's place, as one of His successors to hear sins confessed.
16 posted on 02/21/2003 11:40:56 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Onelifetogive
And if that's not quite right, about the priest standing in Christ's stead, someone with better Catechesis than me will correct it.
17 posted on 02/21/2003 11:42:15 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Maximilian
You post this article, and date it as if it’s a recent post to the ALL website, and act as if its in response to the acts of the ND Bishops. You even make the claim:
She has posted on her website these excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to demonstrate how specious were the arguments that the bishops used against the law.
That is false. This article was posted at least as of May 31, 2000, which was over 2 ½ years ago. You stop at nothing to slam these Bishops. Did Bishop Zipfel get under your thin SSPX skin by calling the SSPX schismatic, referring to Archbishop Lefebvre as excommunicated, and making it clear to Catholics in his diocese that the local SSPX parish did not enjoy communion with the Roman Catholic Church?

Perhaps it was his ignoring the SSPX demand that he “Halt the celebration of the New Mass” that gets to Traditionalists?

Who knows. However, I do note that you repeatedly characterize Ms. Brown as being “disturbed by the cowardice of the North Dakota bishops.” In addition to your claim that these catechism sections are new, are you her spokesman or something now? If not, can you show me where she says something of this sort, or are you just putting words in her mouth?

Yes, she disagrees with the Bishops on this, but I hardly think she agrees with you, and posting two year old materials from her website, lying about their date, and putting words in her mouth hardly helps your case.

You are fond of making bogus claims about non-schismatic Catholics, like your previous claim on this issue that “not even Catholic bishops truly support the right to life,” a claim so thoroughly proven false that you couldn’t even respond last time, and just like your claim that “The default state today for virtually all Catholics is to be living objectively in a state of mortal sin” something you still have yet to justify.

I’m sure you consider me to be in mortal sin merely for responding to you again. Regardless, your agenda is transparent, and your efforts are disingenuous.

patent  +AMDG

18 posted on 02/21/2003 11:49:53 AM PST by patent
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To: Desdemona
No. I am claiming you do not know the sacrament of Reconciliation, where the priest stands in Christ's place, as one of His successors to hear sins confessed.

I would agree. That one baffles both me and St. Mark.

19 posted on 02/21/2003 11:51:28 AM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
WHy doth this one venture to threads to comment on subjects about which he/she knows nothing?
My comment came directly, word for word, from the book of Mark. Not a single syllable of my own invention! Are you claiming that St. Mark knows nothing about forgiveness of sins?
LOL. The quote you made isn’t Jesus speaking, or even St. Mark, it’s the scribes. It was put in their to demonstrate thier foolishness, yet you quote it as wisdom. You apparently think one should quote the scribes as a source of theology. The full citation:
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

So, Onelifetogive, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? We Catholics will stick with Jesus.

patent  +AMDG

20 posted on 02/21/2003 11:54:46 AM PST by patent
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To: patent
It was put in their (sic) to demonstrate thier (sic) foolishness

I agree! Their foolishness was in not realizing that Jesus was God!

21 posted on 02/21/2003 12:05:10 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
Yeah, yeah, yeah....
22 posted on 02/21/2003 12:14:25 PM PST by It's me
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To: Desdemona; Onelifetogive
John 20:21-23


21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me,
even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye
the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye
retain, they are retained.
23 posted on 02/21/2003 12:22:54 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: Desdemona
No. I am claiming you do not know the sacrament of Reconciliation, where the priest stands in Christ's place, as one of His successors to hear sins confessed.

Peter didn't know about that sacrement either: In Acts 8, he was presented with a perfect opportunity to forgive a guy's sin and assign the guy a few Rosaries and Our Fathers. He DIDN'T do anything like that.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

24 posted on 02/21/2003 12:23:00 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
You didn't pay attention when patent answered you, did you.
25 posted on 02/21/2003 12:23:58 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Onelifetogive; patent
I'm not sure why you're laughing? You quote a scribe and neglect to hear the words of the Lord.

"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." [John 20:19-23]

Also, see patent's post #20.

26 posted on 02/21/2003 12:28:16 PM PST by ThomasMore ([1 Pet 3:15-16])
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To: Desdemona; Onelifetogive
Here's the whole passage, which looks a bit different:

Acts 8:17-24

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost
was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive
the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought
that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of
God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of
thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these
things which ye have spoken come upon me.
27 posted on 02/21/2003 12:28:23 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: ArrogantBustard
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus said this to the disciples. (Not just to the Apostles.) The disciples were ALL of His followers. ALL Christians. Can All Christians forgive each other's sins against God? Why does the Catholic Church use this verse to justify only "priests" having the power of forgiveness.

28 posted on 02/21/2003 12:28:32 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: ThomasMore
Twice, now, he has quoted partial passages from Scripture, and distorted the meaning thereof.
29 posted on 02/21/2003 12:29:20 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: Onelifetogive
All of them? Locked up in a single room? Hardly...
30 posted on 02/21/2003 12:31:30 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: Onelifetogive
Please answer #20.

Thank you.
31 posted on 02/21/2003 12:33:12 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: ArrogantBustard
Here's the whole passage, which looks a bit different

What is the difference???

I get my direction from Simon Peter - "Pray God", your direction is from Simon the sorcerer "Pray ye the Lord for me."

32 posted on 02/21/2003 12:34:50 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: ArrogantBustard
Please answer #20.

I did. See 21.

33 posted on 02/21/2003 12:37:36 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
Simon Magus was not repentant. Peter told him to pray for the Grace of repentance. Simon Magus asked Peter to pray for that Grace (to be given to SM) as well. Both actions are presented as correct. I get my direction from the whole story; you ignore half of it.

The whole business is irrelevant to confession and the power to forgive sins, granted in John 20.
34 posted on 02/21/2003 12:39:10 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: ArrogantBustard
...and the power to forgive sins, granted in John 20.

The "power" granted in John 20 was, clearly, granted to the "disciples." The disciples were ALL Christians.

35 posted on 02/21/2003 1:03:22 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
I'm not going to be around--just surfing--but had to comment. So, are you saying that all disciples--meaning you and me--get to retain sin? You aren't making any sense.
36 posted on 02/21/2003 1:14:38 PM PST by attagirl (bah humbug)
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To: Maximilian
Sons of Satan, these bishops.
37 posted on 02/21/2003 1:23:05 PM PST by pray4liberty
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To: attagirl
So, are you saying that all disciples--meaning you and me--get to retain sin? You aren't making any sense.

I did't say it. Christ said it. We have to study under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand it.

38 posted on 02/21/2003 1:33:08 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
It was put in their (sic) to demonstrate thier (sic) foolishness
I agree! Their foolishness was in not realizing that Jesus was God!
Their foolishness then only demonstrates your foolishness today in quoting them. The only response you make to my post is to nitpick the spelling? Again, why do you quote the scribes in defense of your doctrine?

Why do you falsely claim St. Mark said these things, when it was really the scribes?

These things should give you pause; instead you just mock spelling errors. The irony of the situation is that you accuse us of being legalistic.

patent  +AMDG

39 posted on 02/21/2003 1:38:58 PM PST by patent
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To: patent
The only response you make to my post is to nitpick the spelling?

Untrue.

My response was that the Scribes knew that "only God could forgive sins", but could not understand that Jesus was God.

The normal Catholic response is that "only God can forgive sins, but God does it through a priest."

That is why I posted the incident from Acts where Peter refered Simon the Sorcerer directly to God for forgiveness. Simon them asked Peter to pray for him. Christians, like Peter, pray for each other all the time. There is not any indication that Peter gave Simon absolution, or assigned him the Rosary, or any number of Our Fathers to say.

40 posted on 02/21/2003 2:11:52 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
The only response you make to my post is to nitpick the spelling?
Untrue.
Well, actually it was true, as you didn’t say any of the stuff you say now, including:
My response was that the Scribes knew that "only God could forgive sins", but could not understand that Jesus was God.
Again, you take your theology from Scribes. Good for you.
The normal Catholic response is that "only God can forgive sins, but God does it through a priest."

That is why I posted the incident from Acts where Peter refered Simon the Sorcerer directly to God for forgiveness. Simon them asked Peter to pray for him. Christians, like Peter, pray for each other all the time. There is not any indication that Peter gave Simon absolution, or assigned him the Rosary, or any number of Our Fathers to say.

Of course not. Simon wasn’t repentant, and he was trying to buy forgiveness with his money. You would require, perhaps, that Peter take money for the Sacrament in order to prove it is a Sacrament? If it is a Sacrament one would expect him to refuse it to one who is trying to buy it, as that clearly demonstrates a lack of mental and faithful preparation to recieve it. As to it being all believers:
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Do you really believe that every believer was inside those doors, or perhaps that it was only the 12, as referenced in verse 24? Regardless, those in the room were ordained when Christ breathed on them, an ordination the Church passes down from generation to generation in Holy Orders. See also, Mt. 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

patent  +AMDG

41 posted on 02/21/2003 2:37:18 PM PST by patent
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To: patent
However, I do note that you repeatedly characterize Ms. Brown as being “disturbed by the cowardice of the North Dakota bishops.” ... can you show me where she says something of this sort, or are you just putting words in her mouth?

Here is the "Communique" newsletter from American Life League that was emailed TODAY, Feb 21, 2003:

Communique -- a pro-life news update
From: Judie Brown
February 21, 2003
Vol. 13, No. 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

in this issue:

hot button issues: NORTH DAKOTA

abortion: IS IT MURDER? / PENAL SANCTIONS

The excerpts from the Catechism may have been on the website previously, but the link to the page and the connection between the Catechism and the situation in North Dakota was sent to subscribers TODAY, Feb 21st.

In addition to her testimony, and in addition to the information in her newsletter, there is also the information from her response to a question on EWTN, which I have already previously posted:

"American Life League provided testimony in favor of the bill and I issued a statement which I post here for your edification because, as you have said, in this case, the Bishop is wrong to have opposed the bill, and none of us understand why he did."
Yes, she disagrees with the Bishops on this, but I hardly think she agrees with you,

It's not that she agrees with me, but that I agree with her, since she is the pre-eminent pro-life leader who has taken a 100% pro-life stance in contrast to so many other so-called pro-lifers who compromise at the drop of a hat, and that includes Catholic bishops. I agree with her brilliant strategy to begin the Crusade for the defense of our Catholic Church, an attempt to hold bishops' feet to the fire when they back down on pro-life principles. Check out this amazing ad they ran in the Washington Times when Al Sharpton was allowed to preach at a church in Chicago:

Al Sharpton is NOT a Catholic Priest

This important alert to Roman Catholic clergy presented by:
Crusade for the Defense of Our Catholic Church
A PROJECT OF AMERICAN LIFE LEAGUE
A COPY OF THIS AD HAS BEEN SENT TO ALL CARDINALS AND BISHOPS IN THE UNITED STATES.

Judy Brown and the American Life League are showing the way. Catholics should not continue to tolerate cowardice from their bishops.
42 posted on 02/21/2003 3:05:45 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: patent
Gotta go. I enjoyed this discussion.

I'll pray that God will direct us both in expanding and correcting our understanding of His plan.

Peace be with you!

43 posted on 02/21/2003 3:06:32 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Maximilian
Judy Brown and the American Life League are showing the way.

Judie Brown is an "all-or-nothing" pro-lifer. She criticized George W. Bush for not being pro-life enough in 2000 because he allows for the rape exception.

Yet, Bush re-instituted the Mexico policy, affirmed the fetus as a person for Health and Human Services purposes, and will sign a partial-birth abortion ban.

Judie may be a good force within the Church, but she is worthless politically. I haven't heard one word of encouragement from her about the steps Bush has taken away from Roe v. Wade, including the judges he's nominated.

44 posted on 02/21/2003 3:51:12 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: Onelifetogive
I would agree. That one baffles both me and St. Mark.

Don't include St. Mark in your ignorance. He wasn't a simple linguistic literalist like yourself and St. John was present when Christ said:

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When He had said this, He breathed on them; and He said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John 20:21-23

45 posted on 02/21/2003 4:54:28 PM PST by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: Maximilian
Thanks for the ping. Judie Brown acts in a more Catholic way; and in doing so, saves more unborn children, than these cowardly bishops.
46 posted on 02/21/2003 5:17:47 PM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: patent
Yes, she disagrees with the Bishops on this...

The point is not that Judie Brown disagrees with the bishops of North Dakota, the point is that the CATECHISM disagrees with them. And it proves that their self-serving excuses for not doing everything in their power to support this law were not supported by any Catholic teaching as they claimed.

your previous claim on this issue that “not even Catholic bishops truly support the right to life"...

That claim was in reference to these very bishops on this very issue. And it is self-evident. A bill is introduced to outlaw abortion. They come out and OPPOSE it. Their excuses are contrary to Catholic teaching in the Catechism. QED.

47 posted on 02/21/2003 6:15:00 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: sinkspur
Judie Brown is an "all-or-nothing" pro-lifer.

Yes, it's true. She won't accept any compromises with the principle that "innocent life may never be deliberately taken." Like her, I was one of the "pragmatists" for many years. Finally I opened my eyes and asked myself, "What have 30 years of pragmatism and compromise accomplished for the pro-life movement? Nothing!"

Pragmatism is not pragmatic. It doesn't work. One can never get their position advanced without the fervor of the true believer. This goes for left-wing causes as well as for right. When they see that we are wiling to compromise on principles that we claim are so fundamental and bedrock, how can anyone believe us? Is the NAACP willing to allow just a little bit of slavery?

I've swung over to the Judie Brown position that we will never achieve any success whatsoever until we demonstrate the courage of our convictions by not agreeing to be complicit in the deliberate deaths of any innocent life.

48 posted on 02/21/2003 6:19:58 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
BUMP
49 posted on 02/21/2003 7:43:52 PM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Maximilian
Here, here! Well said. The Russian Orthodox Church decided to be pragmatic too (maybe if it played ball with the commies, it could have some influence). That's why it soon became synonymous with "KGB."
50 posted on 02/21/2003 8:35:33 PM PST by attagirl (Watch and pray)
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