Rabbi warns: Some Christians are attempting to convert Jews

PJ Star.Com (Journal Star) ^ | April 1, 2003 | Sarah Okeson

[ComtedeMaistre]

Rabbi warns: Some Christians are attempting to convert Jews

Speaker says congregations should watch out for Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God

April 1, 2003

By SARAH OKESON of the Journal Star

PEORIA - Jews believing in Jesus as savior, says Rabbi Michael Cook, makes about as much sense as an International Society of Vegetarians for Meat.

"How can you eat meat and still be a vegetarian?" Cook asked.

Cook, perhaps the only rabbi in the United States with a Ph.D. in the New Testament, talked to about 60 people Monday at the synagogue shared by the two Jewish congregations in Peoria.

Cook, a professor at the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Cincinnati, said some Christian denominations have stepped up their efforts to convert Jews in the belief it will help bring about the second coming of Christ.

"They believe the only way that glorious end of the world can happen is if enough Jews move to Israel first or accept Jesus," Cook said.

He predicted Jews have about three more decades of strenuous conversion efforts to suffer through because the last time this happened - after the first millennium - efforts to convert Jews didn’t die out until 1035.

"We have 32 years of missionary fervor to get through," Cook said.

In the meantime, Cook ran through a list of believers to watch out for including Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews.

He said Southern Baptist and Assemblies of God are sometimes misleading in their efforts to convert Jews and that Jews for Jesus was founded by a Baptist minister.

"Their big desire is to convert Jews without Jews knowing they are leaving the Jewish fold," Cook said of Jews for Jesus.

The rabbi said Catholics and liberal Protestants stopped trying to convert Jews after the Holocaust and said Jews had a convenant with God and didn’t need to worry about being saved.

[ComtedeMaistre]

Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians are the most pro-Israel group of Americans around. Southern Baptists and Assemblies of God churches are not only strongly pro-Israel, but they are also the finest and most admirable Christians I have ever met.

How are these pro-Israel Christians being repaid for their support of Israel? With insults and denigration. Rabbi Michael Cook and those who think like him are ingrates. What we need are truly civilized Jews, like the admirable Rabbi Daniel Lapin of the Towards Tradition group.

[Illbay]

Rabbi warns: Some Christians are attempting to convert Jews

Don't agree with you about SBs and AGs--they tend to be rather shallow, my personal opinion--but it is absolutely ludicrous to worry about this, Rabbi.

If they want something else, they feel something's missing and they think they find it with Christ, then who are you to disapprove?

Why not do some prosletyzing of your own? That's how you guys got your numbers up about 1,500 years ago, after all, especially in eastern Europe.

[Illbay]

The rabbi said Catholics and liberal Protestants stopped trying to convert Jews after the Holocaust and said Jews had a convenant with God and didn’t need to worry about being saved.

Good thing the Apostles in 33 A.D. didn't adopt that attitude.

[thoughtomator]

Let them try to convert people, if done peacefully. It's a free country.

[EternalVigilance]

Jews believing in Jesus as savior, says Rabbi Michael Cook, makes about as much sense as an International Society of Vegetarians for Meat.

It makes perfect sense for a Jew to accept the Jewish Messiah. Shoot, all but one book of the New Testement was written by Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Annointed One.

'Completed' Jews are some of the greatest folks I've ever met.

[joesnuffy]

Hey Rabbi...you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink....
Only God can convert (convoit if you're Jackie Mason) man can invite..explain..pass out tracts
offer friendship...bible study ..
But actual conversion...the faith must stand or fail on its own merits and the prompting of the Holy Spirit...
other than that it aint Christian imo ..its a cult....beware....

[DannyTN]

"The rabbi said Catholics and liberal Protestants stopped trying to convert Jews after the Holocaust and said Jews had a convenant with God and didn’t need to worry about being saved."

If Moses and the other prophets told you about Jesus and you don't listen to them, isn't that a major, major violation of the Israeli covenant?

[SouthernFreebird]

Oh, the horror..... said in my best Ben Stein voice.

You've come a long way baby when this is what Jews are fretting over.

[skr]

A Jew coming to the realization of Jesus as the promised Messiah is the most natural outcome of Jewish Scripture, and it certainly doesn't stop him from being Jewish, any more than it stopped the Apostles from being Jewish.

[Cicero]

Christians believe that Jesus is the expected Messiah of the Jews.

Yes, we also believe that they are God's chosen people, and that the Covenant with Israel is forever--St Paul says as much, as well as numerous passages in the Hebrew Bible.

But why shouldn't Christians try to convert Jews? They need not listen, unless they (and God) make that choice.

[joesnuffy]

For a Jew to believe in Jesus seems logical to me...after all some of the very best Christians were Jews .. St. Stephen St Paul, St Mary, St Joseph, St John StJames StMatthew StMark etc etc..
What I find hard to fathom is a Jew who doesnt believe in G-d

[JmyBryan]

Yeah like http://www.mjaa.org/StatementOfFaith.html

[EternalVigilance]

Excellent.

[Ronzo]

Rabbi warns: Some Christians are attempting to convert Jews

I'm guilty as charged. I hope ALL JEWS come to know Jesus as their Lord & Savior. Why? Because Jesus is one of them! (Don't tell the good Rabbi...)

God bless the Jews.

[unspun]

>> Cook, a professor at the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Cincinnati, said some Christian denominations have stepped up their efforts to convert Jews in the belief it will help bring about the second coming of Christ. <<

Christians have stepped up their effors to lead Jews to their Messiah, understanding that this will bring them life.

[Quix]

HEY GROUP!

ANYONE with more spine than a slug

and

enough convictions of their beliefs to hold them with more of a grip than a drunken arctic explorer in mittens

IS VIRTUALLY ALWAYS EITHER CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY TO GREATER OR LESSER DEGREE

speaking, acting, using body language toward moving those they care about toward becoming more like them.

It's human nature.

IF YOU HOLD YOUR BELIEFS

but

DON'T THINK/FEEL

your beliefs are important or correct enough for those you love to share them,

then your beliefs are relatively worthless or your allegiance to them is fairly worthless.

IMHO, of course.

[Quix]

LONG LIVE THE A OF G's!

Sounds like they are doing something right to get this kind of flack!

[FITZ]

"How can you eat meat and still be a vegetarian?" Cook asked.

If this is his best logic, I can see why he's worried about losing much of his congregation. Actually all religions in a free society can worry about the same thing, when people have a choice in religions, some will leave the one they were born in.

[Gurn]

Don't agree with you about SBs and AGs--they tend to be rather shallow, my personal opinion--

And that's a rather shallow, bigoted statement.

[Spirited]

Seems to me Synagogues are losing more because they are captives of the religion of materialistic Secular Humanism than converting to anything else.

I do not hear complaints about the public schools converting Jewish children to that religion. Secular Humanists do not support Israel for the most part, either.

I suspect that to the extent that the Rabbis teach their children thoroughly and parents live their beliefs they will not lose people. No person can convert anyone, anyway.

[Quix]

Actually, according to my PhD research, you are wrong.

There ARE

INTRINSIC

and

EXTRINSIC

believers of all persuasions including atheist/agnostic.

But the charismatics/pentecostals in my group as a group scored much more in the INTRINSIC direction.

In other words, their Christian convictions were heart-felt and lived out vs held in a surface way as one would put on a coat.

Traditional denominations had a much higher percentage of people scoring much higher in the EXTRINSIC direction.

I think your biases are coloring your perceptions or you have a very skewed sample to look at in your life experiences.

[Illbay]

Nope, just my opinion, based on living among them my entire life.

Doesn't mean all are like this, but most SBs and AGs are much, much more into "feeling" than thought. Very, very emotion-based sects.

[Quix]

MUCH AGREE WITH YOU.

[Gurn]

God Bless the Jews, indeed.

I am a Baptist, a Zionist, and a lover of the Jews.

They are God's chosen, and I am convinced that their persecution over the millenia is because Satan is aware of that fact. He wants God's most precious people to suffer.

I pray for their conversion, not to hasten Christ's return -- that is something of which only God knows the time -- but because, like Paul, I know that God wants as many of possible of his Chosen to be redeemed.

Many Jews -- such as Rabbi Lapin -- take the right attitude: "Just listen and politely say, 'no thank you.'"

[Illbay]

Sounds like they are doing something right to get this kind of flack!

That's the kind of "shallow" thinking I had in mind. The notion that if you're "offending" some other religion, you must be "doing something right."

Very sophomoric.

[Gurn]

Very, very emotion-based sects.

And what's your "sect"?

[TLBSHOW]

This web site is one way we are celebrating three decades of ministry for the Lord under the banner of Jews for Jesus. We started with a handful of Jewish believers sharing their faith in Jesus on the campuses and streets of the San Francisco Bay Area in the early 70s. Today, Jews for Jesus is an international ministry with a staff of 214 spread out over eleven countries and twenty cities. Since we started, over 800 people have faithfully served on our staff and have helped to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to millions of individuals. And together, we rejoice over what God has done!
http://www.forjewsforjesus.org/

[Quix]

EMOTIONAL COMPONENTS TO BELIEF AND PRACTICE

tend to be a function of many things.

1) Childhood quality of attachments or lack thereof

2) Genetic make-up

3) Teaching and modeling by the group leadership in that particular congregation and in a large congregation--in the particular subgroup-reference group of the individuals concerned.

4) The behavior/modes/tendencies of one's closest Friends.

---

I'd wager that I could find just as much emotionalism in Church of Christ, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. groups.

BUT IT WOULD BE EXPRESSED DIFFERENTLY AND OVER DIFFERENT ISSUES.

People are people. We are all emotional creatures. Custom, habit, reference groups, genetics tend to determine how such is expressed and how much in what contexts.

Sects?

Sounds like a bit . . . of a stern judgment on your part.

[Gurn]

God bless Jews for Jesus. Your executive director (dang, I can't recall his name, but he's originally from Mobile, AL) was at my church (gasp -- Baptist! in Mississippi!) a few months back.

Moshe Rosen spoke at my (gasp! Baptist!) church in Virginia about 10 years ago. J/J has been on my prayer list ever since, and I send y'all a dollar or two now and again.

May God continue to bless your ministry.

[Illbay]

I don't mean they aren't heart-felt: Many are.

I have observed that many of them have a sort of "cognitive dissonance" about their religion that allows them to live one way during the week, and another on Sunday.

One example would be the Baptist girl a few years ago, who was the rental agent at some apartments I was looking at.

She told me all about her boyfriend, how they'd met at Church, did Church stuff, blahblahblah, they were living together and might get married, but now that she had gotten to know him he didn't seem enough of a "go-getter" to her, but she was going to give it a chance, etc.

Or the youth minister in Alabama, who would sleep with his girlfriend from time to time (though they wouldn't live together, that would be "wrong") but kept it quiet so the kids wouldn't know about it. They were going to get married as soon as she finished accounting school and they could afford it.

Like I said: I have lived among those people all my life, and find their attitudes quite humorous.

[Illbay]

How is a Jew that disdains Jesus Christ and refuses to acknowledge His Messiahship, "Chosen" exactly?

You sectarians have such a quaint, diffuse "theology" concerning this. All the more humorous because two generations ago, Jews were "Christ-killers" as far as you were concerned.

[Gurn]

Since you find our attitudes so amusing, why don't you tell us which "sect" you call your own?

[Quix]

IF

you haven't lived long enough as a believer

or you

haven't threatened the enemy's camp sufficiently as a believer

TO KNOW THAT WHEN YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB, HE LOVES TO CHALLENGE YOU AND TRY TO GET YOU TO WEAKEN, STOP, GET OFF BASE OR OFF TRACK

then I am likely to be convinced that your Christianity

IS NOT

very deep, very mature, very tough, very active, very significant.

That's mere correlational observation from extensive experiences and extensive observations of 1,000's of case studies.

Nothing shallow about it at all.

And certainly nothing sophomoric.

BTW, is your mirror broken?

[Illbay]

I don't belong to a sect. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.

[Bella_Bru]

Alouette, what was the old name for Jews For Jesus?

I agree with politely saying no thank you.

[BrooklynGOP]

How are these pro-Israel Christians being repaid for their support of Israel? With insults and denigration. Rabbi Michael Cook and those who think like him are ingrates.

Give me a break! Let's throw a few imams in your neighborhood and try to convert a few Christians to Islam. I'ld like to see YOUR reaction then.

[MHT]

He doesn't have to worry about conversion--the Jews are dying out on their own and at their current growth rate, the Christians better hope the second coming is soon because they will not have many people to convert down the road.

According to census statistics, there has been a decline of 600,000 Jews worldwide within the past decade from 12.9 million to 12.3. Of these Jews, five million live in Israel and 5.9 million in the US. At this rate, within the next 20 years, Palestinians and Christian Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel. Similarly, it is not surprising that Jews are targeted in France as they only comprise 1% of the national population (600,000 of 60,000,000 citizens).

The Jewish birth rate is close to 2 children per household while the Muslim birth rate is between 5-6. Nor do Jews emphasize conversion of non-Jews.

This rabbi would do better focusing on keeping the Jewish population growing than worrying about whether or not Christians are targeting their market.

[Illbay]

I don't disagree. In fact, my growing up in the good ol' South, gives me some insight into how such cultural components have a great deal to do with this "emotionalism."

Me, I think a healthy blend of both emotion and intellect is what is required. I have seen those who rely completely on the intellect, and they are very cold. I've also seen those who are totally emotion-based, and they are pointless.

[FreedomCalls]

If Jack Chick says it, it must be true:

[Bella_Bru]

I really wish they'd try their hand outside of a Yeshiva, instead of going to college campuses, seeking out young Jews who have no connection to the local Jewish community. Having them try to tell Rabbis what the Hebrew Bible says (when they cannot read Hebrew) would be quite amusing.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Just shows to go you that a PhD in New Testament doesn't mean you know squat about Christianity.

[Quix]

Like I said,

THERE ARE PLENTY OF EXTRENSIC BELIEVERS IN ANY PHILOSOPHICAL GROUP.

And I have met very few good churches, balanced, kind, loving, Scriptural, well led in humility and servant-heartedness etc. OF ANY DENOMINATION OR BELIEF STRUCTURE.

Most churches of every persuasion I've been in are mixtures of basket cases in this or that area--and usuallys everal areas. I have every reason to believe your sect to be the same even without knowing what it specifically is.

The phenomenon of putting one's belief system on like a coat for Sunday for business purposes or whatever is common for a variety of reasons in all philosophical orientations.

I also noted, you may have had a very skewed sample in your life experiences.

Though my conviction is that your biases have skewed your observations.

I had an A of G pastor once who noted that if a hypocrite was between God and you, he was closer to God than you were.

[Illbay]

Well, I guess he's trying to say that many conservative Christians are very supportive of Jews. He's probably right.

But he doesn't address the fact that they still want to convert these Jews if they can. I say "more power to 'em."

This notion that "Jews don't need conversion for they already have a covenant with God," seems to completely ignore the Old Testament record. Quite bizarre.

[Gurn]

Now we're getting somewhere.

How is a Jew that disdains Jesus Christ and refuses to acknowledge His Messiahship, "Chosen" exactly?

I believe that the Jews are still God's Covenant people. Scripture tells us that He used the Jews to bring the Messiah to the Gentiles. I've read nothing in the Scripture that holds that their collective rejection of Christ means that they're no longer God's Covenant people. And, as I said earlier, my reading of Romans leads me to the conclusion that God wants them to accept Christ.

You sectarians have such a quaint, diffuse "theology" concerning this. All the more humorous because two generations ago, Jews were "Christ-killers" as far as you were concerned.

Well, I can't speak for all "sectarians"; I'm a Protestant, and a Baptist. And, "two generations ago" I wasn't alive, so it would be hard for you to say anything "as far as [I was] concerned."

I think until Vatican II, it was an article of Catholic faith that "the Jews killed Christ." That's their deal, not mine. I've never held to that perverted belief, though I've known some Catholics who have.

Here's the bottom line: My sin killed Christ.

[Quix]

SO DO EARNEST BELIEVING SO BAPS AND A OF G'S

oh haughty one.

[Quix]

Now I can wholesale agree with you.

Thanks.

[HiTech RedNeck]

"everybody" killed Christ.

[Gurn]

...of Latter Day Saints?

[Quix]

Holy Spirit thru Paul indicated clearly that

KNOWLEDGE PUFFS UP.

[Quix]

I do suspect that God will still apply the Scripture

HE THAT SEEKS ME SHALL FIND ME

even for earnest Jews--somehow.

I believe they will still have to repent, confess, accept Christ as their Savior; Jesus' Blood death, resurrection etc. I suspect God CAN arrange that at their points of death but I sure wouldn't want to build a doctrine on that personal belief of mine.