The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[Gamecock]

"so he knew killing was a sin"

It translates murder, not killing. God ordered the "death penalty" throughout Old Testament. Worshiping a false god was a capital offense. Paul thought he was being righteous by carrying out God's Law. Here are just a few examples. Saul was probably operating under Leviticus 24:16.

Leviticus 24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Exodus 21:16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

Exodus 21:17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Exodus 31:14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Exodus 31:15 "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD . Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Leviticus 20:27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

[jude24]

Well, the problem is, my gut was to be infralapsarian. But, it was an Arminian friend (of all people) who convinced me of the illogic of that position. He asked, if Romans 9 speaks of God sovereignly electing whom He will, how could I think he doesnt elect whom He will to reprobation? I couldn't answer that.

Incidentally, this Arminian friend and I have found that the bulk of our disagreement is quite, quite minor: I believe in irresistible grace, he believes in prevenient grace. We can live with that; the difference between the two of us is almost mere semantics. We discuss it only in a friendly manner, and both learn from it.

[rwfromkansas]

Explain the slander, as Arminianism states that God provided a way despite the fall for man to choose of his own will...without God's causing...to either reject Christ or come to faith.

[rwfromkansas]

I will edit it slightly to make it more accurate, as I could see a bit of inaccuracy in the part where I talk about you thinking it was no big deal. That is not true. It is just that you think today God has willed the fall not an impediment to his Sovereign Grace, which I disagree with.

[P-Marlowe]

Moros = black beans and rice?

You need to go here for the context.

I've been called worse. But RW's choice of words in the matter was quite ironic.

[P-Marlowe]

I will edit it slightly to make it more accurate

You are still lying. You are quite the hypocrite RW. You need to repent. You know your tag line is not true, but it feels good to stretch your vision of the truth into a lie, doesn't it?

Are you sure Christ made a change in your life? What were like before?

[so_real]

Oh! Greek, of course! Not Spanish! Now I feel a little foolish :-)

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Are you saying that Matthew 7:18 is an argument for predestination? That the elect can not bring forth evil fruit and the in-elect can not bring forth good fruit? Perhaps I misunderstood you.

No, i was actually referring to the Unfallen, Allmighty God, where the parable would be absolutely true.

All right guys, time to bring this facade to an end! People are starting to take my argumentation beyond what it was indended, and i have no desire to be responsible for somebody getting into theological error.

This particular line of argumentation, which is nothing but a REDUCTO AD ABSURDUM version of Marlowe's earlier question was used to illustrate Paul's admonishment of "not going beyond what is written". We have reached entirely speculative territory here that is beyond our capability of knowing. In our ignorance, we are forced into entirely artifical and/or speculative constructs such as free will, a multiple aspect to the will of God (as if we could attribute human pathology to the Allmighty God!), Evil originating with God, etc.

The fact is that we cannot know how evil came about in a "good" creation. Our Physical nature, our "Spiritual" nature, and our Mental processes are in a state of depravity. There is no facet of the being called man (or the rest of the fallen creation) that is not totally depraved. This is not the same thing as utter depravity. Were we utterly depraved we would have long ago destroyed ourselves, and the creation that we interact with.

As long as we remain in this To-be-glorified-body-of-mud, we cannot know the things of God except through the revelation of the scriptures, which God in His mercy have provided for his elect (everyone who has been, is now, and will ever be saved), as sufficient for them. Sufficient does not mean exhaustive. i suspect that even with our transformed nature when we are with the Lord, we will never be able to fully comprehend the workings of an Infinite God. The expression is:

FINITUS NON CAPRAX INFINITUM
(The finite does not contain or comprehend the infinite)

My only message for all concerned is to "suck it up" and pull back from the precipice of speculation, and deal with what has been revealed in scripture. This grand old technique is called exegesis, or reading doctrine from or out of scripture. This speculative nonsense forces us into eisegesis, or the reading of doctrine into scripture, and a bad way to go.

i think my last couple of posts have illustrated the danger in that from both sides, and it is my hope that we can put the discussion back on track.

[jude24]

I think that's still a misrepresentation of Arminian theology. No (moderate) Arminian believes, "the Fall no longer binds and that he can pick himself back up without God."

Arminians believe in prevenient grace -- that God works in someone's life to regenerate them so that they can make the decision, but the outcome of that decision is not predetermined (though it is certainly foreknown). Bit they still believe that God must actively work in someone's life before they can come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The only difference between Prevenient Grace and Irresistible Grace is that the Calvinist believes the outcome is predetermined.

It only hurts your credibility to go for a "cheap shot" like that. There is a strong case to be made for Calvinism -- it does not need "cheap shots" to be made for it.

[rwfromkansas]

Actually, I believe it is true. You may not believe it consciously (I don't believe many Arminians do), but it is an outcome of your theology and your cronies have said worse things about Calvinism. I guess you just don't like it when something gets tossed back in your face.

You believe you don't need God to cause your entire conversion process, but instead you just need him to actually do the saving. That is enough in my opinion to establish my tagline as correct when considering the theological endpoints your beliefs lead to.

[rwfromkansas]

I will take that under consideration. You do have a point about prevenient grace, though I pretty much consider that a fake doctrine created to cover the faults of Arminian theology. But, nevertheless, some Arminians subscribe to it.

[P-Marlowe]

Thanks CDL. You know I was concerned with the direction that this thread was going. The assuredness of those who claim that God actually created evil based upon some esoteric reading of ambiguous scriptures was of concern. Yet people seemed willing to go out on a limb that I felt was a dangerous limb to climb out on.

Evil exists and God is Good. An agreement on those two facts should be enough to put an end to all the speculation.

OK what else were we arguing about? How did we get on this topic in the first place? Was this something I started?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

actual theological discussion

Perhaps you spoke too soon.

Marlowe has accused the Calvinists of becoming (FR 5th)!

And in post #472 he called my post "stupid."

He's obviously a doody-head. Make him take it back.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I don't like surprises.

And I sure don't want anything to be able to sneak up on God.

Somebody's got to row the boat. Michael's asleep.

[so_real]

Can I ask one more question about evil? It's a sincere one and I am completely open to all opinions.

As I posted earlier, I was raised with the understanding that evil is simply "rebellion against God". As such, it is not a creation, but rather a "potential" that exists simply because God exists. Anyone that rebels against God, does evil. This is one of those teachings that has always worked for me, so I've never questioned it. But I'm willing to do so now if there is more to the story and I can learn something.

[jude24]

You do have a point about prevenient grace, though I pretty much consider that a fake doctrine created to cover the faults of Arminian theology.

Fake? No. It doesn't quite go far enough, in my opinion -- but no one can deny that Prevenient grace is definately Scriptural. It might not go far enough -- being predestinarians, we also believe in irresistible grace -- but we still believe in Prevenient grace.

But, nevertheless, some Arminians subscribe to it.

Most articulate Arminians I have dealt with subscribe to it. When I was an Arminian, I believed this. It may be "Calvinism-lite," but it might be the important point. The rest of irresistible grace is probably relatively minor.

[jude24]

The question was initially yours; you wanted us Calvinist to answer up or down whether God caused man to sin.

That discussion sort of spiralled out of control.

[so_real]

Thanks for the clarification, by the way :-)

[P-Marlowe]

You believe you don't need God to cause your entire conversion process

Again, that is a lie. Geesh RW can't you stop? Can't you just accept that some of us who are not Calvinists actually believe that God is wholly responsible for our salvation? It is the damnation that is the problem. Men are wholly responsible not for their salvation, but for their damnation. It is the rejection of God's calling that seals their fate. Answering the call seals their salvation. "Behold I stand at the door and knock and if ANY MAN hears my voice and OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in with him, and sup with him and he with me." (God's part--to knock, my part-- to open).

That verse saved my life. I heard the knock, but I had to open the door. I had locked and bolted that door with a hundred locks, but when I heard God's call, I pulled aside the locks and opened the door. If that is works, then I suppose you could say I was saved by works. But answering the call to grace is only "works" to a heartless rigid Theologian who places God sovereignty on a pedesal and places god's love for the sinner and the reprobate in the round file.

Salvation is there for the asking. God is calling. He is knocking. God is not insincere in his call to all men to repent, as it appears many Calvninsts believe, but God sincerely wants all men to be saved. Even you RW.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

main characters

You like my movie analogy, don't you?

You like it; you really like it.