The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[drstevej]

You're putting your money on the wrong nag.

[P-Marlowe]

Anyone who "believes on Him" and lives up to Steve's four points IS probably saved.

So you don't BELIEVE the promises of God, huh? Feel a need to add some conditions to the promises? Think that maybe God hedges on his promises?

If so, then I'd have to suspect that maybe you don't BELIEVE.

I'd say God keeps his promises. He has promised to every man who believes on him that he shall have eternal life. God is responsible for keeping the rest of the conditions and keeping me saved (just like he promised). Not me. I'm just a sheep. Baaaaaa.

[drstevej]

you are confusing assurance and security.

[P-Marlowe]

You're putting your money on the wrong nag.

Sorry but I was predestined to bet that way.

Who art thou, oh dr steve, to say why hast thou made Marlowe this way? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto Marloweism, and another unto Steveism?

[P-Marlowe]

you are confusing assurance and security.

Security is the promise. (God's word).

Assurance is knowing that you've met the conditions for claiming the promise. (God's word Plus the witness of the Holy Spirit).

Am I missing something?

[drstevej]

P-M the regeneration/faith vs. faith/regeneration issue is the focus of the differences between our unsderstandings of the method of God's grace. It colors all of our conclusions.

Right?

[P-Marlowe]

Right? What difference does it make? Really? If Calvinists want to believe that they are Born Again before they believe and others think they are born again because they believe, then what difference does it make.

My beef with Calvinists is not that they believe they were elect from the foundation of the earth, heck I believe that, it's that Calvinists believe that if you don't believe that you were not given a choice in the matter -- despite all the verses that say that you do have a choice in the matter -- that somehow you don't believe the Gospel and that your "gospel" is the lie of Eden or some other such nonsense.

I believe that when God says "Choose Life, that you might live" that he really expects people to make that decision for themselves. God does not make the decision for you. If you go to hell it is because of missed opporunities, not because God gains pleasure from sending people there. It is in that sense that I see Calvinism as dangerous. Not because they believe that regeneration preceeds faith.

[drstevej]

your post makes my point. thanks.

[P-Marlowe]

?

[drstevej]

Read the article at the head of this thread again.

 

In the first place, the doctrine of predestination is not the formative principle of Calvinism, it is only its logical implication. It is not the root from which Calvinism springs,...

 

Thus it comes about that monergistic regeneration--"irresistible grace," "effectual calling," our older theologians called it,--becomes the hinge of the Calvinistic soteriology.

[P-Marlowe]

I could say that because God has infinite foreknowledge that every time a person submits to the grace of God that it is, in fact, irresistible grace, because he could not have done otherwise. That would not negate the fact that the person made the decision freely and without "compulsion" from God but merely because God calls and the person believes and follows --- "an effectual calling" if you will. It is technically an irresistible act of surrender because God knows that the person will surrender when he calls. As long as God knows something will happen, it cannot not happen.

So is there such a thing as "irresitible grace" and salvation by "effectual calling?" Yes. Do you have to be a Calvinist to believe it? No. It is quite compatible with Arminianism and other non-Calvinist theologies.

[drstevej]

Marlowe, you are beginning to sound like Xzins.

You redefine the term irresistable grace. We are wasting time with this.

[Gamecock]

which the Arminian worries about loosing at any time

What a miserable way to go through life. To think that one is only a breath away from losing their salvation. To think that only through one's own efforts can salvation be assured. You know, that sounds a little like works based theology.....

[P-Marlowe]

You redefine the term irresistable grace. We are wasting time with this.

And Calvinists redefine "all". Show me the greek for "irresistible grace" and then we can intelligently discuss the definitions. I can't find the term in my concordance. I can find "all" and you know what? The greek word for "all" means "all." Amazing, huh?

Now show me the greek word for "irresistible" and show me the word in its context with the word for "grace." And when you are done, show me where I have defined it any differently than the greek.

[Gamecock]

Show me the greek for "irresistible grace"

Show me the word "Trinity' in any original versions....

[drstevej]

Irresistable grace as used by Warfeld in the article is a historical theological term (as is Trinity).

BTW as an Amyraldian I believe in unlimited atonement. However, the word "all" and "world" lexically has some flexibility. It is not these verses that are the basis of my view that Christ deid for all. 2 Peter 2:1 is much stronger.

[drstevej]

Would you agree with post #674?

[P-Marlowe]

You go first.

[Gamecock]

I said it first

[drstevej]

Pic a number between 1 & 10 freep it to me and the closes to what I am thinking gets to go second.