The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[jude24]

First, remember that I am not a double predestinarian.

How's that work, in light of this?

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (Romans 9:18 NASB)

(This bodes well to be the most informative Calvinism thread in a long time. Everyone, thus far, is calmly and rationally discussing the topics without hurt feelings -- or that freakin' abuse button.)

[PFKEY]

If salvation were to be so exclusively God's doing, even apart from any freely given choosing by ourselves, then damnation would be all God's doing as well. The suffering souls in Hell would have had no part at all in their own choice of evil over good. This is repulsive to us on the face of it.

Repulsive indeed.

Good response, thank you.

[P-Marlowe]

How do you avoid double predestinarianism if it is the Good pleasure of God's will ONLY only that determines who will or will not be saved?

If God provides irresistible grace to some and to all others he provides no means whatsoever for repentance, or salvation, then by definition those who are created without the ability to respond to the gospel have been created for the sole purpose of being condemned to hell for eternity. If man has no ability because he was created that way by God, then he is surely predestined for hell in the same manner as those who have been "graced" with that ability are predestined for salvation.

I don't see how if there is predestination according to irresistible grace that there cannot be predestination according to God directed and God ordained inherent inability to respond to the gospel message.

Enlighten me.

[P-Marlowe]

***Second, Paul in Romans 9 expected you to conclude God is unjust. ***

I disagree wholehartedly with that conclusion. If you have a free hour, listen to this and let me know what you think.

http://www.xenos.org/realmedia/ram/rom/rom9-1.ram

[P-Marlowe]

Jude. If you have some time, listen to the sermon in post 44 and let me know what you think. It's an hour. I found it to be very helpful.

[jude24]

Can you summarize it?

[Gamecock]

Dr. SL Johnson used to tell us, "Men when you preach the gospel, if people don't say that you are presenting doctrine that makes God seem unjust, then you probably aren't preaching Paul's gospel!

BRAVO, BRAVO! </ standing ovation>

[P-Marlowe]

No, you really gotta listen to it. It's really a good exposition of Romans 9.

[Polycarp]

You are either misrepresenting Calvin's views or you are just ignorant

Neither, thanks. I have had lengthy debates with OrthodoxPresbyterian (as I'm sure he will attest) and I am certainly not ignorant of Calvin'c views.

Whether you agree with me that double predestination is the equivalent of pagan fatalism is a moot point, i.e., its my opinion against yours.

"Fate" is a perfect summary of Calvin's predestination, IMHO, and certainly not a misrepresentation.

If salvation were to be so exclusively God's doing, even apart from any freely given choosing by ourselves, then damnation would be all God's doing as well. The suffering souls in Hell would have had no part at all in their own choice of evil over good. This is repulsive to us on the face of it.

This is a perfect explanation of the inherent fallacy of Calvin's theology. Calvin's "God" is a pagan, angy repulsive "God."

His "God" is not the God of Christianity.

[Polycarp]

Sorry but that is out of character for the God of the Bible. I am certain it is out of character for the God you worship as well.

Cool! I finally agree wholeheartedly with you on somethin' !

;-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Is lent over?

Becky

[Proud2BAmerican]

From a practical standpoint, I've always found this debate *sort of* similar to counting angels on the head of a pin (or however the saying goes). Here's why:

Ultimately, the ends will be the same. A Catholic must still act according to God's will (that is, following Jesus), remain in a state of Grace, to make it to Heaven. A Protestant (Calvinist, in this case), must also act according to God's will, remain in a state of Grace, to make it to Heaven -- he just believes that the reason he's acting that way is because he was pre-destined to. Whatever the CAUSE of the actions -- either because the individual freely accepts God's Grace freely given, or because the individual was pre-destined to be among the elect -- the end result is still the same.

[Polycarp]

yep

[Polycarp]

Whatever the CAUSE of the actions -- either because the individual freely accepts God's Grace freely given, or because the individual was pre-destined to be among the elect -- the end result is still the same.

I think I was kinda sayin' something similar, i.e., its a Mystery. There is no human "Last Word" on a Mystery.

[lockeliberty]

Whether you agree with me that double predestination is the equivalent of pagan fatalism is a moot point, i.e., its my opinion against yours.

First, you must prove that Calvin was a double Predestinarian.

Second, did you even read the quotation from Calvin that I provided. If we all deserve damnation why would it be God's doing?

[drstevej]

BTW, Dr. SL Johnson has South Carolinian roots.

Dr. S. Lewis Johnson was born in Birmingham, Alabama and grew up in Charleston, S.C., graduating from College of Charleston with an A.B. degree in 1937. He was converted in Birmingham, while in the insurance business, through the teaching of Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse. He left the insurance business in 1943 to enter Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS), from which he graduated in 1946, Th.M. degree and in 1949, Th.D. degree. Dr. Johnson was Professor of New Testament from 1950-1972 and Professor of Systematic Theology from 1972 to 1977 at DTS. He served as Professor of Biblical and Systematic Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School at Deerfield, Illinois and is now Visiting Professor of Systematic Theology at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Amsterdam, Netherlands. He has done graduate work at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, Southern Methodist University (Dallas, Texas), and in the University of Basel, Switzerland. Dr. Johnson has now been engaged in pastoral ministry for about forty five years.

[DouglasKC]

[4] I can not answer the question of infants dying as infants, beyond the hope David expresses.

Hi drsteve...from documents I've read about Calvin, he seemed to be a strong believer in infant baptism. Do most Calvinists today hold to that view?

[drstevej]

Calvin did indeed believe in infant baptism.

Not all Calvinists today believe in infant Baptism, there are a number of reformed Baptists.

[DouglasKC]

Calvin did indeed believe in infant baptism. Not all Calvinists today believe in infant Baptism, there are a number of reformed Baptists. Thanks for the reply...

[snerkel]

JOHN 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those verse do not refute my statement. Verse 37 states you still have to come to Him, does it not? Also, I stated that we are drawn by the Holy Spirit. According to Ephesians 2:18, it is through the Holy Spirit that we have access to the Father.