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What's Inside the Trojan Horse? (John MacArthur)
Oneplace.com ^ | March 16, 2003 | John MacArthur

Posted on 05/03/2003 11:44:05 AM PDT by anncoulteriscool

What's Inside the Trojan Horse?

by: John MacArthur

By God's grace, I have been the pastor of the same church now for almost thirty-five years. From that vantage point, I have witnessed the birth and growth of menacing trends within the church, several of which have converged under what I would call evangelical pragmatism–an approach to ministry that is endemic in contemporary Christianity.

What is pragmatism? Basically it is the philosophy that results determine meaning, truth, and value–what will work becomes a more important question than what is true. As Christians, we are called to trust what the Lord says, preach that message to others, and leave the results to Him. But many have set that aside. Seeking relevancy and success, they have welcomed the pragmatic approach and have received the proverbial Trojan horse.

Let me take a few minutes to explain a little of the history leading up to the current entrenchment of the pragmatic approach in the evangelical church and to show you why it isn't as innocent as it looks.

Recent History

The 1970s, for the most part, were years of spiritual revival in America. The spread of the gospel through the campuses of many colleges and universities marked a fresh, energetic movement of the Holy Spirit to draw people to salvation in Christ. Mass baptisms were conducted in rivers, lakes, and the ocean, several new versions of the English Bible were released, and Christian publishing and broadcasting experienced remarkable growth.

Sadly, the fervent evangelical revival slowed and was overshadowed by the greed and debauchery of the eighties and nineties. The surrounding culture rejected biblical standards of morality, and the church, rather than assert its distinctiveness and call the world to repentance, softened its stance on holiness. The failure to maintain a distinctively biblical identity was profound–it led to general spiritual apathy and a marked decline in church attendance.

Church leaders reacted to the world's indifference, not by a return to strong biblical preaching that emphasized sin and repentance, but by a pragmatic approach to "doing" church–an approach driven more by marketing, methodology, and perceived results than by biblical doctrine. The new model of ministry revolved around making sinners feel comfortable and at ease in the church, then selling them on the benefits of becoming a Christian. Earlier silence has given way to cultural appeasement and conformity.

Even the church's ministry to its own has changed. Entertainment has hijacked many pulpits across the country; contemporary approaches cater to the ever-changing whims of professing believers; and many local churches have become little more than social clubs and community centers where the focus is on the individual's felt needs. Even on Christian radio, phone-in talk shows, music, and live psychotherapy are starting to replace Bible teaching as the staple. "Whatever works," the mantra of pragmatism, has become the new banner of evangelicalism.

The Down-Grade Controversy

You may be surprised to learn that what we are now seeing is not new. England's most famous preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, dealt with a similar situation more than 100 years ago. Among churches that were once solid, Spurgeon and other faithful pastors noticed a conciliatory attitude toward and overt cooperation with the modernist movement. And what motivated the compromise? They sought to find acceptance by adopting the "sophisticated" trends of the culture. Does that sound familiar to you?

One article, published anonymously in Spurgeon's monthly magazine The Sword and the Trowel, noted that every revival of true evangelical faith had been followed within a generation or two by a drift away from sound doctrine, ultimately leading to wholesale apostasy. The author likened this drifting from truth to a downhill slope, and thus labeled it "the down grade." The inroads of modernism into the church killed ninety percent of the mainline denominations within a generation of Spurgeon’s death. Spurgeon himself, once the celebrated and adored herald of the Baptist Union, was marginalized by the society and he eventually withdrew his membership.

The Effects of Pragmatism

Many of today's church leaders have bought into the subtlety of pragmatism without recognizing the dangers it poses. Instead of attacking orthodoxy head on, evangelical pragmatism gives lip service to the truth while quietly undermining the foundations of doctrine. Instead of exalting God, it effectively denigrates the things that are precious to Him.

First, there is in vogue today a trend to make the basis of faith something other than God's Word. Experience, emotion, fashion, and popular opinion are often more authoritative than the Bible in determining what many Christians believe. From private, individual revelation to the blending of secular psychology with biblical "principles," Christians are listening to the voice of the serpent that once told Eve, "God's Word doesn't have all the answers." Christian counseling reflects that drift, frequently offering no more than experimental and unscriptural self-help therapy instead of solid answers from the Bible.

Christian missionary work is often riddled with pragmatism and compromise, because too many in missions have evidently concluded that what gets results is more important than what God says. That's true among local churches as well. It has become fashionable to forgo the proclamation and teaching of God's Word in worship services. Instead, churches serve up a paltry diet of drama, music, and other forms of entertainment.

Second, evangelical pragmatism tends to move the focus of faith away from God's Son. You've seen that repeatedly if you watch much religious television. The health-wealth-and-prosperity gospel advocated by so many televangelists is the ultimate example of this kind of fantasy faith. This false gospel appeals unabashedly to the flesh, corrupting all the promises of Scripture and encouraging greed. It makes material blessing, not Jesus Christ, the object of the Christian's desires.

Easy-believism handles the message differently, but the effect is the same. It is the promise of forgiveness minus the gospel's hard demands, the perfect message for pragmatists. It has done much to popularize "believing" but little to provoke sincere faith.

Christ is no longer the focus of the message. While His name is mentioned from time to time, the real focus is inward, not upward. People are urged to look within; to try to understand themselves; to come to grips with their problems, their hurts, their disappointments; to have their needs met, their desires granted, their wants fulfilled. Nearly all the popular versions of the message encourage and legitimize a self-centered perspective.

Third, today's Christianity is infected with a tendency to view the result of faith as something less than God's standard of holy living. By downplaying the importance of holy living–both by precept and by example–the biblical doctrine of conversion is undermined. Think about it: What more could Satan do to try to destroy the church than undermining God's Word, shifting the focus off Christ, and minimizing holy living?

All those things are happening slowly, steadily within the church right now. Tragically, most Christians seem oblivious to the problems, satisfied with a Christianity that is fashionable and highly visible. But the true church must not ignore those threats. If we fight to maintain doctrinal purity with an emphasis on biblical preaching and biblical ministry, we can conquer external attacks. But if error is allowed into the church, many more churches will slide down the grade to suffer the same fate as the denominations that listened to, yet ignored, Spurgeon's impassioned appeal.

Make it your habitual prayer request that the Lord would elevate the authority of His Word, the glory of His Son, and the purity of His people in the evangelical church. May the Lord revive us and keep us far from the slippery slope of pragmatism.

© Copyright 2003 by Grace to You. All rights reserved.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: evangelism; pragmatism
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I think alot of the points here are most valid especially here in the south where the church can take on the form of a social club.
1 posted on 05/03/2003 11:44:05 AM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: RnMomof7
PING!
2 posted on 05/03/2003 11:46:51 AM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: anncoulteriscool; oldcodger; LiteKeeper; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; ...
Ahhhhhhhh one of my favorite preacher:>)

Reform Bump

3 posted on 05/03/2003 11:49:19 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: anncoulteriscool
I am currently reading "What Happened to the Gospel of Grace" By Boid

He asseses the condition of Evangelical Churches ..it is not a pretty picture.

I would reccomend it to any that have an interest in the growth of the INVISIBLE Church

4 posted on 05/03/2003 11:52:54 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for the ping, Mom. I will return to read this in-depth. I like JM too.
5 posted on 05/03/2003 1:02:39 PM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: anncoulteriscool
Having only recently moved to 'the south', I'm finding that to be (sadly) very true. At least when I lived in the most unchurched area of the U.S., generally speaking, only those who were sincere were willing to put up with the hostility and ridicule that came with being (at a minimum) a twice/weekly attender.
6 posted on 05/03/2003 1:05:47 PM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for the ping, RnMomof7. I'd been wondering if your bump list was still in effect.

I'm glad to say that this article doesn't apply to my local PCA church. We hear the Bible faithfully preached every Sunday. We also have wonderful music! I think I now have a better understanding of what it means to worship "in spirit and truth" than I did before I became a Calvnist. John Piper wrote that worship is an end in itself, not a means to an end. How true!
7 posted on 05/03/2003 2:48:38 PM PDT by oldcodger (a sinner saved by the grace of god)
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To: RnMomof7
My former pastor...he officiated at our wedding.

Did you see his two appearances on Larry King LIve...he was only one standing on the Word, and the Gospel!

8 posted on 05/03/2003 3:07:33 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
A good friend attended John's church and seminary in California. Johnny Mac is a good man.
9 posted on 05/03/2003 3:58:50 PM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: LiteKeeper
My former pastor...he officiated at our wedding. Did you see his two appearances on Larry King LIve...he was only one standing on the Word, and the Gospel!

Yes I did see him..I am always impressed with his zeal for the gospel!

10 posted on 05/03/2003 4:24:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Did you notice that this was a swipe at the "happy-clappy" Rick-Warren-Purpose-Driven-abomination-posing-as-worship-church without mentioning names? (sorry, i've been lurking too many threads in which f.Christian was posting, and his (?) incomprehensible posts, lacking standard syntax got to me!)

It seems that we have a war in our congregations in which we will either 1) Worship God in Spirit and in Truth; or 2) Worship man by accomidating our gatherings to the whims of the unregenerate;

11 posted on 05/03/2003 4:25:24 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Buy the Boice book and give it to a few to read..
12 posted on 05/03/2003 4:28:21 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
As in James Montgomery Boice, deceased pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia?
13 posted on 05/03/2003 4:44:37 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: LiteKeeper
****Did you see his two appearances on Larry King LIve...he was only one standing on the Word, and the Gospel!****

Yes I saw that to. In fact it was that appearance that prompted the Bush white house to invite MacArthur to the White House along with some other evangelicals.

14 posted on 05/03/2003 4:56:28 PM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
John Macarthur has a 2 hour tape out called "Does the truth Matter Anymore?". Its a really good tape where he talks about alot of the issues talked about in this article.
15 posted on 05/03/2003 4:59:36 PM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: anncoulteriscool
i'm pretty familiar with MacAuthur's work. While there are a few calls that i disagree with him on (Polity stuff, he's a Baptist, i'm a Presbyterian), he is solidly biblical. With people like him and R.C.Sproul on the air waves, CopelandHagin doesn't frighten me so much.

Sometimes i am still amased at how God moves His shepherds and His Watchmen to the same place at the same time. i have been reading some of the work of a Layman named Paul Proctor who has been dealing with the subject of the Apostate Church. He cites the present Church Growth movement in particular. Note also that The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (Michael Horton's organisation), has been dealing with this same subject since the early 90's.

i'm fighting this war within my own church. Our Leadership has decided to study and implement the Saddleback model, and are pushing Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Church. i have informed the leadership that they will do this over their dead bodies (i don't plan on dying alone). So we see a "line in the sand" mentality.

You know, i've always wondered...If we are trying to market the church as we would a business,...

1) Who are the "customers"?
2) Who are the "employees"?
3) Who are the "Bosses"?
4) What is the "product"?
5) Didn't Jesus chase the "businessmen" out of the temple?
6) What's the difference between marketing animal sacrifices, and marketing the sacrifice of Christ?
Just some thoughts.
16 posted on 05/03/2003 7:43:00 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Thanks for the response! I dont think Macarthur is a baptist though. I think he belongs to the Grace Brethren or Grace churches. His church website is www.gracechurch.org but I'm pretty sure he's not a baptist per se, atleast not a southern baptist.
17 posted on 05/03/2003 8:25:28 PM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: sola gracia; George Frm Br00klyn Park; JenB; Jerry_M; LibertyBelt; BibChr; Askel5; webstersII; ...
I think that the problem with evangelical pragmatism goes back to the 1950s, to evangelical leaders like Billy Graham. One of the problems I've had with his style of evangelism is that results are measured in terms of how many people "came forward" at one of his crusades. It was as if the parable of the sower had no significance whatsoever.
18 posted on 05/03/2003 8:44:52 PM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: sheltonmac
Actually I have been through the counselor training for a Graham Crusade and served as a Counselor Supervisor in the Atlanta Crusade (many) years back.

We were told not to presume that those walking forward were doing so because they were desirous of trusting Christ. We were trained how to interview those coming forward to discern what their need was and to minister to that need. As a supervisor my job was to listen in on these discussions and help with more complicated issues or questions.

I also was asked to look out for cult members who would walk forward and try to influence others walking forward. I broke up several of these situations.

Those who respond to the message are followed up by local churches.

I can offer many points of criticism to the process, but I think your summary needed some further explanation.

BTW, my "favorite" evangelist was George Whitefield.
19 posted on 05/03/2003 8:58:12 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Thanks. It's good to hear that local churches followed up. That's the way it should work. I guess I singled out Billy Graham for no other reason than he is perhaps the most recognizable figure who uses that kind of evangelistic approach.

I know many evangelical Christians--whether part of a singing group or short-term missions team--who shared reports like "350 people accepted Christ," or "Half of the people in the village were saved." They may have had methods for following up, but we never really heard that side of it. People always seem to be more interested in the emotional, heart-warming aspect of evangelism.

20 posted on 05/03/2003 9:24:21 PM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: anncoulteriscool
Thanks for the response! I dont think Macarthur is a baptist though. I think he belongs to the Grace Brethren or Grace churches. His church website is www.gracechurch.org but I'm pretty sure he's not a baptist per se, atleast not a southern baptist.

Actually, John MacAuthur is a Reformed Baptist. Like Presbyterians, Reformed Baptsist are Calvinists. They differ with Presbyterians in the following areas:

1) Reformed Baptists are Congregational in Government form while Presbyterians use a Presbyterian Form that the US Congress was modeled on.
2) The Baptists do only believer's baptism, while Presbyterians baptise infants.
3) Baptists celebrate the Lord's Supper as a Memorial only, Presbyterians believe that Christ is Spiritually present in the sacrament (not Physically present!)
There are other minor differences, but if you look at the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of 1689, you find very few differences in doctrine, in fact the Baptist Confession of 1689 mentions this in it's introduction. The Church of the Brethern is Arminian, and would be opposed to much of MacAuthur's teaching on the Doctrines of Grace. As Far as i am aware, Reformed Baptist Congregations are independent of one another, and have no organisational body like the Southern Baptist Convention, or the American Baptist Convention.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is also Reformed Baptist.

21 posted on 05/03/2003 10:19:44 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: anncoulteriscool
Easy-believism handles the message differently, but the effect is the same. It is the promise of forgiveness minus the gospel's hard demands, the perfect message for pragmatists. It has done much to popularize "believing" but little to provoke sincere faith.

Once again MacArthur nails it. I think this is the number one biggest problem today. Just "believe" , say the sinners prayer and that's it. No need to put on the righeousness of Christ.

22 posted on 05/03/2003 11:09:48 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; anncoulteriscool
Easy-believism handles the message differently, but the effect is the same. It is the promise of forgiveness minus the gospel's hard demands, the perfect message for pragmatists. It has done much to popularize "believing" but little to provoke sincere faith.

Once again MacArthur nails it. I think this is the number one biggest problem today. Just "believe" , say the sinners prayer and that's it. No need to put on the righeousness of Christ.

So salvation is the result of HARD WORK, huh? Are you saved because you believe, or are you saved because you work real hard at it?

23 posted on 05/04/2003 12:48:18 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; RnMomof7; anncoulteriscool; oldcodger
Rick Warren

Are they planning on wearing Hawaiian shirts in the pulpit, too?

We've been to Saddleback services a few times with relatives. Our younger son calls it "Church du Soleil."

It's "church as therapy." Their guideline is "what has church done for you lately?" They have it backwards.

Warren's made a fortune on that book, and God is not the richer for it, IMO.

"Worship is an end to itself; not a means to an end."

Great line, OldCodger. The antithesis of Saddleback.

24 posted on 05/04/2003 12:50:00 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: LiteKeeper; RnMomof7; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; anncoulteriscool; oldcodger; All
I saw him on Larry King and was struck by the fact that he was the ONLY one to stand up and proclaim the righteousness of God's grace.

The Rabbi hedged; the Priest dodged; the Moselm ignored; and Deepak Chopra choked.

Here's a great site with his April 20, 2003 appearance on Larry King, along with his sermons.

http://www.biblebb.com/
25 posted on 05/04/2003 1:15:30 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: anncoulteriscool
Thanks for posting this. I totally agree with this article. It is amazing to read the sermons of preachers from 100 years ago (a favorite hobby of mine) and compare them to what is currently being preached in many of our churches. It gives me an appreciation for sound doctrine.
26 posted on 05/04/2003 7:51:20 AM PDT by whipitgood (It's time to ask yourself WHAT YOU BELIEVE- THEN ACT ON IT!)
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To: RnMomof7
Re: "The Invisible Church"
Rn, you have hit on one of my pet issues about the church. WAY too much emphasis is placed on the visible aspects of the church, not nearly enough on the invisible. I believe the net effect of this is that our churches turn into social clubs, as the poster commented. Further, I think that our tendency to focus on the visible is a violation of the Third Commandment (Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in Vain). What is vanity after all, but focusing on the visible at the expense of truth? If we do this, do we not take His name upon ourselves for reasons of vanity?
27 posted on 05/04/2003 8:04:20 AM PDT by whipitgood (It's time to ask yourself WHAT YOU BELIEVE- THEN ACT ON IT!)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
As in James Montgomery Boice, deceased pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia?

yes written in 2000 I believe

28 posted on 05/04/2003 9:15:28 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: P-Marlowe
So salvation is the result of HARD WORK, huh? Are you saved because you believe, or are you saved because you work real hard at it?

Not hard at all friend, but quite different from the current theology of "I can do whatever I want because I'm saved." I suggest that you read MacArthurs "The Gospel According to Jesus" for a thorough and better explanation.

29 posted on 05/04/2003 9:41:23 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
"....different from the current theology of "I can do whatever I want because I'm saved."

And who preaches that?

Actually, I would say that a much more dangerous teaching is one which states that in order to be saved you must continue to keep the Mosaic laws. What that says is that Jesus statement on the cross that "it is finished" was a lie.

Did not Jesus die for all your sins? What can you do besides claiming the blood of Jesus over your sins that will save you? Does living a good life free from the outward manifestations of sin save you? Does it keep you saved? Or are you saved wholly and totally by the saving grace of Jesus?

Are you, if you believe in Christ, capable of committing a sin that Jesus did not die for?

30 posted on 05/04/2003 9:59:57 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: whipitgood
Re: "The Invisible Church" Rn, you have hit on one of my pet issues about the church. WAY too much emphasis is placed on the visible aspects of the church, not nearly enough on the invisible. I believe the net effect of this is that our churches turn into social clubs, as the poster commented. Further, I think that our tendency to focus on the visible is a violation of the Third Commandment (Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in Vain). What is vanity after all, but focusing on the visible at the expense of truth? If we do this, do we not take His name upon ourselves for reasons of vanity?

Well the visible church would be defined as all professing Christian that adhere to the creeds..God will seperate the sheep from the goats. We do not need to be concerned with that, BUT we do need to profess the gosple to that unsaved visible church as well as those outside the church

31 posted on 05/04/2003 10:04:57 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: P-Marlowe
And who preaches that?
Actually, I would say that a much more dangerous teaching is one which states that in order to be saved you must continue to keep the Mosaic laws. What that says is that Jesus statement on the cross that "it is finished" was a lie.
Did not Jesus die for all your sins? What can you do besides claiming the blood of Jesus over your sins that will save you? Does living a good life free from the outward manifestations of sin save you? Does it keep you saved? Or are you saved wholly and totally by the saving grace of Jesus?
Are you, if you believe in Christ, capable of committing a sin that Jesus did not die for? **

I believe that a belief in the Trinity and the PHYSICAL ressurection of Christ is also essential for salvation.

Some church like Dougs substitute historic Christian teachings for the Jewish law..

Saving faith must be in the right thing!

32 posted on 05/04/2003 10:11:12 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I read one of John MacArthur's books.One of my aunts suggested it to me.I still have it,The Gospel According To Jesus.It was interesting.I may read it again.
33 posted on 05/04/2003 10:48:06 AM PDT by Codie
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To: RnMomof7
I believe that a belief in the Trinity and the PHYSICAL ressurection of Christ is also essential for salvation.

I believe that those beliefs are signs that the sinner has actually believed and has salvation, but any understanding of such complex doctrines as the trinity and an acknowledgement of the physical ressurection of Christ is clearly not necessary in order to be saved. If so then the thief on the cross was doomed.

Do you think that the 3000 souls that were saved on the day of pentacost had any idea of the trinity? Did they understand the principles of the physical resurrection of Christ? Or did they simply respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved?

Gee Mom, for a Calvinist it seems that you have added a lot of conditions for God's unconditional grace.

34 posted on 05/04/2003 10:52:10 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: whipitgood; anncoulteriscool; RnMomof7; drstevej; Dr. Eckleburg
It is amazing to read the sermons of preachers from 100 years ago (a favorite hobby of mine) and compare them to what is currently being preached in many of our churches. It gives me an appreciation for sound doctrine.

Perhaps you should go back a bit further for a bigger slice of the picture < /mixed metaphor>. Early American Literature is mostly composed of sermons, particularly Puritan sermonns. One should consider a Jonathan Edwards, who every week composed a sermon of a two or three hour length. It was read from the pulpit, so that it had to be handwritten as well. Imagine the study that would be involved in producing a consistent manuscript that long, as well as the concentration involved in doing it in a week's time without computers or typewriters, electricity, ball point pens, legal pads, etc.

Then consider how different it is today when the congregation can hardly bear a 20 minute sermon that in usually extemporaneous. Some studies suggest that the average church goer forgets a sermon an hour after it is preached.

It is sad when we see how far we have fallen, even though we do have more liesure time, and modern conveniences.

35 posted on 05/04/2003 12:27:44 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
For my congregation to implement "The Purpose Driven Heresy", we will have to petition the denomination to make changes to the Westminster Longer Catechism and change the first question from:
Q) What is the Chief and Greatest End of Man?
A) The Chief and Greatest end of Man is to Glorify God and Fully to Enjoy Him Forever.
To the New American Slandard Version of the Catechism that reads:
Q) What is the Chief and Greatest End of Man?
A) The Chief and Greatest End of Man is to Glorify Himself and to have God Fully Enjoy Man Forever.
This is where that kind of "worship" leads us. And here is a question for all concerned: If we cannot show respect and reverence for God in our worship, how are we going to treat one another?

Think about that one.

36 posted on 05/04/2003 12:51:21 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
...Jonathan Edwards, who every week composed a sermon of a two or three hour length

While Edwards is to be commended for his hard work, the published sermons that I have reviewed appear to run between 4500 and 8000 words. At a normal speaking voice (125 words per minute-- most preachers today speak at about 175 words per minute) these sermons by Edwards would last anywhere from 35 to 65 minutes.

Unless the published sermons have been edited for content, I don't think that Edwards would have been preaching for 3 hours non-stop. Many preachers today have 3 or 4 services every Sunday plus mid-week bible studies and they preach an hour per service. Is their dedication to be discounted? Are they less the servant of God than Edwards?

Let us not forget that if you fell asleep during a Puritan sermon you could be flogged. There was an incentive to keep awake that you don't have in today's church. People today attend church because they WANT to, not because the have to. That was not always the case in the days of the Reformation and the days of Puritan America.

37 posted on 05/04/2003 1:02:54 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: whipitgood
It is amazing to read the sermons of preachers from 100 years ago (a favorite hobby of mine) and compare them to what is currently being preached in many of our churches.

Obviously you feel this situation needs correcting, so I assume that God has called you to full time ministry and you will begin this reformation of the modern Church immediately? Perhaps you could publish some of your "sound doctinal" sermons for us here on FR after you send them out to the masses?

Or do you feel, as an armchair critic, that God can simply call others to this task?

38 posted on 05/04/2003 1:40:31 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
While Edwards is to be commended for his hard work, the published sermons that I have reviewed appear to run between 4500 and 8000 words. At a normal speaking voice (125 words per minute-- most preachers today speak at about 175 words per minute) these sermons by Edwards would last anywhere from 35 to 65 minutes.

It is true that by today's standards the time length would be as you say. In my days in college debate, 600-800 wpm was not unheard of (yes, it is virtually incomprehensible!). It is also true that we have been Steadily increasing the rate that we speak at. Notice the length of the sentences that Edwards and others used. It is comparable to the sentence length of the Greek New Testament (which, as you may no doubt guess, is quite long). It would require a slower pace in order to understand the speaker. You may also not be aware that Edwards was reputed to have had a speach impediment (i believe that he stuttered, though i may be mistaken about the particular malady).

Unless the published sermons have been edited for content, I don't think that Edwards would have been preaching for 3 hours non-stop. Many preachers today have 3 or 4 services every Sunday plus mid-week bible studies and they preach an hour per service. Is their dedication to be discounted? Are they less the servant of God than Edwards?

i have no idea what your sources are, so i would not be able to tell you whether they are abridged or not. My source is the late Dr. John H. Gerstner, a scholar of Jonathan Edwards, and the teacher of R.C. Sproul (both from Pittsburgh). i do not know how many services Edwards held at North Hampton and other churches, though because of the total length of service, i doubt that 3 or 4 would have been possible. i can tell you this: i have never heard any preacher do an expository sermon for an hour length. i have been in a variety of different churches in different traditions running from Assembly of God to Episcopalian, From Covenanter to Catholic, and a variety of "independents". Twelve to twenty minutes is the average. As per dedication, all i have to go upon is what God has given, namely the fruits of the ministry. That means i would have to look at each on a case-by-case basis, so i do not need to tell you that i will remain ignorant on that particular issue. Somehow though, i don't see a Great Awakening coming out of Saddleback or Willow Creek. All i see coming out of those places are 1) a Remnant chosen by God, headed for other places; and 2) a "dumbded-down" church that is afflicted by "God-lite".

Let us not forget that if you fell asleep during a Puritan sermon you could be flogged. There was an incentive to keep awake that you don't have in today's church. People today attend church because they WANT to, not because the have to. That was not always the case in the days of the Reformation and the days of Puritan America.

Many of the colonies such as Mass. had complete religious toleration, which meant that groups such as Catholics and Deists could exist. While in the 17th Century, church attendance was compulsory, this was not the case in the 18th Century. Franklin and Jefferson did not regularly attend, and many others could not for distance. Keep in mind that church buildings were often poorly ventilated, lit and/or heated with open fires in candles, lamps and stoves. Oxygen depletion was a problem and would be manifested in sleep. Indeed, these measures while seeming draconian, may have saved lives in an era where carbon monoxide was unknown.

39 posted on 05/04/2003 1:59:06 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: P-Marlowe
ually, I would say that a much more dangerous teaching is one which states that in order to be saved you must continue to keep the Mosaic laws. What that says is that Jesus statement on the cross that "it is finished" was a lie.

And who preaches that? :-)

I would say that letting Christ live in us and through us is ceding our will to God. Christ did not and will not sin. He never broke any biblcal law, in fact he created them. The only laws he ever broke were the laws of men.

Faith in God means having the faith to LET him live in and through us. It means yielding to his power and will and letting him change and convert us.

Simple "belief" is addressed in scripture:

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In other words, WORKS is the proof of faith. It means that we are letting God work in us.

A refusal to follow scripture and obey God is simply a denial of his lordship over us.

40 posted on 05/04/2003 2:07:40 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
i can tell you this: i have never heard any preacher do an expository sermon for an hour length.

Well obviously you've never heard Jon Courson. His expository sermons last at least an hour each and often as long as an hour and a half. It took him over 12 years to get from Genesis to Revelation and every sermon is here for your listening pleasure:

Jon Courson's Sermons at Firefighters for Christ

BTW why does a sermon have to be longer than an hour in order to be effective? God was quite short on words when he issued the 10 commandments. And I think that the average reader could read all the words in red in the entire new testament in about an hour. The Sermon on the Mount was about a 5 to 10 minute sermon. So the Lord does not judge the effectiveness of a sermon by the length, but by the content. So I would much prefer listening to a preacher who can effectivley communicate the gospel in a 10 minute sermon, than a preacher who rambles on for hours and hours and does not comminicate to anyone but himself. The length of a sermon is not how it should be judged. If so, then by that standard Jesus was a lousy preacher.

41 posted on 05/04/2003 2:17:56 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
I believe that those beliefs are signs that the sinner has actually believed and has salvation, but any understanding of such complex doctrines as the trinity and an acknowledgement of the physical ressurection of Christ is clearly not necessary in order to be saved. If so then the thief on the cross was doomed.

So you think that memebrs of the Armstrong church are saved?

42 posted on 05/04/2003 3:00:44 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
LOL.

A few years ago we attended a Presbyterian church (in name only, it turned out).

We suggested an adult discussion group on the Westminster Catechism (how radical). We were voted down, as a study of the Westminster might appear too "divisive" to some.

We left the next Sunday.

43 posted on 05/05/2003 1:27:12 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
We suggested an adult discussion group on the Westminster Catechism (how radical). We were voted down, as a study of the Westminster might appear too "divisive" to some.

LOL, do you think that John Knox would have ever been recieved into membership in such a congregation?

Some people in our denomination think that the initials E.P.C. stand for Everybody Please Come. i have been working hard to disabuse people of that idea.

44 posted on 05/05/2003 1:20:27 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: sheltonmac
One of the problems I've had with his style of evangelism is that results are measured in terms of how many people "came forward" at one of his crusades. It was as if the parable of the sower had no significance whatsoever.

Give the BGEA credit where it's due. They have kept statistics on the results of their "crusades" over the decades, and inform us that 4% of those who "make a decision for Christ" actually become active Christians. This would indicate that the "crusade evangelism" approach -- inducing conversions through various techniques of emotional manipulation -- has a 96% defect rate. People have some kind of experience induced by the event, which fails to last too far beyond the event that created the experience.

I have a personal conviction against responding to altar calls.

45 posted on 05/06/2003 6:13:41 AM PDT by TomSmedley ((technical writer looking for work!))
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To: TomSmedley
"I have a personal conviction against responding to altar calls."

Especially since the gospel itself is all the invitation anyone ever needs. The danger of altar calls, in my opinon, is that the evangelist tends to take over the Holy Spirit's job of giving people the assurance of salvation. It would seem that many people leave these crusades with a false sense of security.

46 posted on 05/06/2003 6:32:22 AM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: anncoulteriscool
Nearly all the popular versions of the message encourage and legitimize a self-centered perspective.

Hmm, that has a lot of good sound bite, but isn't there a strong element of this in the REAL gospel? We want to save our eternal souls from hellfire, we want to live forever in heaven with Jesus, and not be punished by a wrathful God for our heinous sins.

Seems rather self-centered from the start, right?

Our church is about halfway between Southern Baptist and Reformed. Moving towards more Reformed. But, I fear we may lose the zeal for evangelism, as we drift into a calvinist elitism... say it quietly once and a while, and if God wants them to hear it, they'll hear it. I mean, don't we think God draws A LOT of people? Shouldn't we at least assume that, and strive to get the gospel out there?
47 posted on 05/06/2003 1:32:54 PM PDT by FactQuest
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
E.P.C. stand for Everybody Please Come. i have been working hard to disabuse people of that idea.

And what about Mars Hill? Seems like we live in an atheistic and pagan society, and we need to connect God's message to something in their frame of reference. To do less is to not care about their eternal salvation. Is ECP for Everyone Presently Christian, and the rest can literally go to hell?
48 posted on 05/06/2003 1:37:24 PM PDT by FactQuest
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To: sheltonmac; TomSmedley
We rarely do altar calls anymore, either.

But, this can be awkward... in most Baptist churches, that's how you join. We don't have a good mechanism for joining, except calling the office during the week... quite awkward, that.

More importantly, if someone feels the Holy Spirit call, and wants to respond, do they always know what to do? Wouldn't it be good to have a pastor lead them, whatever the call? Better at least than just standing there, not knowing what to do or who to talk to, right?

Sure, its waaaay overdone in a lot of churches, but you don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater...
49 posted on 05/06/2003 1:42:15 PM PDT by FactQuest
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To: P-Marlowe
Are you saved because you believe, or are you saved because you work real hard at it? ~ P-Marlowe Woody.
50 posted on 05/06/2003 2:55:15 PM PDT by CCWoody
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