THE NUNC DIMITTIS OF JOHN PAUL II

Catholic Dossier ^ | 2001 | Ralph McInerny

[St.Chuck]

Your post must have been the cause of my gas.

Wasn't expecting that.

[St.Chuck]

This Pope has had his chance to make a difference and, for whatever reason, he blew it.

He has made a difference in my life, and I know of many others who would say the same thing.

[JNB]

The subruban parish' are bigger, and there are less of them. The church has only grown in the US because of immigration, and even with that, parish' in the inner cities and old cities epsecially in the East Coast and Midwest have had to be cloased down. Even several parish' in the SF Archdiocese had to be closed down.

Would mass attendence declined with or without Vatican II, who knows, but sadly, all too often Catholics have no idea where the church stands because of the "Sprit of Vatican II".

[JNB]

If you are in the suburbs with a new, large parish, you will see somthing entirely different than you would see in the old cities and towns back east were parish' have been closed or consolidated.

[JNB]

Talking to a priest who knows Latin, perfidious in Latin meann unbeliving, though the words meaning in the secular world took on worse meanings, so the Good Friday Liturgy was changed in 1955.

One thing I keep on noticing form you sinkspur is your are hostile to the traditions of the church, and again, I am here to tell you that we will not shut us up or leave you are your ilk alone in terms of liturgy. You are a very bitter man in your attitude towrds people who value tradition, even with more moderate traditionalists.

[saradippity]

The population has increased by almost 100,000,000 and your figures show an increase of 12,000,000 Catholics. To have kept up with the population increase the Catholic Church should have picked up at least 16,000,000 if not 20,000,000. The person you are responding to needs to get in touch with reality.All this burgeoning church blah blah is bunk.

I believe that these overinflated figures we get from the "progressive" wing of the church is an excuse to hire more chancery officials;kind of an emplyment program for ex priests and nuns. It also gives the naughty old bishops reason to extend their deacon program,yucko.

[Ippolita]

Yes, the last supper triggered Judas' betrayal of Jesus and the connection is explicit in the texts, just as VII triggered the collapse of the Catholic Church. Also I have bad news for you, you may be right again in the Bush 9/11 connection.
Think: if Clinton's minion, Gore, had been elected would there have been a 9/11?
Maybe not, because the unholy covenant between the DemAdmin and Islamo-fascism (clearly demonstrated by the very soft response to the Beyrut style attack in 1993; by the use of federal funds to aid palestine, by the absolute inaction towards terrorism in general, etc.) would have stayed in place and the progressive 'peaceful' islamization of the western world would have continued UNCHECKED.

[NYer]

We've succumbed to the secular culture.

This is so true! Church attendance is down throughout the world, not just here. For decades now, communism and socialism have spread throughout Europe; it is now filtering its way into this country.

Sunday evening, Fr. Grunner who runs one of the many Fatima web sites, was a guest on talk radio. Though I missed the show, I did visit his web site. For those, like me who have forgotten Our Lady's message at Fatima:

The rise of Communism in the first half of the 20th Century engendered the widespread glorification of materialism and atheism, establishing a new "religion of man" without and opposed to God. Speaking at Fatima six months before the Bolshevik Revolution, Our Lady warned that, if man did not stop offending God, He would use Russia as His chosen "instrument" to punish the world. She further declared that, if Her Fatima requests (especially for the consecration of Russia) were not heeded, that Russia would "spread her errors across the earth, raising up wars and...annihilating various nations." And just as God's Mother predicted, the "errors" of Russia -- materialism, militant atheism, totalitarianism, abortion, euthanasia and genocide -- have spread across the face of the earth, leaving mountains of corpses as the "fruits" by which "ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:16).

Perhaps we need to revisit the Fatima messages. Here is a link to Father's web site: FATIMA

[Hermann the Cherusker]

But Kaiser Otto lives, as does his son Archduke Karl. Catholic prophecy assures as that a scion of this line will eventually come to power again ("The Great Monarch" who is supposed to be a descendant of Charlemagne and together with "the Great Pope" is supposed to reform all things after the Three Days of Darkness, if you believe all that).

The Matthias Dom in Budapest awaits.

Otto's father, Kaiser Karl, is now a Venerable. Kaiserin Zita will probably follow.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I'm sorry you find Catholicism and History "bizarre". Hopefully you can overcome that handicap.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Talking to a priest who knows Latin, perfidious in Latin meann unbeliving, though the words meaning in the secular world took on worse meanings, so the Good Friday Liturgy was changed in 1955.

Perfidous was always translated "faithless" or "unbelieving" in the many Latin-English Missals I've seen.

The change was to placate the Jews who were then and still are blaming traditional Church teachings for the Holocaust.

[Loyalist]

Talking to a priest who knows Latin, perfidious in Latin meann unbeliving, though the words meaning in the secular world took on worse meanings, so the Good Friday Liturgy was changed in 1955.

The changing meanings and connotations of words over time are significant weaknesses of vernacular liturgies. As a dead language, Latin doesn't have this problem as its vocabulary is now forever fixed in meaning and connotation.

[sinkspur]

I am here to tell you that we will not shut us up or leave you are your ilk alone in terms of liturgy. You are a very bitter man in your attitude towrds people who value tradition, even with more moderate traditionalists.

I'm not bitter at all. Not in the least. It seems to me it is you and a few others around here who try to slap down anybody who speaks up for the Novus Ordo.

And I'm all for "traditionalists" who can't stomach the Novus Ordo to have their own rite, or their own parishes.

You're dreaming if you think there are hordes of Catholics chomping at the bit to start attending Latin Masses.

Before you start judging someone else's disposition, you better look at the crowd you're hangin' with.

[ultima ratio]

What has he done besides wave his stick at you at a youth rally? I notice that those who defend him do so without offering evidence. This is because the evidence is to the contrary--that he has been incompetent, a lax disciplinarian and poor judge of character. He has been indifferent to liturgical abuses, for instance, for twenty-five years--despite continuous complaints on the part of the faithful about openly apostate bishops and priests. Only now has he come out belatedly against a few of these in an encyclical. He has a poor record as far as elevating prelates in general--his selections have been uniformly mediocre and even scandalous. He has elevated men of very doubtful orthodoxy even to the cardinalate. He has likewise tolerated corruption and dissent in the seminaries for decades and in the dioceses themselves--and has done absolutely nothing to push for reform of either. If he had a plan or vision to do so, nobody has ever heard of it. His reactions to the sex abuse scandals that have plagued the Church under his pontificate has not only been inadequate, it has been shocking. In effect, he has shrugged and moved on, showing a monumental indifference to the victims of such abuses. In short, I don't see much evidence that this pope cares very much for the ordinary Catholic. He is a showman, a celebrity, he likes schmoozing with crowds--but that does not a successful pontificate make.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

The Pope has a relationship with God that few have thought of. Do you know a way to stop the "sexual revolution?"

[Maximilian]

The Pope has a relationship with God that few have thought of.

I don't think I mentioned the pope. The post was about Vatican II. If any pope would be involved it would be John XXIII.

Do you know a way to stop the "sexual revolution?"

There is only 1 way: living a life of sanctifying grace. That was possible for Catholics living a traditional Catholic life. All the evidence indicates that it is not possible for Catholics living the post-Vatican II New Church life.

[St.Chuck]

What has he done besides wave his stick at you at a youth rally?

Hee, hee. You might find it completely incredible, but sometimes, all it takes is waving a stick. The criteria demanded by the apostle Thomas was not necessary to the other apostles. I know the pope has not measured up to your personal expectations, but I'd venture to guess that most Catholics don't share your severe judgementalism. In fact, rare is the Catholic that shares your encyclopedic knowlege of church history and theology. My guess is that most Catholics want to serve God through His Church via the sacraments and don't feel the need to critique the pope's every action or phantom inaction. For a Catholic the "stick" speaks for itself.

If you sincerely feel that there is a void concerning the treatment of sexual abuse victims, I humbly suggest that you take up the cause.

[ultima ratio]

"You might find it completely incredible, but sometimes, all it takes is waving a stick."

Your response says it all. You--and others who think like you, including Vatican functionaries--think because the Pope is accessible to the young as a celebrity, this is somehow sufficient to make up for a woeful worldwide poverty of catechesis. It isn't. There is need for this Pontiff to address the failures on the diocesan level--and by extension, on the level of the local parish. If he can't or won't impose discipline, he is himself a failure--no matter how accessible he is personally.

[St.Chuck]

I think you missed my point, but moving on....regarding abuses at the diocesan level, perhaps the pope subscribes to the principle of subsidiarity.