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To: Hermann the Cherusker
In 1962, over 75% of 48 million Catholics were at Mass every Sunday - 36 million.

In 2003, 25-33% of 60 million Catholics are at Mass every Sudnay - 15-20 million.

Bet ya the figures for mainline Protestant denoms are roughly the same, if not worse. And they didn't have no Vatican II!

19 posted on 05/06/2003 5:49:35 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
In fact, mainstream prod's are in far WORSE shape. I'll ping you.
21 posted on 05/06/2003 6:12:23 PM PDT by narses (Christe Eleison)
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To: american colleen
Bet ya the figures for mainline Protestant denoms are roughly the same, if not worse. And they didn't have no Vatican II!

You apologists for Vatican II are wrong again. On the contrary, the mainline Protestant denominations went through exactly what the Catholics did - jetisoning their traditional liturgy for a made up modernist concoction and updating their dogmas.

The revised Luthern and Episcopalian Liturgies are almost word-for-word the same as the Novus Ordo. They use exactly the same lectionary.

And it was in the 1960's-70's that all these Church's "got relevant" and suddenly "saw the light" on women's ordination, abortion, fornication, divorce, liberation theology, etc., etc. The evil seems to have started with VCII and spread directly into all the mainline Churches from there.

Many in my family were Episcopalians, and they all stopped attending (except my mom) when the Church "got relevant". As my grandmother put it, in words that could have come straight out of the mouth of a Pius X'er - "When they changed the liturgy, it was like they took your whole faith away from you. I just said to myself, if they are going to take that away, what is the point of going? So I stopped"

As far as attendance falling, the mainline Churches never had the attendance figures of the Catholics. It would surprise me if more than 50-60% went every Sunday. In many denominations it has long been true that only 30-40% attended. Today, the Catholic Church has actually fallen to a lower attendance level than even the low level of attendance at the mainline Churches.

28 posted on 05/06/2003 8:04:46 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: american colleen; Salvation; narses
I firmly believe with all my heart and soul that whether Vat II happened or not, attendance at Mass would be the same as we see today. We've succumbed to the secular culture.

Catholics had avoided succumbing before. What was different in 1960? The difference was the Institutional Church succumbed and lead the laity astray. Alvin Toffler (admittedly not a Catholic source), states his belief that the 1960's would not have been as radicalized as they were had the Church not changed. In other words, the Church was the vanguard, not something going with the flow. This should be intuitive. The Church made her changes by 1965-1967. The real radicalization of the US and World followed in the 1968-1972 period (i.e. Paris University Strike was in 1968, Abortion legalization started in the 1967-1969 period, etc.).

Bet ya the figures for mainline Protestant denoms are roughly the same, if not worse. And they didn't have no Vatican II!

Present Roman Catholic and Protestant figures here. RC = 24%, Proto = 20%.

The article also contains an example of the Catholic attendance collapse: "The Archdiocese of San Francisco has collected attendance data from all its parishes since 1961. In the subsequent 35 years mass attendance fell by almost half, dropping from 205,000 to 107,000. Yet two surveys of community residents in the three-county archdiocese area (one in 1972 and one in 1996) reveal a very stable Roman Catholic population and a stable proportion of Catholics who say they attended church."

34 posted on 05/06/2003 9:08:46 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: american colleen; Salvation; narses; Loyalist; NYer
Bet ya the figures for mainline Protestant denoms are roughly the same, if not worse. And they didn't have no Vatican II!

As I said, nope! You are wrong. Protestant attendance was always much lower.

"Catholic losses from 1955 to 1975 were proportionately greater than Protestant, so that now 40 percent of Protestants and 55 percent of Catholics report attendance during the past week, compared to about 44 and 74 percent, respectively, in 1958." <a href="http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct1978/v35-3-criticscorner1.htm>From 1978, source here.</a>

35 posted on 05/06/2003 9:11:36 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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