VATICAN: Return of the Latin Mass? "celebrate Latin Mass on a weekly basis in every parish in world"

Inside the Vatican News ^ | May 13, 2003 | Robert Moynihan

[huskyboy]

What "truth"? That the Tridentine Mass was normative for five hundred years, but that the Novus Ordo is now?

The truth is, the only true Mass in the Latin rite is the one codified and canonized by Pope St. Pius V. The novus ordo is not a Mass at all, based on what he wrote in Quo Primum.

The other truth is, the Mass in the Latin rite was always said in Latin from the beginning - but over time there were regional variations, which Pope St. Pius V sought remove because of the bad influences around during the Reformation.

You may want to read The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. Many of things you've posted regarding the novus ordo have been refuted by this book.

[nickcarraway]

BUMP

[nickcarraway]

BUMP

[sinkspur]

The truth is, the only true Mass in the Latin rite is the one codified and canonized by Pope St. Pius V. The novus ordo is not a Mass at all, based on what he wrote in Quo Primum.

No pope can bind another pope on matters liturgical. Pius XII changed the Holy Week ceremonies before Vatican II.

The Mass is the Mass, no matter what Wathen says. This has been argued ad nauseam here, for two years, and the traditionalists ultimately boil down their argument to saying that the Novus Ordo doesn't emphasize the sacrificial aspect of the Mass enough.

Of course, what's behind that is the flawed logic that the Holy Spirit is somehow less with Paul VI and JP II than He was with Pius V.

It's OK not to like the Novus Ordo, which is why I believe the Tridentine Mass should be made available widely.

But you are dreaming if you think the Novus Ordo is going to be suppressed any time soon.

[sinkspur]

Are you SSPX?

That's all we need around here.

[NYer]

What if I can't understand Latin?

They will be more than happy to rent you a 1962 missal ... LOL!! They're written in both Latin and English. Want your own personal copy? Check out eBay.

[NYer]

For a little historical accuracy, the Novus Ordo is the normative Mass in the post-Vatican II Catholic world.

You are right! However, it was never intended that the vernacular would completely replace the use of Latin.

CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

"36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, **the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites**.

2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be **extended**. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to **some** of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide **whether**, and to what **extent**, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language."

The text would seem to suggest that the vernacular could be *extended* in the Mass, but not replace the Latin altogether. I suppose one could read the word "extended" so as to cover the whole Mass and make it all vernacular, but it would be hard to see how such an interpretation would keep intact the previous sentence, which says that the Latin language is to be "preserved."

.... greenspun.com

[Polycarp]

why do you say this? I honestly want to know - I am not setting you up to jump on you.

The arbitrariness of the celebration of the new mass, the lack of cohesive and authentic catechesis on the nature of the faith and the Sacrifice of the Mass contained in the wording of the new mass, and the poor translations into the vernacular from the Latin version of the new mass have gutted many masses of their sacred character, and lead to wholesale loss of faith and collapse in Catholic catechesis over the last 3 decades.

[NYer]

Let a thousand flowers bloom. Allow a choice of the Tridentine Mass occasionally. It can't be anything but good to accommodate as many Catholics in worship as possible.

You make a strong point. In the 40 years that have passed since Vatican II, many have been born and raised in the Novus Ordo rite. Along the way, many peoples of other nationalities have also been opened up to the catholic message through the use of vernacular in their respective dioceses. Setting aside the abuses, the concepts that drove the Novus Ordo rite were good and justifiable. Any change, would have to maintain the beauty of both rites.

[Polycarp]

I'll settle for nothing less than the Vatican reaffirming Quo Primum and another document totally banning the novus ordo service and preferable a third admitting that it was wrong to have even conjured up and propagated something that passes off as a Mass, but really isn't.

Then be prepared not to settle...

[JNB]

You are so respectful sinkspur. "doddering seniors" kneeling? Trashing people for praticing their faith? THis only shows how bitter you are sinkspur, I know in a reply a week ago, you said somthing to the effect, "look in the mirror" about bitterness, well, it is time you re asses some of the thing you are saying.

Again I will restate sinkspur, the restoration movment is not going away, a universal indult or a quasi rite will not make them go away, and they are gaining strenth as the years go on.

[Polycarp]

doddering seniors attempting to kneel to receive the Eucharist where there is no altar rail

My Marie received First Holy Communion this past Sunday.

The pastor placed a Prie Dieu (Prayer Kneeler) up front, and distributed communion, by intinction, on the tongue, with the First Comunicants kneeling at the Prie Dieu.

I've seen more than one Prie Dieu gathering dust in corners of almost every Catholic church I have ever entered.

The Prie-Dieu Proposal:

Now that the Vatican has made it crystal clear that kneeling to re-ceive Holy Communion remains an inviolable right of Catholics, de-spite the adoption (with Rome's approval) that standing will be the normfor the Church in the U.S., parishes must seriously consider how to ac-commodate those who wish to kneel.

No doubt that those who kneel in a line of standing communicantscan be disruptive, as well as very difficult for those of us who are phys-ically challenged. But, as the letter from Jorge Cardinal Medina Es-tevez clearly stipulates, kneeling for Communion is a right that cannotbe tampered with.

Our liturgical innovators created this situation (perhaps deliberately)by the wholesale removal of Communion rails in thousands of church-es. Now they are obliged to find a remedy to protect the rights of kneel-ing Catholics.

There is a very simple solution to the problem. For those churches who still have Communion rails, a section of the rail should be desig-nated for communicants who wish to kneel to receive. A separate linefor kneeling communicants would form behind this section.

In the case of a church having no Communion rail, a simple prie-dieu (French - pray God) or kneeler should be placed at the front of a Communion station. A line of those wishing to kneel would form be-hind the prie-dieu to await their turn.

In either case, if there is but one priest to distribute Holy Commun-ion, the kneeling communicants would simply wait for the priest to fin-ish with the standing communicants. After Mass, the prie-dieu wouldbe returned to its normal location.

Problem solved.

Seriously, no one except an unregenerate liturgical nazi can object to this simple and most pastoral solution to what otherwise could be-come an ugly and divisive situation.

We would urge our readers to distribute this modest proposal to asmany bishops, priests, parishes, and parishioners as they are able.

A. J. Matt Jr.

Editor, The Wanderer

[sinkspur]

Trashing people for praticing their faith?

You know very well that's not the point of what I was saying, and anyone who reads this thread knows that, but it serves your purposes to try to reflect badly on me. JNB, I've had better men than you question my faith, my commitment to the 2nd amendment (me, with six handguns), and even my respect for the police--all within the last week. So accusing me of being "bitter" is like getting a finger wag from a church lady. Your purpose in any post to me is to attack me. I know that, but, as I said, you're in the minor leagues when it comes to scurrilousness.

Again I will restate sinkspur, the restoration movment is not going away, a universal indult or a quasi rite will not make them go away, and they are gaining strenth as the years go on.

As to gaining strength, we'll see.

The "restoration movement" will do what it will. I will not participate, as I will be attending my Novus Ordo mass every Sunday and Holy Day and the occasional weekday. I also don't expect the "restoration movement" to have much effect in my parish or in those around mine.

[Desdemona]

This is not practical in many suburban parishes.

What on earth does practicality have to do with it? The Faith is NOT practical. It is NOT convenient. It is. You just do it.

[Desdemona]

They've already BEEN renovated.

If it's been done once, it can be done again. None of this substituting "can't" for "I don't want to."

[sinkspur]

Seriously, no one except an unregenerate liturgical nazi can object to this simple and most pastoral solution to what otherwise could be-come an ugly and divisive situation.

Only the Wanderer, and Al Matt, would think to use the word "nazi" in connection with those who observe the Novus Ordo rubrics.

In parishes where there is a strong wish on the part of some Catholics to receive kneeling, then, by all means, stick a pre-dieu at one of the stations served by a Eucharistic Minister.

Problem solved!

[Loyalist]

Seriously, no one except an unregenerate liturgical nazi can object to this simple and most pastoral solution to what otherwise could be-come an ugly and divisive situation.

These people will go to great lengths to protect their privileged positions. Anything they can do to sabotage a restoration of reverent worship and orthodox catechesis, they will do. And they have many powerful weapons at their disposal.

[Desdemona]

Gregorian chant is too difficult to sing.

Whew! I thought you were serious. There's nothing easier to sing than chant. Trust me on this. I just tried to sight-read Stravinsky.

[Loyalist]

In parishes where there is a strong wish on the part of some Catholics to receive kneeling, then, by all means, stick a pre-dieu at one of the stations served by a Eucharistic Minister.

And following on my most recent comment, here's but a small example of the tactics they'll use!

[Desdemona]

What "truth"? That the Tridentine Mass was normative for five hundred years, but that the Novus Ordo is now?

An abomination? An embarassment? Really badly written? Way too touchy feely?