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My friend is seriously considering suicide. Is it ALWAYS wrong?
may 31, 2003 | tame

Posted on 05/31/2003 10:42:16 AM PDT by tame

I have a friend who is very seriously considering suicide. This friend is not interested in pity, but rather truly believes that a greater good could be served by his "withdrawel" from this life. He is almost "clinical" in his consideration of the decision.

While he believes suicide is morally wrong in many circumstances, he believes that it is the optimal moral choice in rare circumstances such as his. He is a Christian and he believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out".

His principle for this greater good of suicide is drawn from 1 Corinthians chapter 5 where Paul indicated it was better for a certain man to be handed over to Satan that his flesh may be destroyed but his soul saved in the day of judgement.

Now, I realize the immediate outcry most of you will voice against suicide, but on further contemplation is suicide always wrong without exception? What say you?


TOPICS: Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: christianliberty; suicide
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Please don't shoot from the hip with emotional answers, but think of his theological basis, and then share your thoughts.
1 posted on 05/31/2003 10:42:16 AM PDT by tame
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; drstevej; P-Marlowe; Delphinium; Polycarp; restornu; Illbay
Any insight on this?
2 posted on 05/31/2003 10:53:57 AM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: Aquinasfan; MHGinTN
How do you feel about this?
3 posted on 05/31/2003 10:56:16 AM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: tame
Doesn't seem like your friend is thinking rationally so a logical, theological resonse to him may fall on deaf ears.

Thou shall not kill is both clear and applicable to him. 1 Corinthians 5 delivers the person to Satan not himself. Satancide and suicide are not the same except in a mind bent on rationalization.

Get your friend to competent medical and spiritual help. Use whatever leverage of friendship and relationship you have. You may not be successful but it is clearly worth the effort. Offer to go with the person or take the person.

Am praying for you both.
4 posted on 05/31/2003 11:02:50 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: tame
Suicide is always a moral wrong. Unless you stretch the definition of suicide, such as say laying down your life for a friend in some way. But killing yourself for a reason like "I'd be better off dead" or "The world would be better without me" is as far from moral as you can get.
5 posted on 05/31/2003 11:10:37 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: tame; JesseShurun; Law; drstevej; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Wrigley; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; ...
If your friend is a Christian, he must believe that sunny days, children's laughter, good health and love are all gifts from almighty God.

Your friend should also recognize that suffering, remorse and regret are also from God.

We were created for His glory; not our own. If it pleases God to have us stumble openly, with all the attendant shame and hurt, then it is because God wants to use us as an example of His power to stand up again and be healed by His love.

Your friend should know he has only two choices -- obey God and live, or deny God and die, eternally lost.

6 posted on 05/31/2003 11:16:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: tame
I will refrain from offering my 'theological' perspective, but I would share with your friend that suicide will end the relationship you have with your friend and that is a tragedy for you (that your friend might want to consider if really a friend) and that a life being lived is so much more than we first perceive or choose to perceive when in a selfish shell (and that is what is necessary for even a mentally ill person to commit suicide). If it were my friend, I would plead with them on the grounds of our friendship and the diminshment I will suffer as I remain alive missing my friend, whereas the friend has gone away purposely, ending our friendship with their selfish act. But know this, suicide is not a rational behavior, and loneliness can occur even in a crowded environment. Be closer to your friend, if you can, to ride this out to the other side of this depression.
7 posted on 05/31/2003 11:17:18 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: tame
Also, let me add that your friend gives the reason that he feels he's brought shame to God and His Church. Well, theologically speaking, this totally ignores the idea of redemption in Christianity. I dunno if it's just a Catholic idea, with Confession and Last Rites and all, but seriously, if you read the New Testament you see quite a few examples of people who brought shame to themselves, God, and the Church who were redeemed. St. Mary Magdalene, St. Peter, St. Paul and St. Matthew are just four I can think of off the top of my head.
8 posted on 05/31/2003 11:25:23 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: tame
I corinthians 5 is about how to deal with scandelous sin in t he church. The "handing over to Satan", I think, refers to explusion of the sinner from said church to both preserve the church's integrity as Christ's body in the eyes of the world, and to serve the good of the offending member by illustrating in human terms the certain separation God's holiness [expressed in His church] has from sin. BUT, that said, the purpose of this separation is not to produce dispair [esp. to the extent of suicide] on the part of the sinner, but to produce sorrow leading to repentence [2 Cor 2:5-11].

2 Cor 4:7-15 -- it discribes the believer's fight with sin just as much as his fight with the world; hard-pressed by temptation, perplexed by our remaining corruption, persecuted by guilt, struck down by failure, but not losing heart. "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory".

I've gone on too long, hope I was helpful. in Him,-john
9 posted on 05/31/2003 11:37:54 AM PDT by John_burchett
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To: tame
to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom himself if he simply "checked out".

Now, he can choose to be a coward, or face life like a man. Does he want to risk finding out that God isn't going to fall for his lame pity plea if he chooses to simply "check out"? It's a one-way ticket, after all. He should choose wisely and let God decide how he should live this life. If lightening strikes, so be it. He needs to get off his narcissistic soapbox instead of rationalizing irresponsible behavior.

His life may stink and he's ashamed for some bad behavior, but at least he knows what he's got. Is he sure that when he "checks out", God will "understand" like your average liberal? Or will he get a view of say, all the grieving people he's left behind (he'd be surprised), with no way to make amends, with nothing but a one-way ticket to the outer darkness for being such a selfish moron?

If he's as "clinical" as you say, he needs to do some serious risk-assessment here. He can start this way: instead of reading Scripture in order to justify suicide, he should read it plainly without a preconceived agenda, to see what God wants to say to him.

10 posted on 05/31/2003 11:41:00 AM PDT by Thinkin' Gal (Guten Tag!)
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To: tame
He is a Christian and he believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out".

First let me stress that I pray for Peace of mind to your Friend.

secondly, What sin could G-d possibly not forgive? What is "shame" exactly? embarrassment? guilt? broken Pride? I believe all of us have Tests so to say. I don't believe it possible that we are always suppose to "pass" tests, but more so figure how to deal with when we fail. Sometimes I believe people rely upon to much on their "religion" and doctrine instead of their personal walk with G-d. It matters not what any man say's or thinks but what's more the condition of ones heart and humbleness to G-d.

I say this, G-d does give us "free choice" it is up to us to walk sometimes the almost impossible road to take responsibility and face the consequences, to accept our wrong doings and with G-ds love and guidance to fix it. In my opinion I believe that suicide is the easy way out. There is no justification due to shame. G-d gave one the Gift of life, it is up to him when our time is up.

This being said, I do not believe that G-d will give us more then we can handle.

11 posted on 05/31/2003 11:44:14 AM PDT by Japedo (Live Free or Die Trying)
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To: tame
Life is a Gift!

There is a purpose for each of us being here!

Conscience is from God!

Despair is from the Devil!

From the time we are born which bring joy to those around and like in the Movie "Its A Wonderful Life!" in our own life we could never know all of the positive effects we had on those who passed our way!

To TOP one self is selish!It is better to serve your time here on this side!

"You can Not escape Universal Law!" Jesus Christ died to satified the Law and paid the ransom!"

There is forgiveness and the focus should be our relationship with the Lord!

we must for give ourselves after an earnest repentance, if we do NOT than we allow the devil to dictate! It is better to serve your time here on this side!

Suicide is a by product of the devil!

12 posted on 05/31/2003 12:40:50 PM PDT by restornu (Creation is never totally original it is always a combination of prior realities!)
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To: tame
It would be a sin against God to take one's life. It is after all, self murder. Your friend needs to go to God with all of his thoughts and plead for the strength to get through this time in his life. There is a reason for the hills and there's a reason for the valleys, and in the valley, he needs to remember Psalm 23.
13 posted on 05/31/2003 12:44:03 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke)
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To: tame
You will no doubt hear a wide variety of answers, but here is my 0.2 cents.

They Bible clearly states there is only one unpardonable sin, and this ain't it.

I believe a mental illness can affect a Christian to the point that they might commit suicide. Some will say that is nonsense, but we know that we are not immune to physical ailments, and true mental illness has a physiologic basis. If a true Christian has a true mental illness and commits suicide, I think they will enter the Kingdom.

Now, if your friend has shared this with you, I think you have a serious responsibility to discuss it with his family physician, pastor, or someone who can intervene on his behalf. Do not subject yourself to a lifetime of guilt because you are worried about betraying the confidence of a friend.

If by some chance you are talking about yourself, please seek help now.

A better question might be, is he truly saved? If someone commits suicide to avoid shame, humiliation, etc, I wonder if they are truely walking with the Lord.
14 posted on 05/31/2003 12:46:21 PM PDT by Gamecock (Presbyterian Church in America: Intolerant since 1983!)
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To: tame
Suicide is a sin because it represents complete lack of faith. Faith requires trust that any trial you are encountering is under God's control. Job was told by his wife to curse God and commit suicide. Are your trials your friend experiencing worse than Job's?

Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek." Meekness means accepting what God sends your way without complaint or rebellion. That includes trials. It's not an easy character trait to develop, but then that's why they are blessed.
15 posted on 05/31/2003 2:28:35 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: aimhigh
Are your trials your friend experiencing worse than Job's?

Job was a righteous man, whereas this person has brought disrepute to God, his family, friends, etc. So in that sense he may think his trials are worse?

16 posted on 05/31/2003 8:17:43 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: Gamecock
If by some chance you are talking about yourself, please seek help now.

Hey, hey, hey--don't jump to such concluions. Thanks for your insights.

17 posted on 05/31/2003 8:19:26 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: tame
Not jumping to any conclusions, just trying to be comprehensive......
18 posted on 05/31/2003 8:21:19 PM PDT by Gamecock (Presbyterian Church in America: Intolerant since 1983!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
obey God and live, or deny God and die, eternally lost.

I certainly agree with you that he should obey God and live, but I don't think he would be eternally lost. He doesn't think so either.

19 posted on 05/31/2003 8:21:33 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: aimhigh
Suicide is a sin

His argument is that suicide is , but in his case he would be observing a "greater good" as per Paul handing the man over to Satan in 1 Corinthians 5 so his flesh me be destroyed but his soul. Saved. In other words, he argues that Paul's implication was that a Christian who is sooooo deep in problems (although not the kind of the man in 1 Corinthians 5) is better off dead than to bring disrepute to God's kingdom.

20 posted on 05/31/2003 8:26:27 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: Gamecock
Not jumping to any conclusions, just trying to be comprehensive......

I understand.

21 posted on 05/31/2003 8:27:39 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: drstevej
Am praying for you both.

Thanks, Dr, it's very much apreciated and needed.

22 posted on 05/31/2003 8:29:01 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: tame
BTW, I like your homepage....
23 posted on 05/31/2003 8:30:48 PM PDT by Gamecock (Presbyterian Church in America: Intolerant since 1983!)
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To: Conservative til I die
"I'd be better off dead"

But the problem is he really believes that not only would he be better off, but so would his loved ones and God'd Kingdom.

24 posted on 05/31/2003 8:30:58 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: Gamecock
BTW, I like your homepage....

Thank you :0)

25 posted on 05/31/2003 8:31:47 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: MHGinTN
If it were my friend, I would plead with them on the grounds of our friendship and the diminshment I will suffer as I remain alive missing my friend, whereas the friend has gone away purposely, ending our friendship with their selfish act.

He argues that even if apparently selfish, it would truly benefit all involved in the long run. I'm deperately hoping he somehow get's a hold of the situation and bring good out of it. But he's almost unable to take care of basic responsiblities in life. Even making and keeping an appointment with a counselor seems insurmountable.

26 posted on 05/31/2003 8:45:09 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: John_burchett
I've gone on too long, hope I was helpful. in Him,-john

No problem! Much appreciated :o)

27 posted on 05/31/2003 8:48:14 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: Japedo
In my opinion I believe that suicide is the easy way out. There is no justification due to shame. G-d gave one the Gift of life, it is up to him when our time is up.

This being said, I do not believe that G-d will give us more then we can handle.

Much appreciated!

28 posted on 05/31/2003 8:50:48 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: JesseShurun; restornu; Gamecock
Thank you all for your input. Yes, JesseShurum, the guy is saved.

From the time we are born which bring joy to those around and like in the Movie "Its A Wonderful Life!" in our own life we could never know all of the positive effects we had on those who passed our way!

That's a great movie, restornu, and it sure does bring perspective!

29 posted on 05/31/2003 8:54:12 PM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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To: tame; drstevej
This friend is not interested in pity, but rather truly believes that a greater good could be served by his "withdrawel" from this life. He is almost "clinical" in his consideration of the decision.

The greatest good, that of exalting Jesus Christ and making disciples of all nations, is best served by the witness and testimony of transformed lives.

For your friend to take his own life serves no purpose. True believers will know your friend denied Christ's forgiveness and His healing, transformative power. Non-believers will scoff and conclude your friend was another misguided person who placed his happiness on the empty promises of religion.

On the other hand, your friend should consider what a powerfull testimony he could give on Christ's forgiveness and healing in his own life. Further, God may have allowed these trials into your friend's life so that your friend, somewhere down the road, can be an encouraging counselor to other troubled souls to whom only he can relate and demonstrate to them that Jesus can help them as well.

As DrSteveJ said, your friend needs immediate competent spiritual and medical help. He can be an example of an overcomer in Christ, or a succumber in the world. Which serves God better?

30 posted on 05/31/2003 9:05:50 PM PDT by Starwind
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To: tame
We do not belong to ourselves; we belong to God. To kill one's self is the exact same thing as killing another human being.

Would you condone killing someone else because they brought shame to themselves, their loved ones or to God? I doubt it.

Suicide is the ultimate manipulative, passive-aggressive ego-trip. Anyone contemplating it should have no illusions they are doing it for some "greater good." Suicide scars everyone left behind. It is a selfish act of unbearable cruelty.

Your friend should find a minister or a competent therapist who can help him get through this moment of terror. It is only temporary. Anyone who doubts that has not lived long enough to know that nothing lasts forever but God.

31 posted on 05/31/2003 9:07:38 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: tame
God gave life. It's His decision when it is to be taken. Anybody who takes their own life, fundamentally is committing a final act before the first death in rebllion to God's will.

Note that the situation might appear to be one of human good, but without Christ and performing in God's will through Christ, human good falls short of Divine Good.

When placed before judgment, the 'good works' will be judged but found to be good for nothing if not cleansed by righteousness only available via Christ.

Tell your friend to read Job. There are many situations where our struggle might simply be a testimony before the heavenlies for the Angelic Conflict to witness as evidencery testing of the consequences of His will being obeyed.

Note that Satan, is appealing the judgment already rendered upon him and the fallen angels. He seeks to present ANY counterfeit system or alternate system to God's will as a plausible way to successfully rule the universe. The history of man has been cast before the heavenlies as a mystery to the angels, as if you will, a testimony regarding the justness and appropriateness of God's will in His judgment. Satan and the fallen angels seek to demonstrate any plausible method which counters God's will as a plausible method to rule the universe as an alternate to God's will, in order to give cause in an appeal to overturn their condemnation.

Within this appeals court, man, like the angels has volition, but unlike the angels wasn't afforded eternal life until we accept God on His terms. Man's judgment comes later, while that of fallen angels has already occurred.

The meat of this issue, is that ANY thought or action independent of God's will, falls as an argument in support of Satan's proposal that his cosmic system is a viable alternate to God's will.

Have faith in Him, Jesus Christ and persevere through all things. No matter what the trial, there is no temptation to great than that which may be resisted.

For every curse there is a blessing for those who persevere in Him. Perhaps not now, but maybe even a greater reward in heaven.

Read Job and consider that man isn't always in the position to know these things and when that happens, all the more reason to have faith in Him that the trial is one of importance to those in the heavenlies.

Our struggle is not with flesh and blood, but with the authorities, powers, and principalities.

Remain in Him and there will be no wrong path. Suicide is not an appropriate option.
32 posted on 05/31/2003 9:07:57 PM PDT by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: tame
tame,I would tell your friend that their is so much work for God to be done.So many around us are in sin but we see only ours.Be with people who hold you up or move on and most important always get advice from a spiritual director before you do anything-I have phone #'so just ask-all confidential.
I care about your friend and will pray.
33 posted on 05/31/2003 10:05:58 PM PDT by fatima (Go Karen,Look at all these's prayers.For all our troops,we love you.)
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To: tame
just a couple of questions:

1)What can you do about this situation?
2)What do you think you should do about this situation?

It appears that the whole spectrum of theology has been presented before you this early morning, it has not been run before your friend. IMO, it seems as if you have to act upon what you have heard as best as you believe God would enable you to.

Sorry, if you're looking for a "magic answer" i don't have it for you, and i am just as inadequate in that as you or anyone else. Remember the old Calvinist mantra, "Love God and do what you will". Think about it.

34 posted on 05/31/2003 10:48:15 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (" I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum!" -Roddy Piper)
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To: tame
Here are the references from The Catechism of the Catholic Church on suicide.

I am not a counselor or anything like that. But if you are indeed close to this person, try to get them to talk about their problems and then ask them what alternative solutions they might come up with.

35 posted on 05/31/2003 11:01:58 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: tame
**this person has brought disrepute to God, his family, friends, etc. So in that sense he may think his trials are worse?**

But these can be forgiven. Has he talked to a priest?

36 posted on 05/31/2003 11:05:30 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: tame
Can he cope with the next 5 minutes? The next five second?

When my husband died, that was all I could do sometimes.

The Serenity Prayer

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Amen.
37 posted on 05/31/2003 11:10:44 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Your friend should know he has only two choices -- obey God and live, or deny God and die, eternally lost.

Amen!

All men do indeed have two choices!

38 posted on 06/01/2003 12:02:09 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; tame; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Hi FTD.

I like Calvinist_Dark_Lord's "Calvinist mantra" in post #34...

"Love God and do what you will."

39 posted on 06/01/2003 12:46:46 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: tame
You say the guy is saved... but does a saved person succumb to despair? And why does he not believe that God will forgive your friend for anything if he is truly repentant?

Aside of this guy having a crisis of faith, it sounds like he needs some sort of Christian psychiatrist.

I mean no offense, but it seems to me that your friend would bring more shame on God, his family and his church (this I don't understand... does he put his faith in his church?) if he as he says, "checked out" -- this is a lack of faith.

40 posted on 06/01/2003 12:49:25 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
How are doing!

like Calvinist_Dark_Lord's "Calvinist mantra" in post #34... "Love God and do what you will."

I think that is something that the old time Calvinists, Methodists and Baptists could all agree on! (Phil.2:13) :>)

41 posted on 06/01/2003 12:52:25 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
Something we all agree on. That's worth noting. 8~)

An early morning good-night to you this first day of June.

42 posted on 06/01/2003 1:01:27 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: tame
His principle for this greater good of suicide is drawn from 1 Corinthians chapter 5 where Paul indicated it was better for a certain man to be handed over to Satan that his flesh may be destroyed but his soul saved in the day of judgement.

That man repented and did not commit sucide.

In fact, Paul then tells the church to forgive him and bring him back less he be swallowed up in sorrow (2Cor.2:6-7)

Now, I realize the immediate outcry most of you will voice against suicide, but on further contemplation is suicide always wrong without exception? What say you?

The only case where I can think of where a suicide was 'justified' was in the case of Samson.

That suicide was really a type of dying in battle and taking the enemy with you, a very rare case.

If your friends problem are that of the 1Cor. 5 issue, then suicide is not the answer, getting right with God is (1Jn.1:9, 1Cor.11:31)

43 posted on 06/01/2003 1:03:40 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Something we all agree on. That's worth noting. 8~) An early morning good-night to you this first day of June.

Amen!

44 posted on 06/01/2003 1:06:37 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: tame; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg; the_doc; drstevej; RnMomof7
I have a friend who is very seriously considering suicide. This friend is not interested in pity, but rather truly believes that a greater good could be served by his "withdrawal" from this life. He is almost "clinical" in his consideration of the decision.

While he believes suicide is morally wrong in many circumstances, he believes that it is the optimal moral choice in rare circumstances such as his. He is a Christian and he believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out".

Here's my take on it... join the f*cking crowd, kemosabe.

Forget about the Shame you have brought to your "family" and your "Church"... If any of us truly understood the horrific Shame we have brought against God, the Violation of His Image we have wrought by our every Sin (not just the "Big Sins"), we'd probably wanna put a bullet in our brain.

Which is exactly why Christ died. If you wanna "die on your own behalf", or "save Face for the Kingdom", you're almost pissing ingratitude upon His sacrifice "who became Sin for you" (In fact, you are).

Christ became Sin for Us. Suicide ain't "noble", it doesn't "save Face"... it's a form of INGRATITUDE against the Sacrifice of Christ, "who became Sin for us".

It ain't possible to "pay Jesus back" for the Perfect Atonement which He has worked on your behalf... but you can spend a Life-time in servitude to Him, at the very least.

If you choose to cut that Life-time short -- if you choose, in short, to tell Jesus to go piss up a rope -- I don't know whether or not that endangers your Eternal Salvation. I do know it's just plain ungrateful for the Sacrifice which He has wrought.

Don't particularly like "who you are"? Neither does anyone who knows himself to be... a Sinner.

But at least, if we don't take the easy "short-cut" outta here, we can serve Him for the rest of our days.

He believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out" ~~ oh, cry me a river. I know formerly-excommunicated OPC Elders, guilty of Adultery, who sweltered under Church Discipline for nearly five years before they were restored to Participation in Fellowship and Communion.

Suicide ain't the "easy way out", it's just plain ingratitude. When Christians screw up -- as we surely will, as we surely will -- we don't take the "easy way" out.

We desperately cling to the healing robe of Christ, and we do our Duty. That's Christianity.


45 posted on 06/01/2003 1:41:36 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty)
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To: tame
tame,

1. You friend, is arguing that the sin of suicide is a
"greater good", is going directly against St. Paul who
tells us the we may not do evil that good may abound.

2. in I Cor. handing the man over to Satan wa dis-
fellowshipping that (accordig to II Cor) led to
repentance and restoration. There is no repentance
from suicide.

3. The reason your friend feels so strongly is shame and
this shame is based of *pride*, not righteousness.

4. The feeling that one has sinned too much to be forgiven
is itself the sin of *despair* (I'm talking about the
*attitude*, not the emotion). God is never glorified
by despair.

5. That despair heaps insult on the Gospel and thus on
Christ because makes your friends sin greater than
Christ's sacrifice.

Can you let us know his first name for prayer???

Paul (aka Newberger)
46 posted on 06/01/2003 2:16:13 AM PDT by newberger
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To: tame
Job was a righteous man, whereas this person has brought disrepute to God, his family, friends, etc. So in that sense he may think his trials are worse?

This is true of *anyone* who sins in view of others (most of us). God can only be glorified, here, by repentance, healing and transformation. Suicide brings great shame on the church because it proclaims to the world that the gospel and the church have failed your friend!

Tame, if your are that person. PLEASE! seek help. Remove the shame by letting God change you.

Paul (aka Newberger)

47 posted on 06/01/2003 2:25:49 AM PDT by newberger
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To: tame
I certainly agree with you that he should obey God and live, but I don't think he would be eternally lost. He doesn't think so either.

What a gamble! What high stakes!

There is no promise in scripture that I can see that backs this up.

Paul

48 posted on 06/01/2003 2:29:48 AM PDT by newberger
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To: tame
He argues that even if apparently selfish, it would truly benefit all involved in the long run. I'm deperately hoping he somehow get's a hold of the situation and bring good out of it. But he's almost unable to take care of basic responsiblities in life. Even making and keeping an appointment with a counselor seems insurmountable.

Then all this argument is a waste of time.

He needs hospitalization NOW. Arguing, even if you have the best arguments is feeding his self-pity and depression.

He is using the appearance of logic to justify his actions when thay are sourced in self-centered despair from depression.

Drive him to his counselor, yourself.

49 posted on 06/01/2003 2:38:03 AM PDT by newberger
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Thinkin' Gal
Please don't take this wrong, as I'm sure not trying to be provocative. Although I understand and agree with much of what you wrote, the manner in which it was written would tend to push him further toward the choice of "checking out" because he would be angry, when he gets angry he tends to get more "foggy" in his perception, and he starts to feel even moe hopeless.
50 posted on 06/01/2003 4:09:10 AM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)
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