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Criticizing Pope John Paul II
The Wanderer Press ^ | May 10, 2003 | JOHN YOUNG

Posted on 06/06/2003 12:25:21 PM PDT by NYer

  Criticizing Pope John Paul II

By JOHN YOUNG

  That Pope John Paul II should get a barrage of criticism from modernists is only to be expected. But he also comes in for unsparing criticism from so-called traditionalists; and that is what I want to discuss here.

  It is not that they recognize his great achievements, but think that an occasional statement or practical decision is wrong. The people I am referring to seem to go through papal statements in search of errors and scrutinize the Pope’s activities for inappropriate or imprudent actions.

  Here is a man who has fearlessly and devotedly promoted the truth for almost a quarter of a century as Vicar of Christ, who despite illnesses in recent years that would have forced most people into retirement has kept up a pace most fit individuals half his age would find daunting. He draws crowds of millions; he is listened to by young people all over the world. He is today’s great outstanding moral teacher, and seen as such by multitudes, including those of other faiths or none.

  Ignoring all this, the critics I am speaking of look for anything they can regard as a weakness or error, then publicly condemn it. Even if they were right about the matters complained of, they would be wrong in the lack of balance shown. But that lack of balance should alert us to the bias with which they approach John Paul, and warn us that their alleged statements of fact may be nothing of the sort.

  Take criticisms of the gathering of religions at Assisi, organized by the Pope. Horror is expressed at his alleged encouragement of Hindus, Buddhists, and others to pray to pagan gods. But that is not what he did. Certainly he encouraged them to pray. God is open to all sincere prayer, even though those praying may have confused and erroneous notions of who God is. Nor did the Pope join in prayer with them, as is sometimes insinuated. The groups prayed separately.

  John Paul is also charged with contradicting his Predecessors on the place of St. Thomas Aquinas’ philosophy. He is supposed to have implied, in his encyclical Faith and Reason (n. 49), that the Church has no preferred philosophy. This would contradict previous Popes, including Pius XI’s statement in Studiorum Ducem, that "as innumerable documents of every kind attest, the Church has adopted his [St.
Thomas’] philosophy as her own" (AAS 15 [1923], 314).

  In fact, John Paul’s sentence is badly translated in the English version of Faith and Reason. The encyclical highly praises St. Thomas in several places, including an endorsement of Leo XIII’s "insistence upon the incomparable value of the philosophy of St. Thomas" (n. 57).

  The Pope is also taken to task for saying, in his general audience of July 28, 1999, that Hell is not a place. But what he actually said is that Hell is "more than a place." (This is pointed out in a "Faith Fact" published by Catholics United for the Faith, and quoted by James Drummey in his Wanderer column, Catholic Replies.) The English translation of the Pope’s address rendered the Italian as "rather than a place," instead of the accurate "more than a place."

  Even had he said it is not a place, surely he should be understood to be highlighting what it is essentially (and the same applies to his similar remarks about Heaven). Instead the carping critics seize on sentences without regard for the context, don’t trouble to check the original, then complain that the Pope is wrong.

  What is the right approach if the Pope seems to be wrong? Well, first one must get the facts straight. In the case of a happening, such as the Assisi meetings of religions, what did he actually do and say? What was the intention of the gathering? Regarding statements that seem inaccurate, is the fault in the translation? Does the context throw light on the meaning?

  Secondly, a clear distinction must be made between doctrine and practices. The influence of the Holy Spirit in preventing the Pope from teaching error in faith or morals is in a different category from the help given him in practical decisions. There is no guarantee that he will act in the best way when dealing with administrative matters or in practical decisions relating to ecumenical activities or in dealing with dissident theologians. In these areas mistakes may occur due to inadequate information, personal psychological weaknesses of the Pope, and other causes.

  A good example, in my opinion, is the way Paul VI handled (or failed to handle) the controversy about contraception. There was never any possibility of the traditional doctrine being reversed, yet Paul VI took several years to make his definitive statement, and in the meantime left the impression that a change might be imminent. After his clear and beautiful teaching in Humanae Vitae, he rarely referred to the matter again in the remaining ten years of his pontificate, and failed to act decisively against the multitude of dissenters who rebelled against him.

  Should we, then, feel free to criticize the Pope in his practical procedures regarding such things as ecumenical approaches or tolerance of unorthodox theologians? While these matters are clearly in a different category from teachings on faith and morals, and don’t require the same allegiance from us, there is need for great caution before disagreeing.

  A point to remember (and which so-called traditionalists often ignore) is that John Paul may be right and his Predecessors wrong on a particular issue of this kind. Also, practical measures that worked in the past may not be effective now because of changed circumstances or a change in the general outlook. Perhaps this would apply in the question of whether the Church should have an index of banned books; possibly it was prudent in the past but would be so blatantly flouted today that it would do more harm than good.

  Several factors need to be kept in mind if we are inclined to think we are right and John Paul II is wrong. One is his vast knowledge, derived from a lifetime of varied experiences, including years under Nazism and then Marxism. As Pope he has met and talked to more people, and of more diverse views, than almost anyone else on earth. He has better sources of information than we have.

  A second consideration is his evident holiness. While we can’t see into another person’s soul, there is every indication that John Paul is a saint. The spiritual insight of a saint, endowed as he is with supernatural virtue in a high degree and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, gives him a prudence and wisdom far exceeding what most of us are capable of.

  Also, he has the grace of state proper to his high office as Vicar of Christ. This is a divine help appropriate to his vocation. We can be confident, in view of his holiness, that he will not resist that grace.

  Putting all that together — almost unparalleled experience, saintly wisdom, a ready response to the grace of state offered him by God — we should be extremely reluctant to suppose we know better than he does what Christ wants for His Church.

  There is also the need for us to avoid scandal. Those who complain about the alleged scandal given by the Pope with the Assisi gathering of religions should ask themselves whether they give scandal with their readiness to condemn his actions. Will this stance lead other people to question papal authority? Will it tend to make them skeptical about pronouncements from Rome? Will it encourage them to see Vatican II as a major disaster? Will it weaken the allegiance of young people to the Church?

  Finally, the critics I am speaking of should ask themselves whether they, not the Pope, have a warped view. It is so easy for justified concern about the aberrations in Catholic affairs to cause an overreaction, with suspicion of quite legitimate changes. It must never be forgotten that Satan, who loves to provoke division, can appear as an angel of light and lead us astray.

+    +    +

  (John Young is a graduate of the Aquinas Academy in Sydney, Australia, and has taught philosophy at the Vincentian Seminary in Eastwood, Australia. He is a frequent contributor to The Wanderer on theological issues.)

 


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholicchurch; modernists; pope; traditionalists; vatican
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Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II prays during a Beatification mass for Sister Marija Petkovic at the old port in Dubrovnik, Croatia June 6, 2003. The 83-year-old Pope, visiting one of the most famous cities on the Adriatic, put a Croatian nun on the road to sainthood on Friday and paid tribute to the woman who suffered in the war that tore apart Yugoslavia. REUTERS/Dylan Martinez

1 posted on 06/06/2003 12:25:21 PM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; livius; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...

Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II passes children in the center of Dubrovnik, Friday June 6, 2003. Pope John Paul II, the most traveled pope in history, is paying a five-day visit to Croatia.

* * *

He said the mass in Croatian!!! WITHOUT glasses!!! 83 years old!

Happy Birthday, Holy Father

2 posted on 06/06/2003 12:28:39 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Loyalist
Pinging the "schismatic orcs." ;-)
3 posted on 06/06/2003 1:01:07 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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To: Pyro7480; Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; Bellarmine; BlackElk; ...
Pinging the Rome clones!
4 posted on 06/06/2003 1:13:19 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: NYer
Here is a man who has fearlessly and devotedly promoted the truth for almost a quarter of a century

Of course the author doesn't substaniate this.

there is every indication that John Paul is a saint.

Why doesn't the author list these indications.

This article is all about hero-worship.

5 posted on 06/06/2003 1:22:29 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: NYer
Even if they were right about the matters complained of, they would be wrong in the lack of balance shown. But that lack of balance should alert us to the bias with which they approach John Paul, and warn us that their alleged statements of fact may be nothing of the sort.

Here is the crux of the matter. One item here or there wouldn't make the pope a heretic. It's not a question of searching for typos or supposed mis-translations. (BTW, he really did say "hell is a state rather than a place." That's the meaning of the phrase he used. "More than" would be an overly-literal translation.) But what is the legacy of this pope, on balance?

Here is where we see writers like this author demonstrating an incredible amount of the bias of which they accuse others. Any objective analysis is going to compare the Church of 1978 to the Church of today, rather than focus on JPII's rock-star persona which is irrelevant at best, and a scandal at worst.

Objectively looking at the situation today, we see that JPII inherited a Church in crisis -- one that was doing badly and getting worse. Since that time he has 100% stayed the course and refused to make any significant changes in the Vatican II program. All of the vaunted talk of renewal has been just that, talk. There is no reality to it.

Those who think that he is somehow more conservative than his predecessor must have never lived during the pontificate of Paul VI. Paul VI was supposedly Mr. Arch-Conservative during the time that he was alive. It is only in retrospect that he's considered a liberal. For decades he was called the conservative alter-ego to John XXIII's liberal. But now in the hindsight of history, John XXIII may have been more conservative than either Paul VI or JPII.

So on balance we have seen 25 years in which the growing crisis in the Church has deteriorated steadily and there has been no leadership from the Vatican to correct the problems.

A point to remember (and which so-called traditionalists often ignore) is that John Paul may be right and his Predecessors wrong on a particular issue of this kind.

I'm sorry but this is not the way the Church works. I cannot recall a single incident prior to Vatican II in which a pope came out and said, "I'm right and my predecessors were wrong." This is nothing but a prescription for anarchy. Once you admit this principle, then there is no longer any established doctrine in the Church. Each pope would be free to create his own religion.

6 posted on 06/06/2003 1:40:18 PM PDT by Maximilian
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: Aloysius
I was about to point out the same.
Also I'm going to look up that quote in Italian and see what it says. If I find it I'll post the original.

Thanks for the ping.
8 posted on 06/06/2003 1:47:21 PM PDT by Ippolita (Si vis pacem para bellum)
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To: Maximilian; sandyeggo
we have seen 25 years in which the growing crisis in the Church has deteriorated steadily

On April 3, 2000 the Holy See released an annual statistical summary of the world's Catholic population. It shows an increase in the number of Catholics globally, with a slightly higher growth rate than in the overall world population.

There were 17.4 baptized Catholics for every 100 people in the world by the end of 1998. (About 1.04 billion Catholics).

World Catholics by Location:

Nearly 1/2 of the world's Catholics live in the Western Hemisphere 
30 % in Latin America 
15 % in North America 
30 % in Europe 
12 % in Africa 
Asia, the most populous continent, boasts only 12 % with most of those Catholics in Southeast Asia. 
1 % Oceania 
Since 1978, Europe has fewer Catholics, Africa and Asia more. 

# of Catholic Bishops:
Large Increase 4,439 up from 3,714 in 1978. Greatest increases in Africa.

# of Priests Worldwide:
Declined from 420,971 in 1978 to 404,626 today, especially high in Europe and North America.

# of Religious Order Priests:
Declined from 158,486 in 1978 to 140,424 today

# of Diocesan Priests:
Increased slightly 264,202 from 262,485 in 1978, with lively growth in vocations in Africa.

The decline in the number of priests may soon reverse because more are studying for the priesthood.

# of Seminarians:
Increased to 109,171 from 62,670 in 1978. Again, the growth is most visible in Africa, with Latin America not too far behind.

Thank You Lord, for our Priests and Seminarians who have answered Your call.

9 posted on 06/06/2003 1:54:18 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Loyalist; Aloysius; NYer; exodus
Our author says:

"The Pope is also taken to task for saying, in his general audience of July 28, 1999, that Hell is not a place. But what he actually said is that Hell is "more than a place." (This is pointed out in a "Faith Fact" published by Catholics United for the Faith, and quoted by James Drummey in his Wanderer column, Catholic Replies.) The English translation of the Pope’s address rendered the Italian as "rather than a place," instead of the accurate "more than a place.""


The incriminated passage with context in the original Italian:

"Le immagini con cui la Sacra Scrittura ci presenta l’inferno devono essere rettamente interpretate. Esse indicano la completa frustrazione e vacuità di una vita senza Dio.
L’inferno sta ad indicare più che un luogo, la situazione in cui viene a trovarsi chi liberamente e definitivamente si allontana da Dio, sorgente di vita e di gioia."

Link to the Italian:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_it.html

Official Vatican translation into English:

"The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

Link to the English:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

My understanding of the Italian (which I am completely fluent in) is exactly as rendered in the Vatican translation to English - "more than" in this case cannot be used. The Italian does not mean "hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy, AS WELL AS A PLACE" which is what our author was implying.

Moreover JP2 continues:

"This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033)."

and further

"Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6)."


We critics may be harsh with JP2 (and I have confessed this sin often), but his 'supporters' tend to fall into the cheerleader frame of mind ending up with what looks like Hero-worship (as mentioned by Aloysius above).
10 posted on 06/06/2003 2:23:22 PM PDT by Ippolita (Si vis pacem para bellum)
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To: Ippolita; ninenot; Salvation; american colleen
più che un luogo

My understanding of the Italian (which I am completely fluent in)

I too am fluent in Italian. "più che un luogo" = "more than a place".

You are simply proving the author correct in his assertion that "traditionalists" pour over and scrutinize every word that is uttered by this pope. Shall we bring out the letters of Bishop Williamson who can't hold a candle to the light emanating from Pope John Paul II.

11 posted on 06/06/2003 2:34:04 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
What happened to all the rest of the context which gives the full sense?

What JP2 is saying is: "hell is a spiritual dimention 'more than a place'; and that is not going to mean 'as well as a place' (oltre che un posto) no matter what language you are fluent in.





12 posted on 06/06/2003 2:46:27 PM PDT by Ippolita (Si vis pacem para bellum)
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To: NYer; Romulus
I am knowledgeable enough in Italian to know that a literal translation (piu che = more than) is not necessarily how a concept is translated from one language into another.
13 posted on 06/06/2003 2:51:28 PM PDT by ELS
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To: Loyalist
Thanks. Now I have some things to share.

Finally, the critics I am speaking of should ask themselves whether they, not the Pope, have a warped view. It is so easy for justified concern about the aberrations in Catholic affairs to cause an overreaction, with suspicion of quite legitimate changes. It must never be forgotten that Satan, who loves to provoke division, can appear as an angel of light and lead us astray.

We should remember this paragraph whenever there is talk of "reconciliation", "universal indults", and similar topics. The break from Apostolic tradition is likened to Cain breaking from the rest of the first family to do things his way. Is this not how Lucifer operated? He said "non serviam" and eventually was thrown out of heaven.

The offering of Cain is similar to that found in the novus ordo, "the work of human hands". Abel's offering was that which God have given him. Much like at Mass, where Our Lord gives Himself as the sacrifice to God.

It's so easy to recite the post-conciliar party line, always talking about people overreacting to aberrations which are in reality un-Catholic values, teachings, devotions, practices, and beliefs. Some of us would be doing a great disservice here and everywhere else for not constantly pointing out that Lucifer already got his foot in the door - right there with the heretical documents of Vatican II and the illegal novus ordo service.

I've seen all sorts of innovations in the post-conciliar church to the point that I see at least one a day. From the coffee non-Mass and the pontoon non-Mass to the jazz, "black culture", Caribbean, and beach non-Masses, there's division over there that's multiplying like wild fire. And yet there are people who say we should put up with it. Why? Doesn't this attitude put more souls in danger?

When Church teaching condemned the very things the post-conciliar church promotes, you have to wonder why the pot is calling the kettle black. At least I've seen things on both sides of the fence long enough to know who really has the warped minds. God is not the author of confusion. Why do we have to be bound by ambiguous (if not outright heretical) post-conciliar documents? Is the Wanderer going to tell me I have a warped mind because I noticed there was there was something heretical found in an encyclical, namely, that the chalice of the new and everlasting covenant was shed "for you and for all"? It was written that way in Latin, and I when I saw it, I knew one thing. Manifest heretics can not possibly hold office. There's a likelihood someone is in the Vatican pretending to be someone he's not.

When it comes to doctrine, morals, and tradition, it's an all-or-nothing game. The Wanderer would do well to look at it that way for at least a day. If those columnists succeed in doing that one small task, there may be hope.

Faith, morals, Mass, and sacraments go hand-in-hand. Lex credendi, lex orandi dictates that we can not expect our methods of praying and worship to change without altering out beliefs (why do you think Luther and Cranmer "got their revolution on"?). I'm not about to give up what I just found several months ago just to get on some person's right side. And despite disagreements between traditional groups and even between people in a single group, the one big problem we all agree on is still standing. It would be a lot easier if these folks from the Wanderer as well as like-minded people would rise up and say "enough!" to modernism and "enough!" to innovation and novelty. Nothing good came of it, so it should be dumped. Until Rome does a complete 180-degree turn, the status quo will be maintained.

It would be nice to agree on all things regarding faith and morals for once. Maybe Matt, Likoudis, Gutierrez, Hand, and others could join in and do their part in the battle.

14 posted on 06/06/2003 3:23:34 PM PDT by huskyboy (Introibo ad altare Dei; non ad altare hominis!)
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To: Ippolita; ninenot; Salvation; american colleen
What JP2 is saying

The pope's native tongue is not Italian. That would suggest to me that he did not write this himself in Italian. That raises additional questions:

Which language does the pope use to write his addresses?
Does he even write them, or are they dictated to someone else? If so, in which language?
Who translates them into Italian?
Who proofreads them?
Do they proofread them first in their original language or only in Italian?
How many weekly addresses has the pope delivered in the course of his 25 year pontificate?

As the journalist pointed out in the opening of his article:

The people I am referring to seem to go through papal statements in search of errors and scrutinize the Pope’s activities for inappropriate or imprudent actions.

How many of his weekly addresses have you actually listened to ... correction ... read?

Are there any writings by this pope with which you do agree and if so, which ones?

15 posted on 06/06/2003 3:52:42 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Ippolita
Official Vatican translation into English:
"The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

*************************************

In this passage, John Paul is saying two things that seem to go against my understanding of Church doctrine.

1)
John Paul said that Hell is not a physical place, but just a spiritual separation from God. If that were the case, one who denied God in this life wouldn't have to wait to die, he would be in Hell right now, on Earth, because of his denial of God.

2)
John Paul said that "The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted," and then interpeted Sacred Scripture in a way I haven't seen before. Does that mean that centuries of Church teachings were flawed?

16 posted on 06/06/2003 4:59:57 PM PDT by exodus
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To: NYer
Interesting stats. source?
17 posted on 06/06/2003 5:07:52 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
**You are simply proving the author correct in his assertion that "traditionalists" pour over and scrutinize every word that is uttered by this pope. Shall we bring out the letters of Bishop Williamson who can't hold a candle to the light emanating from Pope John Paul II.**

You called it!
18 posted on 06/06/2003 5:09:21 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: exodus
It is a spiritual separation-----\

Heaven



Hell

A big spiritual difference. I see nothing to criticize here. Artists and we poor humans with only so much imagination have dealt our renderings and understandings as a physical separation.

I truly believe it is spiritual. Total wailing to see the face of God and not being able to.
19 posted on 06/06/2003 5:12:42 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: exodus; Salvation
In this passage, John Paul is saying two things that seem to go against my understanding of Church doctrine.

I'll pose the same questions to you, just in case you missed them.

The pope's native tongue is not Italian. That would suggest to me that he did not write this himself in Italian. That raises additional questions:

Which language does the pope use to write his addresses?
Does he even write them, or are they dictated to someone else? If so, in which language?
Who translates them into Italian?
Who proofreads them?
Do they proofread them first in their original language or only in Italian?
How many weekly addresses has the pope delivered in the course of his 25 year pontificate?

As the journalist pointed out in the opening of his article:

The people I am referring to seem to go through papal statements in search of errors and scrutinize the Pope’s activities for inappropriate or imprudent actions.

How many of his weekly addresses have you actually listened to ... correction ... read?

Are there any writings by this pope with which you do agree and if so, which ones?

20 posted on 06/06/2003 5:22:29 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: exodus
If that were the case, one who denied God in this life wouldn't have to wait to die, he would be in Hell right now, on Earth, because of his denial of God.

You may not have experienced this, but I have.

While I've never "denied God," I've certainly had ebbs in my relationship with God. And, when I did, I sought refuge in drink, in spending money, in "noise." I couldn't stand to be alone with myself, or to endure silence. All the while, I knew exactly what was happening, and I was saying "no."

One of the best books I've ever read is "The Hound of Heaven," by Francis Thompson. It details how Christ pursues us, in every facet and corner of our lives, until He forces us to confront Him.

"Yes" or "No" is a decision we're constantly making, not only with God, but with our wives, our children, our work, our involvement with causes outside ourselves.

Often, like St. Paul, the very thing we would not want to do, we do, and we don't do the thing we should.

And we're miserable afterwards. It's hellish.

21 posted on 06/06/2003 5:33:40 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
**Christ pursues us, in every facet and corner of our lives, until He forces us to confront Him.**

This has happened to me.

(And I am sitting here feeling guilty because I didn't go over to church for the last hour of Adoration.


22 posted on 06/06/2003 5:39:44 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
You will be denounced as having quoted false statistics.
23 posted on 06/06/2003 6:20:14 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: NYer
On April 3, 2000 the Holy See released an annual statistical summary of the world's Catholic population. It shows an increase in the number of Catholics globally, with a slightly higher growth rate than in the overall world population.

The number of Catholics here on earth is a non-issue. The number of Catholics who make it to Heaven is what matters.

There are many people who respond to pollsters as Catholics who haven't stepped foot in a Church in years. The numbers are meaningless.

24 posted on 06/06/2003 6:20:46 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: NYer
Somebody writes most of his addresses--who? who knows?

But I do recall an incident--perhaps on one of his trips to America, where he was reading the address in English and came upon a mis-statement. He actually went back and corrected the sentence 'on the fly.'

Smart dude.
25 posted on 06/06/2003 6:25:07 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: exodus
Seems simple to me. The soul is not physical. Thus, "place" must be a metaphysical state.

One is either (finally) with or not-with God. Thus one's place is either in Heaven or not.

After the resurrection of the body (hasn't happened yet) Hell will be a "place." In the meantime, it's a state of being.
26 posted on 06/06/2003 6:27:37 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: ninenot
Stop making sense.
27 posted on 06/06/2003 6:33:09 PM PDT by sitetest
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To: NYer
Shall we bring out the letters of Bishop Williamson who can't hold a candle to the light emanating from Pope John Paul II.

Let's compare Bishop Williamson to:

Cardinal Bernadin (homosexual), Bishop Loverde (covers for homosexual priests), Bishop Ryan (homosexual and still administering the Sacraments - thanks to Cardinal George), Cardinal Law (covers for homosexual rapists who happen to be Catholic priests), Bishop Curlin (covers for homosexuals priests and teachers and lies about it); Cardinal Mahoney (the list is too long - but look at his new cathedral for starters); Bishop O'Brien (covers for homosexual rapists who happen to be Catholic priests and then lies about it); Bishop Grahmann (covers up for homosexual rapists who happen to be Catholic priests); Bishop Murphy (covers for homosexual rapists who happen to be Catholic priests); Archbishop Elden Curtiss (covers for homosexual rapists who happen to be Catholic priests).

Who is in charge of all of the 'men' listed above?

Please, bring out the letters of Bishop Williamson and let's compare notes.

28 posted on 06/06/2003 6:41:46 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: sinkspur
I couldn't stand to be alone with myself, or to endure silence.

Ah, thus your devotion to the clamor and commotion of the Novus Ordo.

29 posted on 06/06/2003 6:45:10 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: Salvation
I truly believe it is spiritual. Total wailing to see the face of God and not being able to.

Where's Satan in all of this?

30 posted on 06/06/2003 6:48:28 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: huskyboy
It would be a lot easier if these folks from the Wanderer as well as like-minded people would rise up and say "enough!" to modernism and "enough!" to innovation and novelty. Nothing good came of it, so it should be dumped.

Very well said.

31 posted on 06/06/2003 6:55:24 PM PDT by Aloysius
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: Aloysius
Let's compare Bishop Williamson to

No can do, pal. Bishop Williamson was dragged out the other day as a comparison to the pope, since the SSPX don't have one. If you are going to do an apples to apples comparison, then we will have to agree to what constitutes valid comparisons. I'll put forth Cardinal Arinze or Ratzinger .. who do you want to submit?

33 posted on 06/06/2003 7:29:43 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
No can do, pal. Bishop Williamson was dragged out the other day as a comparison to the pope, since the SSPX don't have one.

Not sure what you are referencing since the SSPX recognizes Pope John Paul II as the Bishop of Rome and the Vicar of Christ.

The clergy of the SSPX are grounded enough to realize that, like all other men, the Pope make mistakes. The fan club, on the other hand, can't handle the fact that John Paul II is actually human. When his faults are pointed out (and they should be because he has millions of souls whose salvation depends upon his guidance and leadership) the fan club goes off the deep end.

ANYONE ON THIS FORUM WHO BELIEVES THE POPE IS ABOVE CRITICISM, SHOULD NEVER CRITICIZE A BISHOP BEAUSE THE POPE APPOINTS THE BISHOPS AND HE IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS!

WHERE DOES THE BUCK STOP IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

34 posted on 06/06/2003 7:44:57 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: sandyeggo
Well, that was rude.

But was it true?

35 posted on 06/06/2003 7:47:19 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: ultima ratio; TradicalRC; huskyboy; sinkspur; Tantumergo; american colleen; NYer
A post from a friend on another forum. I was trying (unsucessfully) to explain some of the trad concerns to her. I'll pass your comments back to her if you like.

====


OK, so our "dogma" has changed because we now say Mass in English? Did our "dogma" change when Christian people primarily spoke Greek instead of Aramaic? Did the dogma change again when Mass was universally said in Latin instead of Greek and other vernacular languages?

There is the Oral Tradition (capital T) which is part of the deposit of faith left to us by the Apostles and, along with the Written Tradition (the Bible) consitutes the Word of God.

Then there is tradition (small t) which is the things we do that we are used to doing which pass certain ancestral norms down from generation to generation (and of course this exists in the secular world too).

It seems like a lot of people got "used" to Mass being said a certain way ie: in Latin, priest not facing the people, women with their heads covered, etc. and those are small 't' traditions - just norms, customs. People felt comfortable with them and when the Church went to make some changes to them (which the Chuch is well within Her rights to do), people start acting like the Church is making changes to the deposit of faith left to us by the apostles (the capital 'T' Tradition).

Look, the apostles didn't say that Mass had to be said in Latin with the priest facing away, etc. None of that is "Sacred Tradition". It's just tradition/customs which people got used to and liked. Some people just DO NOT like change. The Church has the authority, given to Her by Christ, to establish disciplines (the 'binding and loosing' that Jesus referred to) as She feels is in the best interest of the flock. It seems to me like what these people really have is an 'authority' issue. They need to remember who is and who is NOT the Magesterium and work on being a little more obedient and a little less critical.

I am already feeling annoyed with them and I don't even KNOW any of them - never have come across any in my life-time so far!!

36 posted on 06/06/2003 7:52:45 PM PDT by drstevej
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: drstevej
People felt comfortable with them and when the Church went to make some changes to them (which the Chuch is well within Her rights to do), people start acting like the Church is making changes to the deposit of faith left to us by the apostles (the capital 'T' Tradition).

Incorrect. The 'Church' changing the very words that Christ spoke to mislead the faithful is trying to change capital 'T' Tradition.

If you change enough of the little 't' tradition, you will lead the faithful to doubt the capital 'T' tradition, which is where we are now.

38 posted on 06/06/2003 8:06:31 PM PDT by Aloysius
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To: ELS; NYer; Ippolita; Maximilian
Hell is the non-state of ontological nullity, the "place" from which the omnipresent God is absent. The Holy Father's attempting to recall the faithful to a concept of Ecclesia as existential, a communion of persons whose existence derives from their participation in God's transcendant Be-ing. Hell is existential suicide, the consequence of the abuse of free will in choosing to reject God. To reject what exists transcendentally with the force of irresistible Truth is to choose what's false -- what "is not". Those who align themselves with what "is not" pronounce sentence on themselves; to them, Jesus as Judge will simply say "thy will be done."
39 posted on 06/06/2003 8:08:29 PM PDT by Romulus
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
I would place this bit of hagiography in the category of damage control. This Pope has certainly made mistakes--but they are not trivial, as this writer seems to believe, they are cataclysmic, and have taken the Church down a road never before travelled.

No pope in history has ever poured out libations to animist gods; none have ever kissed the Koran. This Pope has done this and more: he has elevated apostates to the cardinalate, he has canonized people of bogus sanctity, he has tolerated liturgical abuses for decades, he has presided over a scandal-ridden Church without taking measures to reform.

JnPII certainly deserves much criticism--though criticizing popes is not something traditional Catholics take to easily. But in recent years it has become increasingly apparent that it is a little ridiculous to complain about bad bishops and cardinals while pretending the man at the top has nothing to do with their multiple transgressions. It is not enough for him to do a p.r. turn, make a speech and hope the scandals and apostasies will go away. Action is called for.

The Pope globe-trots endlessly--as if these mass rallies were his primary function. They are not. The primary function of the papacy is to protect the traditional faith. This John Paul II has not done and is not doing.
41 posted on 06/06/2003 8:26:10 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: sandyeggo
How to Govern One's Speech

Perhaps you should have followed your own advice when posting comments about Bishop Williamson. Those who live in glass houses.......

42 posted on 06/06/2003 8:29:11 PM PDT by Aloysius
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: drstevej
I am already feeling annoyed with them and I don't even KNOW any of them - never have come across any in my life-time so far!!

You must invite her here:-)

44 posted on 06/06/2003 8:42:36 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: drstevej
Um, women with their heads covered may be in the big 'T' column. The apostle to the gentiles, Paul states it in the New Testament. It's funny, the Protestants who used to tout Sola Scriptura, seem to totally ignore this for the sake of cultural "relevancy".
45 posted on 06/06/2003 8:48:32 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: NYer
"Nor did the Pope join in prayer with them, as is sometimes insinuated. The groups prayed separately."

The Pope HAS prayed with animists--and even noted as much in his diary--just as he has prayed in a synagogue with Jews THEIR PRAYER for the coming of "a" messiah. This should shock any thinking Catholic. The attempt to make this seem normal for a pope has been a trend among conservative excuse-makers ever since Vatican II. Catholics are being asked continuously to accept the unacceptable--a pope who prays with Voodoo priests and witchdoctors, Masses which more and more resemble Protestant worship services, "spiritual shepherds" who permit the rape of altar boys, seminary professors who teach heresy and expell orthodox candidates, Catholic colleges and universities that hire wiccan theologians and allow performances of "Vagina Monologues" during Lent. None of this is normal. All of it is profoundly unCatholic.

46 posted on 06/06/2003 8:51:37 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: sandyeggo
You've got to love Scupoli. I recently got "Spiritual Combat" and a book by Fr. John Robinson titled "Spiritual Combat Revisited, printed this year by Ignatius Press. Scupoli's opus inspired one of my favorite saints, St. Francis de Sales. He carried a copy of "Spiritual Combat" for at least 18 years of his life. One can see the influence of Scupoli in the saint's writings.
47 posted on 06/06/2003 8:55:01 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
The figures you post are bogus. Why? Because they count as Catholic anyone who has been baptized. As you must know, this is no barometer to indicate who is a practicing Catholic--and even less is it a barometer to judge the spiritual health of the Church. Mass attendance is a much better guage and it has dropped from 80%+ in the early sixties to around 17%--and falling--today. The loss of faith in major Catholic dogmas such as the Real Presence is an even better determinant.
49 posted on 06/06/2003 8:59:26 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Aloysius; sandyeggo
All right already! I think highly of both of you, but this isn't getting us anywhere. I think we can all recognize that there are problems in this modern age of the Church. I know this has some overtones of Rodney King's famous words, but we know what our task is. Let's work together to help solve it, and put our faith in Jesus Christ, instead of men full of flaws. If we put of faith, hope, and love in Him, and let this govern our words, actions, thoughts, and feelings, we will see progress.
50 posted on 06/06/2003 9:00:10 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
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