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Dancing Our Prayers Away?
TCR News ^ | June 2003 | Carrie Tomko

Posted on 06/12/2003 6:57:13 AM PDT by NYer

Dancing Our Prayers Away?

By Carrie Tomko

liturgical dance

The Catholic Bishops are expected to discuss a position paper on liturgical dance when they meet in Dallas this weekend, according to an article in the June 8, 2003 Stow (Ohio) Sentry, which unfortunately is not available online.

The position paper was written by Kathryn Mihelek, a former dance instructor at Kent State University, who runs Leaven Dance Company ( http://faculty-l.slis.kent.edu/~tfroehli/leaven/about.html ) and is a 41-year member of Holy Family Catholic Church in Stow, where she and her small company "act out choreographed movements to express prayers in church services such as...Masses," according to the article. Mihelek's paper has been passed on to the Liturgy Commission by Cleveland Bishop Anthony M. Pilla. Leaven Dance Co. is in residence at the Kent State University Newman Center.

In 1999 Mihelick, with the help of an Ohio Arts Council grant, scheduled an ecumenical concert of sacred dance in the sanctuary of Holy Family Church. The concert would include samplings from various cultures. As a result of objections received, four days before the concert, the diocese asked Holy Family to change the venue. However, because the lighting had been contracted and the dances choreographed for the sanctuary, Mihelick asked to keep the sanctuary location and was given an ok. Two days later, the diocese received a fax from the Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship objecting to a performance in the sanctuary, and the event was moved to the Holy Family School auditorium.

In searching for the official position of the Vatican on sacred dance in Western culture, it became clear that the primary document touching on this subject is "Dance in the Liturgy" from the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship--a document called a "qualified and authoritative sketch" intended to be "an authoritative point of reference for every discussion on the matter." The first English translation of this document appeared in The Canon Law Digest, Vol. VIII, pp 78-82. There is controversy over the definition of terms in the document and over whether the document is authoritative. Clearly something more would be helpful. The document says: ( http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWDANCE.HTM )

Quote: Here [in western culture] dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.

For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations.

I trust that the Bishops will not abandon this sensible teaching when they discuss liturgical dance.

For those who have never seen this spectacle in person, there are pictures on the web of the Sisters of the Holy Cross performing liturgical dance in Canada, apparently while Mass is being celebrated. ( http://www.sistersofholycross.org/canada.htm )

At St. Joseph's Parish of the Polish National Catholic Church in Florida, liturgical dance was used at a candle lighting event. ( http://stjosephpncc.org/HTML/mj.htm )

The Sisters of St. Benedict performed a liturgical dance at evening prayer before the entrance ceremony. ( http://www.thedome.org/new/HomeDome/2002/April/ )

The St. Andrew's Benedictine Abbey sponsored a Sacred Arts Festival in collaboration with the Jubilee 2000 Committee of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Companies performing at this festival included Omega West Dance Company, a resident dance troupe at the Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City, ( http://www.stjohndivine.org/arts/arts_title.html ) and the Abbey's own troupe, The Valyermo Dancers. ( http://www.sacredartsfestival.org/dance.htm )

According to their website, Carla de Sola founded Omega Dance Company in 1974 to "express the spiritual, social, and healing dimensions of dance. The company is dedicated to bringing dance into spiritual observances and in concert for all settings." That philosophy is similar to Leaven Dance Company's philosophy which states:

The company believes that dance has a powerful potential to be an agent for self-discovery, spiritual enrichment, positive change and growth, and personal and international peace. The ensemble dwells in the belief that creative authentic movement _expression reflects a universal language of communication; integrates body, mind and spirit; and promotes unity among diverse populations.

What does this person-centered philosophy have to do with formal prayer? The focus is on the person who dances, not on the God we worship. When David danced before the Ark of the Covenant, he was adoring God, not fostering personal or international peace or positive change and self-discovery.

A brief look at liturgical dance in the Protestant churches brought up the Church of God in Christ which has a dance ministry. ( http://www.westa.org/dance.htm ) So does the Prince of Peace Charismatic Episcopal Church. ( http://princeofpeacecec.org/index.html ) It's not quite clear what their dancers are doing with their red scarves in the picture.

The St. Anthony Performing Arts Guild ( http://www.stanthonydance.org/gld_sacred_dance.htm ) is not affiliated with a church. They charge $300 to perform at one service. I wonder how we would feel about a priest charging that much money to say Mass? If liturgical dance is not to be a performance, how can a fee be charged for the service?

Sacred dance is not affiliated exclusively with Christian religions. The book Sacred Woman, Sacred Dance: Awakening Spirituality... by Iris J. Stewart ( http://www.newvision-psychic.com/bookshelf/SacredWomanS.htm ) focuses on women's spirituality and creativity. The book has been reviewed favorably by a Buddhist at the website, and two other reviewers refer to belly dancing as a style of sacred dance. Many of the dancers in these various linked websites were shown using veils. Is that a tradition borrowed from belly dancing?

Stewart founded her own WomanDance troupe which "performs interpretive dances that explore women's spirituality." The New-Vision website which linked the reviews of the book ( http://www.newvision-psychic.com/bookshelf/womenspirit.html ) features a variety of the symbol called the "Eye of Thelema" on the website. That eye is a symbol of those who follow the spiritual teaching of occultist Aleister Crowley who adapted it from the Eye of Horus symbol.

A well-known New Age group offering Sacred Dance is the Findhorn Foundation. ( http://www.findhorn.org/events/workshops/dancefestival.html )

Most of these liturgical or sacred dance groups were formed in the last 35 years. But this artform was in the making much earlier. In 1912 Rosicrucian occultist Rudolf Steiner introduced what he called "Eurythmy" to the world.

The Anthroposophical Society in America, the Theosophical organization Steiner founded, describes Eurythmy this way: ( http://www.anthroposophy.org/arts.php )

Eurythmy translates the sounds, phrases, and rhythms of speech, or the dynamic elements of music into movement and gesture. The result has been described as "visible speech", or "visible song". It could be called the movement language of the soul.

Cynthia Hoven, St. Mary's University, presented a working paper on "Eurythmy as Visible Speech: A Somatic Approach to Language" ( http://www.trismegistos.com/IconicityInLanguage/Articles/Hoven.html ) in which she says:

Eurythmy is a movement art initiated by the Austrian scientist, scholar and philosopher, Dr. Rudolf Steiner, in 1912 as the art of Visible Speech and Visible Song. Originally conceived as a performance art, it bears resemblances to dance and to mime but is also clearly distinct from both. It also bears relationship to the ancient forms of sacred and cultic dance, yet it is wholly secular in its character. Eurythmy is also used in medical, pedagogical, and sociological fields.

Eurythmy has powerful effects on body, mind and spirit. It can be characterized as a modern form of Tai Chi or Yoga as easily as it can be called a dance form. Its medical applications are broad, and it belongs to the field of energetic healing. It calls for quieting and focusing the mind and appeals to people who are seeking a form of movement meditation. It can lead one to explore the nature of speech and language and to find a more vivid experience of what it means to be a human being, living in a world of speech. The last decades of the twentieth century saw the advent and popularization of an enormous number of new and old forms of so-called energy work. The art of Eurythmy, which has its roots in very ancient spiritual and cultural traditions and predates the newer energy techniques by several decades, remains often overlooked.

Consider for a moment the pictures of liturgical dancers in the above-linked websites. Many of them wore flowing clothing or used flowing veils which seem to be a part of the dance process. Most had their arms in the air.

Nineteen pictures of dancers performing Eurythmy are shown at the website for the Eurythmy - European Project, international year. ( http://www.antroposofi.org/rss699/euint/index.htm ) The resemblance between these pictures and the pictures of dancing nuns are striking.

Steiner's Waldorf education uses Eurythmy as this Waldorf homeschool website explains. ( http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/dance.htm )

Quoting Rudolf Steiner from the website:

As men, our purpose is to imitate, to absorb the movement of the world into ourselves through our limbs. What do we do then? We dance. This is true dancing. Other dancing is only fragmentary dancing. All true dancing has arisen from imitating in the limbs the movement carried out by the planets. (sic) by other heavenly bodies or by the earth itself.

The ether body wants to make circular movements, however, and so the person dances. Dancing is usually a matter of someone not wanting to follow his physical body but his ether body. The desire to dance usually exists so that a person may forget his physical body and can feel himself to be a spirit that belongs to the cosmos.

Eurythmy in education is also covered at these school websites which have additional pictures:

Orana School ( http://www.oranaschool.com/articles/2001-may.html )
Rudolf Steiner Institute ( http://www.steinerinstitute.org/courses/3.4.2.htm )

School of Eurythmy ( http://eurythmy.org/abotschl.htm )

Spring Valley ( http://eurythmy.org/bssah.htm )

Association of Eurythmists ( http://www.anthroposophy.org.uk/main/eurythmy.htm )

Eurythmy West Midlands ( http://www.elmfield.com/links.htm ) (click second link on right for an enlarged picture)

Note the "Eye of Thelema" on the logo at the bottom of the website for West Midlands.

http://www.elmfield.com/links.htmFrequently asked questions about Eurythmy are covered at the Eurythmy.org website. ( http://www.eurythmy.org.uk/faq/eurythmy_faq.html )

Two of the websites use a form of Aleister Crowley's "Eye of Thelema." Was Steiner a member of Crowley's occult organization, the Ordo Templi Orientis? The topic is controversial. A respected researcher in the field, Peter R. Koenig says no, but indicates Steiner was not a stranger to occult movements. Both he and his wife were members of the Egyptian Rite of Freemasonry called Memphis-Mizraim. ( http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm )

I have found no indication that Steiner engaged in any immorality. It seems unlikely, then, that he was a member of the Crowleyites. Yet his involvement with Egyptian Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism certainly puts him outside of the Catholic concept of the faith. The material which he taught he obtained through clairvoyance, a type of channeling. The striking resemblance between Eurythmy and the liturgical dance that is being performed in Catholic churches is hard to comprehend considering these roots.

One of the "hot buttons" in discussions of liturgy, sacred dance in Western culture does not have an historical precedent. Were dance to be incorporated into liturgy, it would amount to a foreign element, an innovation. As such it would convey certain meaning. What would that meaning be?

Since nearly always in pictures on the web the dancers are exclusively women, a flavor of goddess worship would be introduced by this practice. These performances also conjure up images of exotic dancers performing before eastern potentates. The sexual overtones which go with this image are inevitable for some if not for all those who witness the spectacle.

There is the question of the exclusion from a part of Mass of half of the population, namely men. With concern being expressed in some circles about the feminization of the faith, this would be an additional element contributing to an imbalance. Vatican II expressly required full and active participation of the laity. How does the male half of the laity fully participate in liturgical dance performed by women? Should a way be found to include male dancers, would the laity then observe and speculate about the orientation of the male dancers as the general public considers the orientation of male ballet dancers? Is this speculation what we want to introduce into our liturgy at this particular time of crisis in the Church?

Even if that problem could be overcome, there is still the issue of most of the congregation sitting in the pews and observing a performance which can hardly be denied considering that some sacred dance troupes charge for their services. Once the liturgical dance is accepted, the idea of performance at liturgy will become an element of ritual which will cause us to see the priest in a different light. He will become not "In Personna Christi" but rather the priest "performing" as the celebrant at Mass. He will also be evaluated by performance criteria just as the dancers will be evaluated.

This is in sharp contrast to the spontaneous exuberant dance of joy performed by David before the Ark of the Covenent--a dance that was unrehearsed, brought him no monetary recompence, and required no contracted lighting or choreography.

There is also the question of Psalm 150 which recommends exuberance in celebration with timbrel and dance, strings and pipe, cymbals. These were the instruments of the temple service according to the footnote to this Psalm in my New American Bible . In other words, once again it is a cultural phenomenon which cannot be applied to Western culture. Additionally, there is the matter of the Crucifixion. Our Mass, as the Holy Father reiterated so strongly in his recent Encyclical on the Eucharist in its Relationship to the Church, re-presents to us the sacrifice of Calvary. Does one dance with cymbals, timbrel, strings and pipe around a death bed? Such cavorting would hardly be appropriate. Temple sacrifice involved the death of animals. Catholic Mass involves the sacrifice of the Son of God. The Catechism of Trent instructs us to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with "heartfelt piety and devotion." (p. 405) Dancing, as it is perceived in our culture, would hardly meet this requirement.

With so many obstacles to overcome, with so many irresponsible disruptions in the Church at present, a change that would allow dance in the liturgy would be imprudent at best.

(c) 2003, Carrie Tomko. All Rights Reserved


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: dance; liturgy; mass; priest
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Once the liturgical dance is accepted, the idea of performance at liturgy will become an element of ritual which will cause us to see the priest in a different light. He will become not "In Personna Christi" but rather the priest "performing" as the celebrant at Mass. He will also be evaluated by performance criteria just as the dancers will be evaluated.

This MUST be stopped .... NOW!!!

1 posted on 06/12/2003 6:57:14 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; livius; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
As ALL of you know, liturgical dance is my hot button. I strongly suggest a letter writing campaign to our bishops, beginning right now! Otherwise, this is what you will be facing the next time you attend mass.

In general, experimentation is gravely wrong, as stated in Vatican II's Instruction on the Orderly Carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy (Liturgicae Instaurationes):

"The effectiveness of liturgy does not lie in experimenting with rites and altering them over and over, nor in a continuous reductionism, but solely in entering more deeply into the word of God and the mystery being celebrated. It is the presence of these two that authenticates the Church's rites, not what some priest decides, indulging his own preferences."

"Keep in mind, then, that the private recasting of ritual introduced by an individual priest insults the dignity of the believer and lays the way open to individual and idiosyncratic forms in celebrations that are in fact the property of the whole Church."

Those of you who wish to join me in this campaign (I can hardly type, my hands are shaking), please let me know. I have already researched this topic and have extensive references that are proven to stop the introduction of liturgical dance.

2 posted on 06/12/2003 7:06:15 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
The new GIRM is slated for implementation on July 1st in all Arch/dioceses!

Contact your bishop via email, phone or fax to make sure this is happening in your area!

U. S. Catholic Bishops contact page by state or diocese

3 posted on 06/12/2003 7:12:34 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; Bellarmine; BlackElk; Canticle_of_Deborah; Dajjal; ..
O Torquemada, where art thou?
4 posted on 06/12/2003 7:14:26 AM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: Salvation
**Contact your bishop via email, phone or fax to make sure this is happening in your area!**

this=implementation of the new GIRM

And that the dancing is NOT happening!

5 posted on 06/12/2003 7:14:47 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
two other reviewers refer to belly dancing as a style of sacred dance.

Some people have a queer idea of "sacred". Of all the pieces of "liturgical experimentation" to which we have been subjected, "liturgical dance" is by far the most evil. The 9AM Folk Group and the 11:30 Downbeat Combo Band are bad enough, but these dancers clearly and undeniably pervert the God-centered Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into a Man-centered performance.

6 posted on 06/12/2003 7:27:14 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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To: NYer
At St. Joseph's Parish of the Polish National Catholic Church in Florida

These jokers are schismatics anyway.

There's no point in complaining to anyone in the hierarchy about people who think that being Polish is more important than being Catholic.

I believe that Cardinal Ratzinger made the point some years ago that dancing in the West has always been associated with recreation and physical courtship and its only religious associations have been with highly immoral fertility cults.

Artificially introducing dance into the Roman liturgy is, on its face, an attack on two thousand years of Western liturgical tradition.

7 posted on 06/12/2003 7:34:44 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: NYer
I have seen this before. One of my parishes back home, had this at one of the Masses. She danced up the aisle to the altar, leading the procession of the priest and altar servers. I was a little shocked. I don't want to see this.
8 posted on 06/12/2003 8:09:52 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: wideawake
Well---this attack would simply be one more in a long list (e.g., altar "girls.")

9 posted on 06/12/2003 8:11:33 AM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: NYer
A very quick once-over of the USCC site does NOT yield a list of members of the LitCommit. Disappointing.
10 posted on 06/12/2003 8:18:39 AM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: ninenot
Precisely. They should be recognized as such.

Parishioners who are treated to such spectacles should inform the pastor that they are personally insulted and that they are concerned for the well-being of the parish.

11 posted on 06/12/2003 8:35:21 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: NWU Army ROTC; wideawake; Salvation; Diago
I was a little shocked. I don't want to see this.

Then you MUST act NOW!! I have already written to my bishop this year but I am only one voice crying in the wilderness. It took two letters and lots of freeper guidance and help but it was prevented!

Here is the subtle nuance that the parishes and dioceses currently use to permit liturgical dance. According to the Notitiae, issued in 1975, the bishops authorized that dance be commended for further study. In other words, the parishes currently using this illicit practice do so under that guise. HOWEVER, in the same Notitiae, the same document specifically sets forth standards for such a study.

The first: to the extent in which the body is a reflection of the soul, dancing, with all its manifestations, would have to express sentiments of faith and adoration in order to become a prayer.

The second condition: just as all the gestures and movements found in the liturgy are regulated by the competent ecclesiastical authority, so also dancing as a gesture would have to be under its discipline.

If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.

There will be a professional dancer there, at the request of the Cleveland Diocese diocese (one of the MOST liberal) to speak on behalf of liturgical dance.

How does one demand equal time?

Is it too late to have someone speak at the conference?

Who must they contact to do so?

12 posted on 06/12/2003 8:35:55 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer

Pope Piel I

The Pocket Fisher of Men

Now taking applications for positions once the white smoke goes up and yours truly dons the white and gold chest high waders.

Coming Soon:

 

Not Coming Soon:

Suggestions are welcomed via freepmail.


13 posted on 06/12/2003 8:36:49 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Loyalist; BlackElk; CCWoody; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
***O Torquemada, where art thou?***

Only a white puff of smoke away... Black Elk and Calvinist_Dark_Lord (assisted by his faithful companion CCWoody) are ready!
14 posted on 06/12/2003 8:38:34 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
How does one demand equal time? Is it too late to have someone speak at the conference? Who must they contact to do so?

I wouldn't even bother to make an appearance.

These conferences always utilize the "Delphi" crowd management/consensus consulting method.

No orthodox person can get a fair hearing by definition.

15 posted on 06/12/2003 8:38:54 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: NYer; drstevej

Psalm 149:3
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

16 posted on 06/12/2003 8:53:05 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
** I don't want to see this.**

Then email or cal or fax your Arch/bishop.
17 posted on 06/12/2003 9:07:24 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ninenot; All
**A very quick once-over of the USCC site does NOT yield a list of members of the LitCommit. Disappointing.**

I didn't find it either. But I did find this.

Address on the bottom of the page:
Committee on the Liturgy
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
3211 4th Street, N.E.
Washington, DC 20017-1194 (202) 541-3060

18 posted on 06/12/2003 9:18:01 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
**cal**

call
19 posted on 06/12/2003 9:20:48 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: wideawake; Salvation
No orthodox person can get a fair hearing by definition.

I don't buy that! I demand equal time!

Who do I email at this late hour? Which of the conservative bishops shares our views ... Bruskewitz? Dolan? Who?

20 posted on 06/12/2003 9:27:41 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
Bruskewitz has forbidden liturgical dance in his diocese. I think Chaput has expressed his disapproval as well.
21 posted on 06/12/2003 9:29:20 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: NYer
Re: not "buying that"

These conferences and gatherings are prearranged and scheduled.

The speakers are preselected for their ideology before it even begins.

The subject matter of the gathering starts off from a "hermeneutic of suspicion" - any defense of orthodoxy will be seen as a fascistic move to close off debate.

He who plans the meeting and picks the particiapnts controls the meeting.

22 posted on 06/12/2003 9:32:15 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: Salvation
I didn't find it either. But I did find this.

This document is not very encouraging! The Holy Father starts out well:

"The subject on which I would like to reflect with you further today is the pastoral care of the liturgy and sacraments, taking into account the essential role every Bishop and the Episcopal Conferences have in this area, as I recalled in my Apostolic Letter for the 25th anniversary of the Council's Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, (4 December 1988, nn. 20-21)."

However, in the next paragraph, he says:

"The liturgy, which expresses the Church's proper nature and is a source for the mission, is given to us by the Church herself to glorify God: thus its laws, which should be respected by distinguishing the different roles carried out by ordained ministers and by lay people. Whatever directs believers to God, what gathers them and what unites them with one another and with all the other assemblies should be given priority. "

You know as well as I that statements of this sort are easily spun, by the moderninsts like Mahony, Clark and the bsp of Cleveland, into whatever "they" believe it to mean. That statement could easily become a ringing endorsement for liturgical dance, or other abuses.

23 posted on 06/12/2003 9:38:29 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: wideawake; Salvation
Bruskewitz has forbidden liturgical dance in his diocese. I think Chaput has expressed his disapproval as well.

It's a start. Will you help me in this effort? Please, please email them, assuming it isn't too late. The conference begins this weekend which may mean that they have already left. This is so frustrating!!!

24 posted on 06/12/2003 9:40:25 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
Since the meeting is in Dallas and now Rod Dreher lives there, why don't you contact him? Also, you should maybe forward this thread to the blogspot of Mark Shea - tons of people read his stuff and I have seen Rod Dreher post there often.
25 posted on 06/12/2003 9:59:42 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
***Also, you should maybe forward this thread to the blogspot of Mark Shea - tons of people read his stuff and I have seen Rod Dreher post there often.***

Great idea, Pope Piel needs a wider audience... :-)

26 posted on 06/12/2003 10:03:36 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej; NYer
Not for Pope Piel, dangit!

NYer, OK, maybe not the whole thread (else they think we are nuts with a Calvinist at the helm) but you write well and you could send Mark Shea a little note. Bet he blogs on it.

27 posted on 06/12/2003 10:08:02 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: NYer; All
While I'm thinking of it... there is a great new "blogspot" critiquing the latest news that can be found here: Catholic World News Commentary. One of the commentators is Fr. Joseph Wilson who I wish was in charge of appointing the USA bishops.
28 posted on 06/12/2003 10:12:34 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: drstevej; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Loyalist
Your services are needed.
29 posted on 06/12/2003 10:14:22 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Corin Stormhands
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp

That's great if you're Jewish.

30 posted on 06/12/2003 10:16:52 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: Loyalist
Amazing, isn't it? Did anyone alive 40 years ago ever expect that there'd be a discussion of "liturgical dance" or Girl Altar Boys, or Womyn Priests, or any of the other nonesense we must endure in today's Conciliar Church, where the side broaching the heresy is taken seriously?
31 posted on 06/12/2003 10:18:10 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: american colleen
Rod Dreher

Excuse my ignorance but who is he?

BTW, the Bishop's conference is not until next week, that still leaves time to email some of the bishops. Please help!

32 posted on 06/12/2003 10:23:10 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: asformeandformyhouse
That's great if you're Jewish.

You got a source for a New Testament scripture that says "toss out the Psalms?"

33 posted on 06/12/2003 10:23:20 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
see post #14
34 posted on 06/12/2003 10:27:29 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Corin Stormhands
You got a source for a New Testament scripture that says "toss out the Psalms?"

Got one that says include them? Psalms are songs of praise to God. Any method of worship mentioned in the Psalms would have to have been acceptable within the old Law. Christians are not under the law, therefore methods of worship that were once acceptable may no longer be. Sacrificed any animals lately?

Christians must look to the NT for acceptable worship.

Galatians 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

35 posted on 06/12/2003 10:31:19 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: NYer
Rod Dreher. He's pretty influential in terms of audience and he has a lot of friends in high places.

I will write letters or e-mail, but I am rather challenged on that score. Hows about you compose a loose idea for a letter and I'll (and anyone else interested) can use that?

36 posted on 06/12/2003 10:31:19 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: NYer; Corin Stormhands; drstevej; Salvation; ninenot; Loyalist; asformeandformyhouse
There is also the question of Psalm 150 which recommends exuberance in celebration with timbrel and dance, strings and pipe, cymbals.

Psalm 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Lies! LIES! LIES! LIES!!!!!

(Did you expect anything less???)

From the Douai Old Testament:

Psalm 149

Cantate Domino.

The church is particularly bound to praise God.

Alleluia.

1 Sing ye to the Lord a new canticle: let his praise be in the church of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: and let the children of Sion be joyful in their king.

3 Let them praise his name in choir: let them sing to him with the timbrel and the psaltery. (laudent nomen eius in choro in tympano et cithara cantent ei)

4 For the Lord is well pleased with his people: and he will exalt the meek unto salvation.

5 The saints shall rejoice in glory: they shall be joyful in their beds.

6 The high praises of God shall be in their mouth: and two-edged swords in their hands:

7 To execute vengeance upon the nations, chastisements among the people:

8 To bind their kings with fetters, and their nobles with manacles of iron.

9 To execute upon them the judgment that is written: this glory is to all his saints. Alleluia.

Psalm 150

Laudate Dominum in sanctis.

An exhortation to praise God with all sorts of instruments.

Alleluia.

1 Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power.

2 Praise ye him for his mighty acts: praise ye him according to the multitude of his greatness.

3 Praise him with the sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.

4 Praise him with timbrel and choir: praise him with strings and organs. (laudate eum in tympano et choro laudate eum in cordis et organo)

5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.

But of course, its old hat to just retranslate the Bible to make it support whatever the hell you want it to now support.

37 posted on 06/12/2003 10:34:08 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: american colleen
***Hows about you compose a loose idea for a letter and I'll (and anyone else interested) can use that?***

Here's one...

To whom it may concern:

No dancing babes! It makes Jesus hurl.

Sincerely,

[Your Name]

38 posted on 06/12/2003 10:34:56 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
A good Pope is always three steps and 100 years ahead of the game.
39 posted on 06/12/2003 10:35:17 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: asformeandformyhouse
Sacrificed any animals lately?

Or ritually circumcised your sons?

40 posted on 06/12/2003 10:36:31 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
***Sacrificed any animals lately?***

I did close the garage door on a frog this morning.
41 posted on 06/12/2003 10:38:22 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: asformeandformyhouse
Sacrificed any animals lately?

Not this week. But then Christ presesnted himself as the final sacrifice, not the final waltz.

42 posted on 06/12/2003 10:43:12 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
But then Christ presesnted himself as the final sacrifice, not the final waltz.

All authority for christian worship comes from the the NT. The word 'dance' is found nowhere in the NT.

43 posted on 06/12/2003 11:07:35 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: drstevej
I like it! I like it!

Pithy and direct.

44 posted on 06/12/2003 11:09:27 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: asformeandformyhouse
So, what else do you ignore from the Old Testament?
45 posted on 06/12/2003 11:17:43 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: american colleen; NYer
Since Cynthia Hoven,St.Mary's University,in her paper entitled "Everything is Visible Speech.A Somatic Approach To Language" connects Rudolf Steiner to this movement we might remind the bishops of Hitler's connection to the occultic Thule Society of which Steiner was a member.

Perhaps,a little "attaboy" might do the trick. We could send a little note to the bishops saying something like "I am happy to see the big catholic tent finally opening it's arms to Naziism,for so long I have felt that the admiration and adulation of all things Marxist and Bolshevic evidenced by so many of you in the USCCB,was so terribly unfair to the Nazis."

" Now finally you are recognizing some of the underpinnings that were foundational to the National Socialist Party.Bring on the dancers and lets inextricably admix the idaologies of Marx and Hitler,however,I am a little concerned about anti-semitism. Was not that considered a natural outgrowth of Naziism?"

"On the other hand,it is a wonderful tribute to your new found enthusiasm for inclusivity,equal oppurtunity and cultural diversity. You guys are just so darn smart."

(This is a little sarcasm.)

46 posted on 06/12/2003 11:23:13 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Corin Stormhands
So, what else do you ignore from the Old Testament?

I ignore nothing from the OT. It was written for our understanding.

Romans 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

But I only look to the NT for authority in worship.

What other parts of the old law do you keep? Dietary restrictions? Stoning of someone who works on the sabbath? Selling your children into bondage?

47 posted on 06/12/2003 11:25:29 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: drstevej
I did close the garage door on a frog this morning.

But that was just for fun. :)

48 posted on 06/12/2003 11:26:28 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: NYer
**You know as well as I that statements of this sort are easily spun, by the moderninsts like Mahony, Clark and the bsp of Cleveland, into whatever "they" believe it to mean. That statement could easily become a ringing endorsement for liturgical dance, or other abuses.**

Spinning ad infinitum!
49 posted on 06/12/2003 11:26:40 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: drstevej
**Great idea, Pope Piel needs a wider audience... :-) **

You goof!
50 posted on 06/12/2003 11:27:37 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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