Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Dancing Our Prayers Away?
TCR News ^ | June 2003 | Carrie Tomko

Posted on 06/12/2003 6:57:13 AM PDT by NYer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-203 next last
To: TotusTuus; drstevej
Well, whatever. Some 150 posts later no one has provided a scriptural basis for the inclusion or exclusion of dance in worship.
151 posted on 06/13/2003 6:39:34 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: Corin Stormhands
Actually, I have no problem with dramatic elements in presenting spiritual truth or expressing worship.

I do, however, see why RCs are offended with using it in the mass given the theology of the mass they believe. The very name "clown mass" is a indication that something's amiss.
152 posted on 06/13/2003 6:44:27 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
The very name "clown mass" is a indication that something's amiss.

Agreed.

I've already spent much more time on this thread than I ever intended.

153 posted on 06/13/2003 6:50:36 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Sweatin to the Rosary!

LOL!

I deliberately left off any personal commentary from that picture and why it was in black and white (had the same thought you did, especially when I saw no discernable body hair).

Don't it figure he's a Jebbie.

154 posted on 06/13/2003 6:53:09 AM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: NYer
This is the logical next step. First the "presider" turned around to face his audience, converting the sanctuary into a stage for his folksy, stand-up comedic routine. Musicians soon followed. Now here come the dancers.
155 posted on 06/13/2003 6:54:21 AM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Contact the bishops? Are you kidding? They have an agenda. This is another turning of the screw.
156 posted on 06/13/2003 6:56:42 AM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: NYer
They are devilishly clever. There's always some sort of justification. They did away with kneeling for Communion by giving the excuse that there was a "traffic" problem in the aisles. Now they talk about the body being a reflection of the soul. Apparently only when it's not in a kneeling posture.

The truth is these people are trying to impose a new religion. They do it bit by bit, making sure a whole generation has grown up without any real catechesis, and turning Bugnini's Mass into a musical comedy. Meanwhile the Pope is off in his own space somewhere waving his stick at youth rallies.
157 posted on 06/13/2003 7:11:15 AM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: saradippity; NYer
If liturgical dance is approved, can this be far behind?


158 posted on 06/13/2003 7:18:56 AM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
The new GIRM does away with even the EE Ministers being at the altar, so these pictures would cease to exist if they follow the new GIRM.

Looks like their site need a little FReeping, eh?
159 posted on 06/13/2003 8:10:34 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
OH! Whew!

It is an Episcopal Church in Sanfrancisco, no less!

160 posted on 06/13/2003 8:13:25 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Oops!
SanFrancisco
161 posted on 06/13/2003 8:14:30 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 160 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Oh, I didn't know that about the EEM's on the altar - what are the new directions for them?

This parish (the picture in #158) is an Episcopal parish, btw. I scrolled through the entire thing and found that they use french bread for Communion and they receive in their hands which are cupped together as a "throne." Kind of threw me.

162 posted on 06/13/2003 8:16:43 AM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

To: ninenot; drstevej
Doo wop is the music of those who smile and are entitled to do so. Quakers do not smile. Neither did Shakers and that's not all that Shakers did not do which is why there are no more Shakers. Nice furniture, though!
163 posted on 06/13/2003 8:29:39 AM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! Kumbayaism delenda est!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: BlackElk
What do you mean the Shakers are no more! They're down here in Lousiana...

http://www.louisianashakers.com/
164 posted on 06/13/2003 8:47:11 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: Corin Stormhands
I hope you didn't take offense. I'll assume that you don't attend a charismatic church that allows people to crawl around on the floor while barking like a dog (like Toronto or Brownsville). I attended a pentecostal church where the pastor was adamant about people remaining respectful and made sure that no one was getting carried away. People can take anything to the extreme, no doubt about it, and unfortunately, the post Vatican 2 Catholic church has alot of unpious, blasphemous, animistic practices allowed by modernist bishops and priests. They don't want to say "that's enough" because their sole purpose is to destroy the Church from within and alot of ignorant, ill-informed "Catholics" are allowing them to do it unchecked.
God Bless.:)
165 posted on 06/13/2003 9:35:51 AM PDT by southern_living (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: southern_living
I hope you didn't take offense.

No offense taken. And no, we don't "bark." ;-)

My church is not what most here would associate as a "typical" pentecostal church.

166 posted on 06/13/2003 9:42:24 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: american colleen; Salvation; sinkspur; livius; Lady In Blue; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
UPDATE!!

Mark Shea has posted this story to his blog. Here is the link. Thank you all for your input.

Catholic and Enjoying It!

167 posted on 06/13/2003 9:43:25 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Tol ya!
168 posted on 06/13/2003 9:51:05 AM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
Tol ya!

I never doubted you ... not even for a minute! BTW, he has a story posted about the conversion of Dick Morris to catholicism. When you click on it, the link brings you to FreeRepublic.

Okay everyone ... thanks again for your help! Let's hope some good comes out of this.

169 posted on 06/13/2003 9:54:58 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 168 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
Not that it is my cup of tea, but the link concerning Rev. VerEecke's For the Greater Glory of God performance act is not necessarily wrong. I don't understand it as taking place of, or during, the Liturgy of the Church. It's a, I don't know, play? Catholics are allowed and even encouraged to express their Faith through the arts, this being the performing arts. Even Pope John Paul II wrote plays concerning the Faith early in his life. Who knows? Maybe it is orthodox and thought provoking. There are stealth Jesuits out there who still defend the Faith! Admittedly, like I said, this type of performance has never been my cup of tea.
170 posted on 06/13/2003 2:26:45 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: Corin Stormhands; drstevej
Well, whatever. Some 150 posts later no one has provided a scriptural basis for the inclusion or exclusion of dance in worship.

Dancing is a natural expression of human nature. The supernatural revelation of God as found in the Holy Scriptures builds on nature while going above and beyond it. 'Worship' is a general term that can cover a lot of territory. In general, there are passages in Scripture (such as David "dancing" before the Ark of the Covenant) which show this as being an authentic possibility in worshiping God. It takes into account and builds on the existing culture of the people, for example. It's kinda God's style in His dialogue with us through the centuries leading to the climax of the Incarnation. The Divine Liturgy is a specific type of public worship primarily performed by God on our behalf, and secondarily received by us and given back to Him.

The Holy Scriptures were not written with the view in mind to give detailed instructions, as if it were a handbook, concerning specifics such as this. The Scriptures do give authority to God's Divinely instituted Church (the pillar of Truth) under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit to fill in these details. Hence Sacred Tradition.

The question that this article raises is: Where, when, why and how can dancing be incorporated into the Church's worship to maximize the Glory of God, using the entire being of Her members. I don't see how that can be accomplished in our cultural situation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass proper.

171 posted on 06/13/2003 2:52:06 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
Sorry you posted that. From one angle it reminds me of how offended I get at Masses,when we are asked to bless something or other.If I am sitting toward the back and the congregation is asked to hold up their right arm and bless some group or other,I am amazed at the resemblance they have to pictures I have seen of Hitler's Youth Rallies.I am always afraid I am going to hear a "heil Hitler". There is something very pagan,occultic and Nazilike going on in our church.

And as I said yesterday,I can't imagine how they are going to blend this fascist church with the marxist,leftist one so many of the social justice folks are bringing to us.

172 posted on 06/13/2003 3:31:53 PM PDT by saradippity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: american colleen; Polycarp; NYer; TotusTuus; BlackElk; Hermann the Cherusker
Passing the cup
The Clergy, Deacons, and helpers are all communicated, and then they walk among the people, giving the Bread and Wine. The bread is given by name (nametags help this) to all who want it, without exception, with the words, The Body of Christ.

The Cup is passed from person to person, with the words The Blood of Christ.

Read more in Worship at St Gregory's
Deacon giving bread

 YOPIOS (Your Own Priest's Improvisation of Sacraments)

173 posted on 06/13/2003 4:05:37 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: american colleen; Salvation
Oh, I didn't know that about the EEM's on the altar - what are the new directions for them?

The Eucharistic Ministers are still at the altar. The GIRM says that the priest or deacon hands them either the cup or plate for distribution, and that none of the EMs are to pour the Precious Blood into the cups.

But, they can still stand around the altar.

174 posted on 06/13/2003 4:16:51 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: american colleen; Polycarp; NYer; TotusTuus; BlackElk; Hermann the Cherusker
Philip Wickeri preaching M.R. Ritley preaching Rick Fabian preaching

Man this is an amazing place. Pope Piel will definitely visit this place!

18 May 03 (8:30am) How has God interrupted your life? One of the qualities of those interruptions is a feeling of having known it all your life, a sense of coming home. (6min)

175 posted on 06/13/2003 4:24:31 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
YOPIOS (Your Own Priest's Improvisation of Sacraments)

Whew! Close call. Just about to hang my head in shame, especially seeing the Eastern influence. But then came this:

"St. Gregory's Episcopal Church is located on Potrero Hill in San Francisco, California."

Says it all!

176 posted on 06/13/2003 4:30:09 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: saradippity
we are asked to bless something or other .... There is something very pagan,occultic and Nazilike going on in our church.

That's a firtst for me! Is this done only in your church or throughout your diocese? Under what guise is it done? Is it sanctioned by your bishop?

At what point in time were laity accorded the ability to bless others? Perhaps, you can learn something from this link:

IS YOUR MASS VALID?

Specifically, in the area of:

5.13 Priest and Laity Mixing Roles

The mixing of roles between priests and laity has degraded so far that a specific document was promulgated to address this issue. It is titled Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest (Ecclesiae de Mysterio). Vatican II has always clearly defined the role of priest and laity.

You will find the link to this document at the link I just posted. Good Luck and let us know what happens.

177 posted on 06/13/2003 4:31:32 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: TotusTuus
This is where you'll be if Pope Piel is not elevated!!!
178 posted on 06/13/2003 4:33:01 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: TotusTuus; drstevej
From your link:

"...to the glory of God our Mothering Father! Amen."

Say what???

Saturday 5pm: Intergenerational Liturgy

As opposed to???

Okay, I've got to stop now.

179 posted on 06/13/2003 4:41:10 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: TotusTuus
Another fun footnote....

{102} Current fashion favors sending the remaining bread and wine for consumption offstage; but we are not done with them yet! We will shortly set the people's offerings of money and food for the poor alongside them on the table. Later the people will finish the bread and wine there along with cakes, cookies, coffee and juices-and champagne on occasion-as an extension of the eucharistic feast.

180 posted on 06/13/2003 4:46:07 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Don't scare me like that!! I nearly emailed them a complaint ....


"The one thing truly worthwhile is becoming God's friend."  --  Saint Gregory of Nyssa

Do they charge admission?

181 posted on 06/13/2003 4:54:00 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur; american colleen
**But, they can still stand around the altar.**

In this Archdiocese, according to what I hear, the EEMs will come up after the priest has taken Communion to receive (be the first in line); then they will go get the cup of wine or chalice of hosts and go to their designated spot. No standing around the altar. We have some people going to the training at the end of the month so I can let you know for sure then.

It may be up to the descretion of each Arch/bishop, however.
182 posted on 06/13/2003 5:02:07 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
The new G. I. R. M. (Including Adaptations for the Dioceses of the United States of America)

And the new G. I. R. M. without the Americn Diocese adapatations

Questions and Answers about the General Instructions for the Roman Missal

G. I. R. M. adapatations (American) approved by the Holy See

General Instruction of the Roman Missal [G. I. R. M.]

Bishop: "Let chaos storm! When will it stop, change after change in liturgy? Never!"

The Return of the Latin Mass?

Liturgical Renewal ordered by Vatican II

183 posted on 06/13/2003 5:04:43 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: asformeandformyhouse
Dietary restrictions?.....hmmmmmm......


Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."

When James says to abstain from things strangled, and from blood what does he mean?




184 posted on 06/13/2003 5:19:35 PM PDT by NinjaDetective
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Bruskewicz on World Over Live right now - why don't you call in or e-mail them?
185 posted on 06/13/2003 5:23:31 PM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 181 | View Replies]

Comment #186 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation
It may be up to the descretion of each Arch/bishop, however.

Oh, please .... NO!!! Not the bishops! We'll be stuck forever in EEM world here in Albany if Hubbard has any say in this matter.

187 posted on 06/13/2003 7:53:03 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Oh, please .... NO!!! Not the bishops!

Reminds me of the line in "O, Brother Where Art Thou?"

"Oh George, not the livestock."

188 posted on 06/13/2003 7:57:55 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
21. QUERY 1: After communion should the faithful be seated or not?

REPLY: After communion they may either kneel, stand, or sit. Accordingly the GIRM no. 21 gives this rule: "The people sit. . .if this seems useful during the period of silence after communion." Thus it is a matter of option, not obligation. The GIRM no. 121, should, therefore, be interpreted to match no. 21: Not 10 (1974) 407.

It has always been the practice in the NY dioceses that one remains kneeling until the Eucharist is returned to the Tabernacle, the door closed, locked and the EEM or priest has returned to their seat before the congregation sits down in the pews.

This is usually followed by a suitable choral piece which allows the congregation to reflect on the gift they have just received. After the piece has ended, the congregation stands for the final prayers.

189 posted on 06/13/2003 7:59:45 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Why is the tabernacle locked?
190 posted on 06/13/2003 8:04:58 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
But, they can still stand around the altar.

This is at odds with Ecclesia De Mysterio, which lists among practices "to be avoided and eliminated":

- extraordinary ministers receiving Holy Communion apart from the other faithful as though concelebrants

191 posted on 06/13/2003 10:42:37 PM PDT by B Knotts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: B Knotts
extraordinary ministers receiving Holy Communion apart from the other faithful as though concelebrants

Concelebrants take the Body in their hands, and the cup in their hands. We don't do that in our parish, even though the ministers are gathered behind the celebrant.

Logistics in a large parish are important, and having the EMs down in the congregation would be time-consuming, plus it would not recognize the unique ministry they perform.

192 posted on 06/13/2003 11:03:06 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 191 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Why is the tabernacle locked?

You always ask such excellent questions!

The legislation of the Gode on the tabernacle is contained in the three canons 1268, 1269, and 1271. The first speaks of the place where the Blessed Sacrament should be reserved, or where the tabernacle should be placed; the second, of the tabernacle itself, of its position, of its construction and its ornamentation; and the third, of the lamp before the tabernacle.

To complete this subject, mention must be made of a regulation contained in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum, according to which the Blessed Sacrament is to be removed from the altar at which the bishop solemnly pontificates. The four paragraphs of canon 1269 read as follows:

1. The Blessed Sacrament is to be kept in an immovable tabernacle in the middle of the altar.

2. The tabernacle is to be skillfully constructed and safely locked, fittingly decorated according to the liturgical rules, kept free from other objects, and so carefully guarded that there is no danger of sacriligious profanation.

3. For any reason that seems good to the Ordinary, the Blessed Sacrament may be reserved elsewhere at night, but in a quite safe and fitting place, and always on a corporal.

4. The key to the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved is to be guarded carefully, and the responsibility for carrying out this law rests with the priest who is in charge of the church or oratory.

The second paragraph of this canon contains five different directions on as many different points. The first matter referred to is the construction of the tabernacle, about which it says that it should be of good craftsmanship, made skillfully and beautifully. Nothing is said about the material out of which the tabernacle should be made. It may be of wood, stone or metal, and the more precious the material is, the more becoming the tabernacle will be. The second point demands that the tabernacle be securely closed all around. This requires that the door should be provided with lock and key. The third point concerns the adornment of the tabernacle. It must be becoming, in accordance with the liturgical laws. The principal prescriptions in this regard, as contained in the Roman Ritual, the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Bishops and Regulars, and of Rites, and in the works on sacred liturgy, demand that a corporal be laid inside, on which the Blessed Sacrament is to be placed, that the interior walls be lined with silk, silver, gold, or other good material, and that the exterior or door be covered with a veil. This veil may be either white or of the color of the office of the day. However, on All Souls' day, at funerals, and other such occasions, when the Mass is said in black vestments, the veil should be, not black, but purple.

The fourth point prescribes that nothing be kept in the tabernacle except the Blessed Sacrament. This section probably has reference to a former custom of having sacred relics kept in the tabernacle. This was forbidden by a decree of the Sacred Congregation of Bishops and Regulars, 3 May, 1693. The fifth point recommends that the tabernacle be so vigilantly guarded as to exclude all danger of profanation.

Canon 1271, which speaks of the lamp that should burn before the tabernacle, reads as follows:

At least one lamp is to be kept burning day and night before the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is kept. In this lamp olive oil or beeswax is to be used; but where olive oil is not available, with the sanction of the Ordinary other oils may be used, but they should be vegetable oils, if possible.

This canon prescribes that at least one lamp should burn continually before the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is contained. This lamp may be right in front of the tabernacle, hanging down from the ceiling or vault of the sanctuary, as is the case in many parish churches; or it may be fastened with a bracket on the side wall; or it may be placed on the altar alongside the tabernacle. The fuel should be either olive oil or beeswax; if oil is used, and olive oil cannot be had, then the Ordinary may permit the use of other oils, of vegetable oils if at all possible. Among these latter may be mentioned linseed oil and sesame oil. The use of electric light, which was permitted during the late war by a decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, 23 November, 1916, is excluded now by this canon, and so it should not be used. However, electric or even gas light may be used on the altar as an aid to reading and for ornamental purposes.

All these detailed prescriptions of the Gode show very distinctly the Church's desire to show in all things the profoundest respect to the Holy Eucharist. This desire springs from the abiding faith in the real presence of our Lord in His Holy Sacrament.

FRANCIS J. SCHAEFER

St. Paul, Minnesota.

ENDNOTES

1 Matth. 26:26 ff.; Mark 14:22 ff.; Luke 22:19 f.: I Cor. 11:23 ff.

2 Lib. VIII, cap. I.

2 Rome, 1718.

193 posted on 06/14/2003 4:09:19 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 190 | View Replies]

To: NYer
***All these detailed prescriptions of the Gode show very distinctly the Church's desire to show in all things the profoundest respect to the Holy Eucharist. This desire springs from the abiding faith in the real presence of our Lord in His Holy Sacrament.***

Interesting read, thanks. Seems like many Ampriests, Ambishops would do well to read this.

***1. The Blessed Sacrament is to be kept in an immovable tabernacle in the middle of the altar. ***

Unless it doesn't look good in our newfangled archtecturally fancy-schmansy cathedrals.

***You always ask such excellent questions! ***

Thanks. Native curiousity. The thought of locking the consscrated Host into a small container just sounds strange to this Zwinglian.

I do see the point from the RCC perspective. (That's why I'll make a great Pope.)
194 posted on 06/14/2003 4:32:58 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Bumpus ad summum
195 posted on 06/14/2003 5:23:32 AM PDT by Dajjal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
The thought of locking the consscrated Host into a small container just sounds strange to this Zwinglian.

In a homily I heard last week, the young priest looked towards the Tabernacle and recalled a lesson taught to him in seminary. His instructor explained that inside that small box was God Himself.

Understand, Steve, that no locked box can contain God. As guardians of His greatest gift to us, His Real Presence in the Eucharist, we take whatever measures are necessary to prevent someone from taking these consecrated hosts, to defile them.

196 posted on 06/14/2003 6:40:36 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies]

To: NYer
I understand, it still is strange. I don't mean this as an attack, but the thought of Jesus Christ locked in thousands of small tablernacles all over the world waiting the next mass makes my hair hurt.

When the tabernacle or ark in the OT was defiled, God struck the person dead. There were no locks placed on the Holy of Holies or the ark of the covenant!

I understand the RCC's desire that the Host not be defiled and I realize there are people who would desecrate the Host out of malevolent intent. So from a practical perspective I understand the lock and key requirement. The symbolism just befuddles me.

-- Pope Piel (putting curiosity back into the curia)
197 posted on 06/14/2003 6:52:05 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Concelebrants take the Body in their hands, and the cup in their hands. We don't do that in our parish, even though the ministers are gathered behind the celebrant.

I realize that; the point is that extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are not to receive apart from the other faithful, as if they were concelebrants.

It's not really a matter of logistics. We used to have the EEMs all lined up by the altar, too. Our new priest immediately put an end to that, and now the EEMs stand in a different location, not by the altar. It doesn't take any extra time, and it complies with the wishes expressed in the instruction I cited.

198 posted on 06/14/2003 7:10:48 AM PDT by B Knotts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
The symbolism just befuddles me.

The last thing I would ever want to do, is befuddle you. Perhaps this comparative analysis from a Jewish convert, expresses it better. (befuddle = great word!). As for the image of thousands of Tabernacles all over the world, even catholics recognize the omnipresence of God. It is a great comfort to us, however, knowing that we can ALWAYS walk into a catholic church in any part of the world and be in the (Real) presence of our Lord. This transcends the spiritual notion of omnipresent.

* * *

Every Catholic church has a tabernacle, where lives the Word Made Flesh. In the synagogues, the tabernacle holds the Word of God in ancient Torah scrolls. Beside the Catholic tabernacle, and beside the synagogue tabernacle, is a candle. Both go back to the time of Moses. Ex 40:35 "The glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle … For throughout all their journeys the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel." Today we still see that fire, now a steady candle, and know as then that God is inside.

That blood-red tabernacle candle, reminding us that Jesus who died to redeem us is present, reminds Jews as well of the yahrzeit or memorial candles they light each year to remember the departed.

During our Shepherd's time, synagogue worship consisted of prayers, psalms, and Torah readings. The Torah readings were based on a three-year cycle, starting on the Sabbath after the Feast of Tabernacles and reading a portion each week until the end three years later on the last day of the same feast. In that way the entire Torah was read aloud to be sure every Jew was exposed to it. Holy Mother Church continues the Jewish tradition with Sunday Gospel readings on a three year cycle. Year A relies on Matthew's Gospel, Year B on Mark's, and Year C on Luke's Gospel. These readings cover over 7,000 verses, including nearly all of the New Testament, to help us know our sacred Scripture.

199 posted on 06/14/2003 7:15:51 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 197 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Public reading of scripture is great. Especially when supplemented with private reading and study of Scripture.

***As for the image of thousands of Tabernacles all over the world, even catholics recognize the omnipresence of God.***

Isn't the appropriate word here, "multi-presence" not "omnipresence" of God. There are a finite number of RC tabernacles usually miles apart from one another.

The OT imagery of the Tabernacle is a picture of Christ. With Christ's death on the cross the Old Covenant give way to the New. The shadow gives way to reality. We (believers) are now the temple of God [1 Cor. 3:16].

200 posted on 06/14/2003 8:33:47 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 199 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-203 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson