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Dancing Our Prayers Away?
TCR News ^ | June 2003 | Carrie Tomko

Posted on 06/12/2003 6:57:13 AM PDT by NYer

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To: asformeandformyhouse
Selling your children into bondage?

There are days I'd entertain an offer.

Look. I posted the Salvation Army timbrel as a bit of a tongue in cheek post. I don't dance in worship OR in prayer. Okay?

But you cannot provide for me a Biblical source that expressly forbids dance in worship. Can you?

51 posted on 06/12/2003 11:30:07 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Salvation
Your Goofness!

[mild admonishment for firt time offense]
52 posted on 06/12/2003 11:30:17 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
*8I did close the garage door on a frog this morning.**

I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type!
53 posted on 06/12/2003 11:30:44 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: drstevej
is that my official title, now?
54 posted on 06/12/2003 11:32:35 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Corin Stormhands
But you cannot provide for me a Biblical source that expressly forbids dance in worship. Can you?

You mistake the silence of the scriptures as authorizing. When that which is authorized is mentioned, all others do not need to be mentioned.

55 posted on 06/12/2003 11:39:57 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: asformeandformyhouse
You mistake the silence of the scriptures as authorizing.

No more than you mistake their silence as prohibiting.

Scripture is clear that Christ was the final sacrifice. Scripture is clear that all foods are clean.

56 posted on 06/12/2003 11:49:58 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Loyalist; NYer
The Catholic Bishops are expected to discuss a position paper on liturgical dance when they meet in Dallas this weekend,

Okay, what am I missing here? The GIRM specifically forbids it. What's left to discuss?

I wish I was closer to Dallas. These guys need a serious freeping, IN PERSON.

57 posted on 06/12/2003 11:58:21 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Corin Stormhands
No more than you mistake their silence as prohibiting.

To authorize is to give permission for. If it's not authorized, we don't have permission and do so without authority from God. Possibly to our eternal peril.

We understand this concept in everyday life. When the President gave the order to start the attack on Iraq, would the Generals have been authorized to attack Canada (not that it might not be a good idea, mind you)? Would they have been justified by saying to the President "You didn't say not to"?

58 posted on 06/12/2003 11:59:24 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: asformeandformyhouse; drstevej
If it's not authorized, we don't have permission and do so without authority from God.

Please site chapter and verse for your permission to post on FreeRepublic.

Can't do it? May God have mercy on your immortal soul.

59 posted on 06/12/2003 12:03:17 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: american colleen; saradippity; sandyeggo; Salvation
Hows about you compose a loose idea for a letter and I'll (and anyone else interested) can use that?

Thank you, Colleen for your support. I have emailed Mark Shea and asked him to address this topic on his blog. In my email, I have given him liks to the TCR news story, the Notitiae issued by the USCCB, a copy of my letter to the diocese demonstrating that liturgical dance rendered the mass illicit, after which they conceded, and an invitation to lurk in this forum to meet the next pope.

I am more than happy to share my 2nd letter to the diocese with anyone who wishes to use it as a basis for addressing their bishop. Just let me know.

60 posted on 06/12/2003 12:03:49 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Please site chapter and verse for your permission to post on FreeRepublic.

No need. Posting on FR is not worship to God. Although some do it religiously.

61 posted on 06/12/2003 12:07:30 PM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: asformeandformyhouse
Still, at the end of the day, you can find no scripture prohibiting dance. A worship element that was indeed used in the Old Testament.

David danced before the LORD, and if the Spirit moves me, I might too.

62 posted on 06/12/2003 12:10:23 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Still, at the end of the day, you can find no scripture prohibiting dance

It's not the end of the day I'm concerned with, it's the end of time. I worship God as he authorizes and only as he authorizes. Anything more is speculative. And for me, I'm not going to risk it.

63 posted on 06/12/2003 12:18:45 PM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: asformeandformyhouse
Well unless you think God's gonna give us more scripture, you won't find it at the end of time either.
64 posted on 06/12/2003 12:23:13 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Well unless you think God's gonna give us more scripture, you won't find it at the end of time either.

I was referring to judgement day. But you knew that.

65 posted on 06/12/2003 12:29:16 PM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Okay, what am I missing here? The GIRM specifically forbids it. What's left to discuss?

Short, sweet, and to the point.

Maybe God is calling the Bishops in Dallas to listen to a new Judge for correction of present failings, such as wimpishness. A woman, no less. It would be perfect to fit in with their attempts at showing themselves to be "politically correct".

After which, we all here would write you a new canticle so the virtuous act would be remembered for centuries to come. If need be, we all can help spring for the airline tickets!

P.S. Feel free to bring Jael to Dallas along with yourself.

66 posted on 06/12/2003 12:39:38 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: Salvation
***is that my official title, now?***

Hardly, my son.

I was asking that rather than calling me a goof, it is proper protocol to refer to me as Your Goofyness. It shows respect, similar to Your Fishyness.
67 posted on 06/12/2003 12:39:47 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
I trust that the Bishops will not abandon this sensible teaching when they discuss liturgical dance.

Wish I could say the same.

There's trust, and then there's prudence!

68 posted on 06/12/2003 12:41:50 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: TotusTuus
***Feel free to bring Jael to Dallas along with yourself. ***

And a liberal supply of tentpegs for Jael.
69 posted on 06/12/2003 12:42:58 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
And a liberal supply of tentpegs for Jael.

But, of course! Too many Baraks' there. They need to learn how it's done!

70 posted on 06/12/2003 12:50:57 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; drstevej; CCWoody; BlackElk
Your services are needed.

It is alleged that during the time of the Scholastics, such profound questions such as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" were genterated. While i seriously that this particular question was entertained, contrary to popular opinion, it has in fact, activated my thinking processes.

i propose a Church-wide "World Liturgical Dance Recital" to be held in an appropriate location. Make attendance manditory under pain (Literal pain on my watch) of excommunication.

His Fishy Essence, Pope Piel I will even provide a nice enclosed facility with such luxuries as a heated dance floor...slowly heated to about 2000 degrees F, and made of stainless steel plate, perhaps with a non stick teflon coating to facilitate easy cleaning. We will simply test the physical condition of the Liturgical dancers.

i am, at this reading, still considering how to deal with those who decide to repent, and am researching the most painful, yet effective burn treatments possible.

i will ask for your assistance in the selection of appropriate Liturgical music for the event. Perhaps something that is a tribute to Dante's Inferno from the Divine Comedy

71 posted on 06/12/2003 1:03:54 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Grand Inquisitioner for Pope Piel I, The pocket fisher of men..."Feed my (piranna) fish")
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To: Corin Stormhands
Then go ahead and do it. Just don't sully and degrade MY Church with it.
72 posted on 06/12/2003 1:05:22 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: Thorondir
Just don't sully and degrade MY Church with it.

I'm simply crushed by your lack of confidence in my dancing ability.

73 posted on 06/12/2003 1:07:24 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
If you say so, then I am sure you are a great dancer. But no degree of excellent dancing can compete with the solemn miracle of the Blessed Sacrament. They would go together like Crem Brulee and Sauerkraut.
74 posted on 06/12/2003 1:15:56 PM PDT by Thorondir
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Comment #75 Removed by Moderator

To: Thorondir
Well, if you would read all my posts, you would actually see that I don't participate in liturgical dance. And I would not think it appropriate during communion.

I just don't see where in scripture it is forbidden.

76 posted on 06/12/2003 1:18:03 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Oh, C_D_L, magnificent! Reminds me of the marathon dances of "They Shoot Horses"... Yowsirr, yowsirr, yowsirr!

[Pope Piel swells with pride at the selection of an Inquisitor with such dedication and innovation.]
78 posted on 06/12/2003 1:21:17 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
You know, i was thinking of a nice little touch. Above the dance floor entrance (which will be a closed armoured door during the "performance of pennance", should read a sign to set the mood. i was thinking, in setting the musical motiff: Abandon hope,
All Ye Who Enter Here

79 posted on 06/12/2003 1:32:35 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Grand Inquisitioner for Pope Piel I, The pocket fisher of men..."Feed my (piranna) fish")
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To: Thorondir; Corin Stormhands
They would go together like Crem Brulee and Sauerkraut.

This is getting to the point. There are different styles of, and reasons for dancing. There are different times and conditions for doing so. While some cultures have developed high end "liturgical" dancing for religious purposes (even David danced before the Ark), ours hasn't.

Simplify. Ask yourself, "If I had been at the Last Supper or at Calvary 2K years ago, would I have danced?" If so, what would it have looked like?

Dancing for extra-liturgical services in the Catholic Church? Possibly.

Dancing at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? NO! (and everybody thinks it stands for "Novus Ordo")

80 posted on 06/12/2003 1:34:13 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: sandyeggo; NYer; american colleen
AC: ***NYer, OK, maybe not the whole thread (else they think we are nuts with a Calvinist at the helm)***

SE: ***LOL! That would be tough to explain - but, since I'm a Cardinalette, I could help. :)***

Did you read Malachi Martin's, The Final Conclave?    

Martin (prior to the elevation of JPI) set forth a fictional scenario in which the Cardinals were so hopelessly deadlocked that the only resolution was a bold departure, the selection of a pope with a bold new agenda (in his case a pope who advocated the RCC divest it's political and economic power and return to a purely spiritual agenda - i.e. Malachi Martin's own viewpoint).

I'm counting on a Final Conclave deja vu. The various groups will be so deadlocked that in desperation they opt for a innovative solution, a Calvinist Pope with a sense of humor and a cool family.

Also, ever seen the Peter Seller's movie, "Being There"? Chauncey Gardner will be my paradigm. In him everyone saw in him that for which were looking.

 

81 posted on 06/12/2003 1:40:16 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Salvation
***Hardly, my son.***

Good thing that wasn't spoken ex cathedra, OOps!

82 posted on 06/12/2003 1:44:14 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: TotusTuus
I think I should make a huge poster "Rome has forbidden liturgical dance. What's left to discuss?" Then I will stand in the middle of the street, a la a Catholic Norma Rae, silently holding up a sign "the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" (or something likewise appropriate) and confront each Bishop as they try to enter the meeting. Especially Mahony.

I am open to other suggestions.
83 posted on 06/12/2003 1:45:41 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: TotusTuus
"Are you in open schism?" or "Will you obey Rome?" might make good signs too.
84 posted on 06/12/2003 1:47:50 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: asformeandformyhouse; NYer
As to the Catholics, all regulation of the Liturgy is reserved to the Holy See (really, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Pope.)

Frankly, I don't think this will go too far at the meeting. The best the lit-wonks will get will be a "table" for further study--and they may not get even that much.

"Further study" means that it will not surface again for at least 6 months, likely a year--by which time many more of the lit-wonk/poofter crowd will have "retired."

85 posted on 06/12/2003 1:49:34 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Desdemona; drstevej
Mozart's "Dies Irae" might be good. Lotsa high-speed steppin' to that tune, and it's in a minor key. Same w/Verdi's "Dies Irae."

Besides, the text is SO apropos the occasion: "Day of Wrath, O That Day..."
86 posted on 06/12/2003 1:56:48 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
"Lascite ogni speranza, qui entrata."

Posted over my office entrance ...

87 posted on 06/12/2003 2:10:04 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ninenot; Desdemona; drstevej
I think Verdi's "Dies Irae" gets the point across much more effectively than Mozart's. Or anybody else's, for that matter. The opening measures really get your attention.

Dies Irae
Dies Illa
Solvet Saecula
In Favilla...

88 posted on 06/12/2003 2:11:17 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; drstevej; ninenot
I will ask for your assistance in the selection of appropriate Liturgical music for the event. Perhaps something that is a tribute to Dante's Inferno from the Divine Comedy

The Dies Irae is a good suggestion; and you can read the latin and English of and listen to Verdi's musichere. Also to be considered is the Libera Me by Verdi, also found here, which fewer people remember.

Libera me, Domine, de morte aeterna,
in die illa tremenda,
quando coeli movendi sunt et terra.
Dum venerit judicare saeculum per ignem.
Tremens factus sum ego, et timeo,
dum discussio venerit atque ventura ira.

Dies illa, dies irae, calamitatis et misariae,
dies magna et amara valde.

Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine
et lux perpetua luceat eis.

(Translation)
Deliver me, o Lord from everlasting death
on that dreadful day,
when the heavens and the earth shall be moved.
When thou shalt come to judge the world by fire.
I quake with fear and I tremble,
awaiting the day of account and the wrath to come.

That day, the day of anger, of calamity, of misery,
that great day and most bitter.

Eternal rest grant them, o lord,
and let perpetual light shine upon them.

All these are well and good. But I would suggest first off would be the obscure Apparebit Repentina Dies (translation follows the Latin below)

Apparebit repentina dies magna Domini,
fur obscura velut nocte improvisos occupans.
Brevis totus tum parebit prisci luxus saeculi,
totum simul cum clarebit praeterisse saeculum.
Clangor tubae per quaternas terrae plagas concinens,
vivos una mortuosque Christo ciet obviam.
De caelesti judex arce, majestate fulgidus,
claris angelorum choris comitatus aderit.
Erubescet orbis lunae, sol et obscurabitur,
stellae cadent pallescentes, mundi tremet ambitus.
Flamma ignis anteibit justi vultum judicis,
caelos, terras, fluctus maris et profundi devorans.
Gloriosus rex sedebit in sublimi solio;
angelorum tremebunda circumstabunt agmina.

Hujus omnes ad electi colligentur dexteram,
pravi pavent a sinistris hoedi velut fetidi.
'Ite' dicet rex a dextris 'regnum caeli sumite,
pater vobis quod paravit ante omne saeculum;
Karitate qui fraterna me juvistis pauperem,
karitatis nunc mercedem reportate divites.'
Laeti dicent 'Quando, Christe, pauperem te vidimus?
te, rex magne, vel egentem miserati fuimus?'
Magnus illis dicet judex 'Cum juvistis pauperes,
panem, domum, vestem dantes, me juvistis humilem.'
Nec tardabit a sinistris loqui justus arbiter
'In Gehennae maledicti flammas hinc discedite;
'Obsecrantem me audire despexistis mendicum,
nudo vestem non dedistis, neglexistis languidum.'
Peccatores dicent 'Christe, quando te vel pauperem,
te, rex magne, vel infirmum contemnentes sprevimus?'
Quibus contra judex altus 'Mendicanti quamdiu
opem ferre neglexistis me sprevistis improbi.'

Retro ruent tunc injusti ignes in perpetuos,
vermis quorum non moritur, ignis nec restringuitur,
Satan atro cum ministris quo tenetur carcere,
fletus ubi mugitusque, strident omnes dentibus.
Tunc fideles ad caelestem sustollentur patriam,
choros inter angelorum regni petent gaudia.
Urbis summae Jerusalem introibunt gloriam,
vera lucis atque pacis in qua fulget visio.
Xristum regem jam paterna claritate splendidum
ubi celsa beatorum contemplantur agmina.

Ydri fraudes ergo cave, infirmantes subleva,
aurum temne, fuge luxus, si vis astra petere.
Zona clara castitatis lumbos nunc praecingere,
in occursum magni regis fer ardentes lampades.

- Anon. 5th-7th century

(Translation)

The great day of the Lord will suddenly appear
like a thief in the dark of night befalling the unwary.
All the brief splendor of the ancient world then shall appear
just as it becomes clear and all the world will vanish.
The din of the trumpet sounding through the four quarters of the earth
summons the living and the dead together to meet with Christ.
From His heavenly citadel the Judge, resplendent with majesty,
will come along with shining choirs of angels.
The orb of the moon will redden, the sun will go dark,
stars will dim and fall, the course of the earth will tremble.
Flame of fire will go before the Will of the Just Judge,
devouring the heavens and earth, the flows of the sea and of the depths.
The glorious King on high will sit on the throne
surrounded by quaking hosts of angels.

All the chosen shall gather to His right;
the wicked will tremble at His left like stinking goats.
"Go," the King will say to the right, "take up the Kingdom of Heaven
which the Father has prepared for you before all time.
Ye who helped me with brotherly love when I was poor
now, wealthy, take back your reward of love."
Happy, they will say, "When, O Christ, did we view you as pauper
or, O Great King, did we pity Thee when needy?"
The Great Judge will say to them, "When ye did help the poor
and gave food, clothing and shelter ye helped me when I was low."
Nor shall the Just Referee delay, He will say to the left,
"Depart ye accursed into the flames of Hell,
"Ye did despise hearing me as a beggar beseeching,
ye clothed me not when naked, and neglected me when weak."
The sinners shall say, "O Christ, when did we Thee as pauper,
O Great King, or when sick contemptuously despise thee?"
The High Judge will reply, "As long as ye to the beggar
help denied, did ye wicked despise me."

Then the unjust are swept back into eternal fires
with immortal worms and limitless fires
Where Satan with his ministers is held in the dark prison
where everybody weeps, groans and gnashes their teeth.
Then the faithful are taken away to the Heavenly Fatherland
among choirs of angels they seek the joys of the Kingdom.
They will enter into the glory of the highest city of Jerusalem
in which shines a true vision of light and peace.
Where Christ the splendid King in fatherly glory
is contemplated by the exalted hosts of the blessed.

Therefore beware the cunning of Ydros,* support the sick,
reject gold, flee debauchery if you want to seek the stars.
Gird your loins with the pure girdle of chastity
Bring burning torches to the meeting with the Great King.

*Ydros: "a watersnake, and hence, the Devil."
- Translated by Bernard S. Greenberg

And then the doulful Parce Domine with the music here needs to be in this service as well:

Parce, Dómine, parce pópulotuo:
ne in aetérnum irascáris nobis.

1 Flectámus íram víndicem,
Plorémus ante Júdicem;
Clamémus óre súpplici,
Dicámus ómnes cérnui:

2 Nóstris mális offéndimus
Túam Déus cleméntiam
Effúnde nóbis désuper
Remíssor indulgéntiam.

Parce, Dómine, parce pópulotuo:
ne in aetérnum irascáris nobis.

3 Dans témpus acceptábile,
Da lacrimárum rívulis
Laváre córdis víctimam,
Quam laéta adúrat cáritas.

4 Audi, benígne Cónditor,
Nóstras préces cum flétibus
In hoc sácro jejúnio,
Fúsas quadragenário.

Parce, Dómine, parce pópulotuo:
ne in aetérnum irascáris nobis.

After those four, its hard to believe there'd be much time left for more.

89 posted on 06/12/2003 2:46:15 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ArrogantBustard; Hermann the Cherusker
Since the ICEL types believe that everybody goes to heaven, they have ignored the Dies Irae, since it doesn't fit in with their views of the afterlife.

Perhaps this is all for the best, because had they turned their attentions to it, they would have come up with something bland, awkward, and unsingable. Something like this, perhaps:

DIES IRAE: THE ICEL VERSION

What a bad day! What a sad day!
The prophets said it'd be a bad day!
Heaven and earth are burned away!

The people's hearts are full of fear
When God from heaven comes to us near
To make his final answer clear!

The trumpet makes a lovely sound
Through the tombs it travels round
Before God's throne we all are bound.

Death gets hit, and nature shakes
All of nature soon awakes
A quick response to God it makes.

From His book of perfect pages
Where all was written from all ages
We will be paid our hard-earned wages.

When the Lord sits on his throne
All our errors will be known
Nothing will be left alone.

What will a weak person like me say?
Who will help me out today?
When good people are not OK?

Yahweh, Lord, Who has all power;
Who saved us in the darkest hour;
Help us out in our last hour!

Think, Good Lord, of our salvation
From which came your incarnation
Lead us not to condemnation.

You looked for me when you were tired
On the cross, where you expired
Will your goodness be inspired?

Good Lord, for our sin and failing
Forgive us now, for we are ailing
Before we're punished and left wailing.

I am responsible; I am not lying;
Mistakes were made, I am not denying;
Do not make me start moaning and crying.

You saved the weak woman from her fall;
You forgave the good thief's errors all;
You give me hope above it all.

It doesn't help to pray and sigh;
With God's grace I will comply
So in the fire I won't die.

Put me with your favourite sheep
Don't put me with the goats to sleep
Your right hand my soul will keep.

When the unfair are tripped up
As the flames are burning up
Call in the saints to keep me up.

Here I stand with contrite heart
See me play a sorry part
Help me as I fall apart.

O sad day of grief and crying
From the dust of earth are flying
People for their time of trying
God, have mercy, without denying.

Blessed Lord, Your mercy keep
Give them all eternal sleep.
Amen.

90 posted on 06/12/2003 3:44:45 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; Salvation; american colleen; Domestic Church; ninenot; Diago
Okay, what am I missing here? The GIRM specifically forbids it. What's left to discuss?

*Sigh ....* Why bother to post threads when no one bothers to read them.

Deborah, I owe you an explanation since you are not on my bump list. The others went through this experience with me first hand in January. YES, it is banned! However ... (and you know darn well that with the modernists, interpretation of the GIRM has lead to MANY abuses), where the bishops issued a Notitiae banning liturgical dance in the US, the also said they would "commend it for further study". Now, when I unsuccessfully confronted my pastor to block his attempt to introduce liturgical dance to our parish, my next resort was the diocesan Office for Liturgy and Worship. In her response to me, she noted the above-mentioned clause. HOWEVER, she neglected to include the rest of their statement which defined under what conditions the study was to be conducted.

It should come as NO SURPRISE to you that many dioceses across the US have "tested" out liturgical dance. One of the parishes in my diocese earned a full page spread in the diocesan newspaper, on how liturgical dance brought the youth back to mass! They are so excited about it that they now want to make videos to be distributed across the US!! Liturgical dance is illicit!

It is these small codicils, and 'overlooked' instructions that are now bringing this topic to the forum of discussion! Many parishes have implemented liturgical dance and want it to continue! I was able to block it in my parish by citing USCCB and Vatican documentation, and quoting Canon Law which stipulates that ALL catholics are entitled to a valid liturgy. They tried to work around my arguments by citing some arcane VCII document on "multiculturism". Multiculturism? Here in Latham, NY? I think not!

I DO support liturgical dance (which, by Vatican rulings, is NEVER allowed within the liturgy of the Mass) in those countries where it has been part of their worship service for 100's, even 1000's of years. We witnessed it in Mexico City, at the canonization of St. Juan Diego. It was beautifully and tastefully performed as part of the procession into the church. It was part of Juan Diego's heritage ... and, in that context, makes perfect sense!! What the "modernists" want to do is apply that permission to western culture where 'dance' has a very different connotation. That is why and how the directives from the USCCB were originally written in 1975. That was nearly 30 years ago. There are those, literally chomping at the bit, dancers and costumes already in place ready and waiting for the green light to proceed. Over my dead body!

Notice how this article begins:

The Catholic Bishops are expected to discuss a position paper on liturgical dance when they meet in Dallas this weekend, according to an article in the June 8, 2003 Stow (Ohio) Sentry, which unfortunately is not available online.

Were it not for the author of this story, Carrie Tomko, and TCRNews which published it, WE WOULD NEVER KNOW ABOUT THIS! (apologies for screaming .... I am so incensed!). AND, which bishop is bringing this to the table? Cleveland Bishop Anthony M. Pilla, responsible for some of the most outrageous abuses in the catholic church in the US! And we thought Mahony was bad.

And, Deborah, this is how it is done! This is how illicit acts are sanctioned. We must address it now!

Bottom line .... who amongst you is willing to allow dancers into your parish church to draw attention away from The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Hmmmmm? Why wait for the bishops to sanction this? SHOUT with all your might now!! There is no other person invited to speak on our behalf so we must do it ourselves. Mark my words, if this is approved, you will see the total deterioration of the catholic church in the western world. We, who have remained faithful to the Magisterium, will have little recourse insofar as where we celebrate mass.

My apologies to ALL of you for this tirade. As you can see, this is indeed my hot button. My hands are shaking! I can't imagine, for the life of me, how any bishop could sanction such a practice in front of Our Lord, present in the Tabernacle.

91 posted on 06/12/2003 4:08:03 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: TotusTuus
There's trust, and then there's prudence!

Sorry for not including ... see my post #91

92 posted on 06/12/2003 4:13:20 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
Great rant. Theological liberals (RCC ad Prot) are as unprincipaled as democrats. They demand you play by the rules while they are bending and breaking every rule that blocks their path.
93 posted on 06/12/2003 4:18:45 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
"My hands are shaking! I can't imagine, for the life of me, how any bishop could sanction such a practice in front of Our Lord, present in the Tabernacle."

Because he has lost the faith. No reason for alarm; it happens every day. People go to Heaven, and more go to Hell.

I was wondering though, can you provide a basis for why you don't like it? Other than the fact that it is not approved? That it is not approved is fact, which both you and I would agree upon.

Can you supply propter quid (reasoned fact)? Why is it no good?
94 posted on 06/12/2003 5:42:29 PM PDT by pascendi
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To: drstevej; american colleen; Salvation; sandyeggo; Canticle_of_Deborah
They demand you play by the rules while they are bending and breaking every rule that blocks their path.

Thank you, Steve, for your understanding. When I read the story this morning, a black veil descended over me. I fought so hard and valiantly to prevent this in my own parish. My pastor called me to task on writing to the diocesan office. There was NO WAY I could sit back and idly ignore what was happening around me.

It is bad enough that our (liberal) bishop has 'postponed' confirmation to grade 11, when most teens have entered one of the most turbulent phases of their lives - self identity. Personally, I tend to believe that he intentionally chose that stage of life.

11th grade is considered THE most difficult year of high school here in NY. These kids are required to pass not only their classes but a lengthy series of state mandated regents exams, some of which encompass two days. 11th grade is when they reach 16, the age in NYS that qualifies them to apply for a learner's permit to drive. The rush is on ... who will be the first to obtain a driver's license and with it, a 'license' to freedom. 11th grade is the period when many of these teens tackle their first jobs. It is the year for so many firsts ... high school ring, graduation pictures for next year's yearbook, driving to school, school electives, sports, extra curricula activities. Those who do attend religious instruction are burned out and tired by the time they show up. They have studied religion since grade K!

Last year was the "year of shock" for so many catholics as they discovered that priests had abused minors. And who did they abuse? Teens! The young and the culpable! To be given the responsibility of forming these youths and preparing them for Confirmation is a matter that I take seriously. To discover that, in my own parish, the Director for Religious Education AND the pastor, both agree that THESE are the youth to whom they will introduce an 'illicit' act, is shocking beyond words! Those who have come to Rel. Ed. do so out of total respect and trust. They TRUST that the DRE and the pastor are leading them along the RIGHT path! Who am I to sit there and feign ignorance? My conscience simply would NOT allow this!

How do I calm myself down? I am so upset! Thank you for the amusing posts to this thread. This is one time when the humor did not hit me.

Steve, YOU cannot imagine the significance of this to the catholics in this forum. You can't, because you don't yet understand the Real Presence. If you can, for a minute, imagine Christ on the cross, having been scourged, having been crowned with thorns, having been required to carry his cross through the streets .... an innocent lamb. When Pilate offered to release a prisoner, who did the crowds call for? Barabas! Jesus preached nothing but the truth and was rejected for it.

This is the Christ we, as catholics, venerate! He suffered and died for OUR sins. The General Instructions of the Roman Missal MANDATE that at every mass, there is to be a cross with a corpus, on or near the altar, visible to ALL the congregants. (I am still battling this with my pastor but that is another story). Why? Who is this Man?

Isaiah
Chapter 53
1
Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2
1 He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him.
3
2 He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.
4
3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.
6
We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.
7
Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.
8
Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people,
9
A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
10
4 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.
11
Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear.
12
Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is our MOST cherished gift from Christ! Everything else pales in comparison. How can we sit back and disregard HIS presence, by allowing abusers to sanction some new novelty. The bishops wisely spoke, 30 years ago when they wrote:

"Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.

For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations. "

Could you, were you alive then, dance below the cross bearing the Savior of the World, the Son of God? Could you?

95 posted on 06/12/2003 5:52:03 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: pascendi
Why is it no good?

See the following post #95

96 posted on 06/12/2003 5:59:07 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Loyalist
Blessed Lord, Your mercy keep

Thank you!, Loyalist, for posting this!! My heart is heavy, the tears run strong! How can they (the bishops) have forgotten? Oh, what has become of us?

97 posted on 06/12/2003 6:04:30 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
NYer, even as one who is a non-Catholic, I understand what the Real Presence means to Catholics theologically and personally and fully understand why prancing ladies are totally out of bounds at the Mass.

As to grade 11. My son just finished the 11th grade (our daughter is almost 21 so I went through it with her too), and I know the tensions. My church does not do confirmation (we are not pedobaptists) so the age when people are baptised is linked to their credible profession of faith in Christ. Incidentally, I baptised my son when he was a 11th grader. For him that was the appropriate time (for a number of reasons).

BTW, my comment "nice rant" was a compliment. A rant is fully warranted when a vital issue is at stake.

Blessing to you amid your vexation.

Steve
98 posted on 06/12/2003 6:06:22 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Abandon hope, All Ye Who Enter Here

LOL! I often wonder how Dante would configure his 'Inferno" with today's leaders. God help us!

99 posted on 06/12/2003 6:08:26 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
"Could you, were you alive then, dance below the cross bearing the Savior of the World, the Son of God? Could you?"

Good enough for me.
100 posted on 06/12/2003 6:09:43 PM PDT by pascendi
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