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Mary's Relationship with the Trinity
EWTN ^ | January 1996 | Pope John Paul II

Posted on 06/16/2003 8:41:08 PM PDT by Salvation

MARY’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRINITY
Pope John Paul II

Our Lady, who was granted the dignity of being the Mother of God, is also the favoured daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit

Mary "is endowed with the high office and dignity of the Mother of the Son of God, and therefore she is also the beloved daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit" (Lumen gentium, n. 53). With this quote from the Second Vatican Council, the Holy Father expressed in concise form the Trinitarian dimension of Marian doctrine, which was the subject of his catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 10 January. Here is a translation of his address, which was the 11th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. The eighth chapter of the Constitution Lumen gentium shows in the mystery of Christ the absolutely necessary reference to Marian doctrine. In this regard, the first words of the Introduction are significant: "Wishing in his supreme goodness and wisdom to effect the redemption of the world, 'when the fullness of time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman ... that we might receive the adoption of sons' (Gal 4:4-5)" (Lumen gentium, n. 52). This son is the Messiah awaited by the people of the Old Covenant, sent by the Father at a decisive moment of history, the "fullness of time" (Gal 4:4), which coincides with his birth in our world from a woman. She who brought the eternal Son of God to humanity can never be separated from him who is found at the centre of the divine plan carried out in history.

The primacy of Christ is shown forth in the Church, his Mystical Body: in her "the faithful are joined to Christ the Head and are in communion with all his saints" (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 52). It is Christ who draws all men to himself. Since in her maternal role she is closely united with her Son, Mary helps direct the gaze and heart of believers towards him.

She is the way that leads to Christ: indeed, she who "at the message of the angel received the Word of God in her heart and in her body" (Lumen gentium, n. 53) shows us how to receive into our lives the Son come down from heaven, teaching us to make Jesus the centre and the supreme "law" of our existence.

A unique bond between Mary and the Holy Spirit

2. Mary also helps us discover, at the origin of the whole work of salvation, the sovereign action of the Father who calls men to become sons in the one Son. Recalling the very beautiful expressions of the Letter to the Ephesians: "God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:4), the Council gives God the title "most merciful": the Son "born of a woman" is thus seen as the fruit of the Father's mercy and enables us to understand better how this Woman is the "mother of mercy".

In the same context, the Council also calls God "most wise", suggesting a particular attention to the close link between Mary and the divine wisdom, which in its mysterious plan willed the Virgin's motherhood.

3. The Council's text also reminds us of the unique bond uniting Mary with the Holy Spirit, using the words of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed which we recite in the Eucharistic liturgy: "For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man".

In expressing the unchanging faith of the Church, the Council reminds us that the marvellous incarnation of the Son took place in the Virgin Mary's womb without man's co-operation, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Introduction to the eighth chapter of Lumen gentium thus shows in a Trinitarian perspective an essential dimension of Marian doctrine. Everything in fact comes from the will of the Father, who has sent his Son into the world, revealing him to men and establishing him as the Head of the Church and the centre of history. This is a plan that was fulfilled by the Incarnation, the work of the Holy Spirit, but with the essential co-operation of a woman, the Virgin Mary, who thus became an integral part in the economy of communicating the Trinity to mankind.

4. Mary's threefold relationship with the divine Persons is confirmed in precise words and with a description of the characteristic relationship which links the Mother of the Lord to the Church: "She is endowed with the high office and dignity of the Mother of the Son of God, and therefore she is also the beloved daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit" (Lumen gentium, n. 53).

Mary's fundamental dignity is that of being "Mother of the Son", which is expressed in Christian doctrine and devotion with the title "Mother of God".

This is a surprising term, which shows the humility of God's only-begotten Son in his Incarnation and, in connection with it, the most high privilege granted a creature who was called to give him birth in the flesh.

Mother of the Son, Mary is the "beloved daughter of the Father" in a unique way. She has been granted an utterly special likeness between her motherhood and the divine fatherhood.

And again: every Christian is a "temple of the Holy Spirit", according to the Apostle Paul's expression (1 Cor 6:19). But this assertion takes on an extraordinary meaning in Mary: in her the relationship with the Holy Spirit is enriched with a spousal dimension. I recalled this in the Encyclical Redemptoris Mater: "The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her, and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation, welcoming the Word of the true God..." (n. 26).

Mary's dignity surpasses that of every creature

5. Mary's privileged relationship with the Trinity therefore confers on her a dignity which far surpasses that of every other creature. The Council recalls this explicitly: because of this "gift of sublime grace" Mary "far surpasses all creatures" (Lumen gentium, n. 53). However, this most high dignity does not hinder Mary's solidarity with each of us. The Constitution Lumen gentium goes on to say: "But, being of the race of Adam, she is at the same time also united to all those who are to be saved" and she has been "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (ibid.).

Here we see the authentic meaning of Mary's privileges and of her extraordinary relationship with the Trinity: their purpose is to enable her to co-operate in the salvation of the human race. The immeasurable greatness of the Lord's Mother therefore remains a gift of God's love for all men. By proclaiming her "blessed" (Lk 1:48), generations praise the "great things" (Lk 1:49) the Almighty has done in her for humanity, "in remembrance of his mercy" (Lk 1:54). 


Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
17 January 1996, page 11

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KEYWORDS: father; holyspirit; mary; relationship; son; trinity
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For your consideration and discussion.
1 posted on 06/16/2003 8:41:08 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Mary's relationship......as a non-catholic, I'd say it's pretty warm.
2 posted on 06/16/2003 8:44:17 PM PDT by HatSteel
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To: HatSteel
Thank you for that little bit of humor.
3 posted on 06/16/2003 8:50:17 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
read later
4 posted on 06/16/2003 11:33:43 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Salvation
This seems to be in violation of Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
5 posted on 06/17/2003 6:43:16 AM PDT by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive; Polycarp; sinkspur; NYer
Where are you getting that belief?

Is this the message that you have been led to believe about the Catholic Church?

Or do you want to find out what the Catholic Church really does believe?

If you do, please do a search for Catechism and you can start to find out about the true beliefs of the Catholic Church.
6 posted on 06/17/2003 6:48:37 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Onelifetogive; NYer; ThomasMore; Polycarp; sinkspur
Some resources for you:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church -- being discussed on FR

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Table of Contents

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Search engine

Time to study!!

7 posted on 06/17/2003 6:59:27 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation; Onelifetogive
S: Where are you getting that belief?

***5. Mary's privileged relationship with the Trinity therefore confers on her a dignity which far surpasses that of every other creature.***

Statements like this prime the pump. Elevating her above EVERY OTHER CREATURE causes we Protestants to wince.

The many RC extra-biblical extrapolations regarding Mary are viewed as a flirtation with deification at least.
8 posted on 06/17/2003 7:05:49 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Onelifetogive
If the Lord of the Universe wanted to esteblish a special place for Mary, this would have been the perfect place. Instead, this is what He said - completely and in context:

Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

9 posted on 06/17/2003 7:06:26 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Onelifetogive
Perhaps you can explain to we ignorant Catholics how we've turned Mary into a God.
10 posted on 06/17/2003 7:20:24 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej; Salvation; Onelifetogive
Elevating her above EVERY OTHER CREATURE causes we Protestants to wince.

The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace."

Mary is NOT equal to God, nor do catholics suggest she should be viewed as such.

In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

11 posted on 06/17/2003 7:32:39 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: drstevej
Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, et al had a very high opinion of the Blessed Mother. Can you name another mortal who has as intimate a relationship with the Trinity as the Blessed Virgin Mary does?
12 posted on 06/17/2003 7:33:03 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: NYer
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

Having taken four years of greek I find the argument based upon the perfect passive participle unconvincing... 2 + 2 = 13

13 posted on 06/17/2003 7:42:02 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: DManA
If the Lord of the Universe wanted to esteblish a special place for Mary, this would have been the perfect place.

So, you are blasphemously claiming Mary did not do the will of the Father most perfectly?

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke 1.28)

And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1.38)

Your words show your true colors - that of a fellow-traveller with evil, blasphemous, disgraceful Nestorian heretics. Your pride in your erroneous opinions is blinding you to the clear truths of Divine Revelation. Dare to see the greatness of the Mother of our Great God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ in her absolute and total fidelity to God, revealed in Holy Scripture, which you so cavilierly defame. You are behaving as one of those blessed Peter the apostle spoke of when he warned "... the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3.16). You Protestants cannot manage to accept even the clear words of Holy Scripture, which you claim so fervently to reverence and accept. Why is this? Why do you deny the clear meaning of God's Word? What posseses you to need to defame the Mother of God?

And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. And she entered into the house of Zachary and saluted Elizabeth. And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord. And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name. (Luke 1.39-49)

I dare say you probably give more reverence to your own mother, who like the mother's of everyone else, is but nothing compared to the Mother of God. Is your mother called "blessed among women" by "all generations"?

14 posted on 06/17/2003 7:43:13 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
We know more, biblically, about Paul's relationship with the Trinity than Mary's.

When you remove the conjectures and legends surrounding MAry there is not enough biblical evidence to make the claim. I could speculate about the intimacy of Jesus with Joseph, but it would be just that.
15 posted on 06/17/2003 7:49:59 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Dear drstevej,

We know more about St. Paul, generally, than about Mary, but what we know about Mary tells us about her intimacy with the Trinity.

After all, not too many folks have been chosen by God the Father to have conceived and borne the Incarnate Word by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is a level of intimacy with the three Persons of the Trinity that others would find difficult to match.

This is intimacy beyond that which any other human has ever experienced.

In terms of an intimate relationship with the three Persons of the Trinity, St. Paul has nothing on the Mother of God.


sitetest
16 posted on 06/17/2003 8:03:17 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Perhaps you can explain to we ignorant Catholics how we've turned Mary into a God.

From a Protestand point of view---Three things that God is that humans aren't...

1) Omnipresent - Everywhere at once. Can Mary hear and answer prayers from all Catholics, all over the world at once? Of course. A Godlike power!
2) Omniscient - All knowing. Does Mary goof up. Answer prayers incorrectly. You pray for healing, she misunderstands and you get herring? Never!! A Godlike power!
3) Omnipotent - All powerful. Can Mary desire to answer your prayer, but be unable? She lacks the authority to answer and refers you to God for an answer? Never!! A Godlike power.

17 posted on 06/17/2003 8:05:50 AM PDT by Onelifetogive
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To: sitetest
***This is intimacy beyond that which any other human has ever experienced.***

Obviously, for Jesus to have multiple birth mothers is non sensical. But this is still a 2 + 2 = 13 argument.

I am both a biological and adoptive father. My intimacy with my kids is not increased or diminished by having a genetic link or by being present in the delivery room.

Your argument would insist that my wife and I are more intimate with our daughter (biologically ours) than our son (ours via adoption). This is patently not the case.

By the same logic one would conclude that a man can never be as intimate with his wife as the intimacy he can have with his mother. Another 2 + 2 = 13 argument.
18 posted on 06/17/2003 8:16:50 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Dear drstevej,

Your intimacy with your wife is greater than that of others with your wife. Your relationship wih her is unique.

Your wife's relationship with the children to whom she gave birth is unique from other relationships she has, or that her children have with others.

That doesn't denigrate, on a human level, other relationships.

But don't get it backwards - our relationships mirror the Divine, the Divine do not mirror ours.

And in this, Mary, the Mother of God, was given a unique, special intimacy with the interior of the Trinity, as she was chosen by God the Father to conceive the Incarnate Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.

2 + 2 + 5 + 4 = 13


sitetest
19 posted on 06/17/2003 8:22:28 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: drstevej
Dr. Steve: Mary's fullness of grace is predicated upon the enmity that must exist at all times between her and Christ and the Devil.

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. (Genesis 3.15)

The Protestant translation having "he shall" and "his heel" does not change the meaning or import of the first phrase.

God certianly wasn't placing enmity between the Devil and Eve, since the reference is also to the seed of the Devil and the seed of the woman, Mary, which is Jesus Christ.

If Mary was under sin, even Original Sin, this first messianic prophecy would be voided, since sin puts us at enmity to God and but in conformance to the Devil.

Lastly, as far as Luke 1:28 and Acts 6:8 goes, I don't follow your argument, since different Greek words are being used.

These are copied off of a Greek New Testament site.

1:28 kai eiselqwn pros authn eipen caire kecaritwmenh o kurios meta sou

6:8 stefanos de plhrhs caritos kai dunamews epoiei terata kai shmeia megala en tw law

Its perectly clear to me that kecharitomene and charitos are two different words (and Strong goes so far as to use pistos here, not charitos), though of the same root, so that Stephen's condition is not comparable to Mary's. Kecharitomene is not used anywhere else in scripture, to the best of my knowledge. The closest useage is another form of the verb in Ephesians 1.6, echaritosen. Perhaps you can explicate your view further, though.

A fairly good explanation of the Catholic position is found here. The readers of this thread may judge it for themselves.

20 posted on 06/17/2003 8:25:23 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
Paul didn't conceive, give birth to, nurse, or care physically, socially and spiritually for Jesus Christ. The Blessed Mother did. Why do you hold an opinion that is such a radical departure from that of the founders of your movement? Prior to Pauls' encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus, can you describe in detail the intimate relationship he had with the Trinity?

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor.... Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord, because of the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God"
John Calvin: Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Vol. 45, page 335 and 348.

"In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them.... Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God."
Martin Luther: Weimer, The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, Vol. 7, page 572.

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
Ulrich Zwingli: Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. Comp, Vol. 6, I, page 639.

21 posted on 06/17/2003 8:42:53 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: Onelifetogive
1) Omnipresent - Everywhere at once. Can Mary hear and answer prayers from all Catholics, all over the world at once? Of course. A Godlike power!

Everyone in heaven is able to see and answer prayers from people all over the world. "So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance." (Luke 15.10).

The spiritual world does not exist within the same created dimensions of space and time as the physical world.

2) Omniscient - All knowing. Does Mary goof up. Answer prayers incorrectly. You pray for healing, she misunderstands and you get herring? Never!! A Godlike power!

This is ridiculous. Mary can't goof up because when we pray to her, we are asking her to pray to God for us. If you see no value in intercessory prayer asked of those in heaven, who are always with God and see His face, then why do you ask prayers of sinners here below whenever trouble strikes?

"See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 18.10)

3) Omnipotent - All powerful. Can Mary desire to answer your prayer, but be unable? She lacks the authority to answer and refers you to God for an answer? Never!! A Godlike power.

Again, you are being ridiculous. The power of Mary, the Angels, and the Saints, to answer prayers is predicated upon their offering our suplications to them to God on our behalf. Prayers offered to the saints are intercessory petitions for them to pray to God upon our behalf.

"And Jacob blessed the sons of Joseph, and said: God, in whose sight my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, God that feedeth me from my youth until this day: The angel that delivereth me from all evils, bless these boys: and let my name be called upon them, and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and may they grow into a multitude upon the earth." (Genesis 48.15-16)

Jesus said concerning the blessed: "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven." (Matthew 22.10)

If the blessed, including Mary, are as the angels of God, that means they also always see God's face, they are conscious of events in the world, and they can be prayed to as well, and they pray for our well being. One reason Protestants have never liked the book 2 Maccabees is it directly shows this:

Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias, the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold (2 Maccabees 15.12-15)

22 posted on 06/17/2003 8:48:13 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Bumping your answers! Excellent!
23 posted on 06/17/2003 8:51:51 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Another thing to consider:

God ALWAYS answers our prayers as presented through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary!!

His answers, you ask?

Yes,
No,
Not now!!
24 posted on 06/17/2003 8:53:32 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
If Mary is not God, how can I blaspheme her? To say that Mary, daughter of Eve didn't need the Sacrifice of Jesus to be saved is blasphemy.

So, you are blasphemously claiming Mary did not do the will of the Father most perfectly?

25 posted on 06/17/2003 8:54:14 AM PDT by DManA
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
And bumping your excellent references for Luther and Zwingli and their beliefs about the Blessed Virgin Mary.
26 posted on 06/17/2003 8:56:06 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: drstevej; Salvation
full of grace

The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.

Even before the terms "original sin" and "immaculate conception" had been defined, early passages imply the doctrines. Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By God’s grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (CCC 508).

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

27 posted on 06/17/2003 9:09:09 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Onelifetogive; drstevej
Conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit......Born of the Virgin Mary
28 posted on 06/17/2003 9:10:01 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
***Why do you hold an opinion that is such a radical departure from that of the founders of your movement?***

Cause I, like the Bereans, search the Scripture to see if what they say is true. If so, I hold on to it, if not I release it. Doesn't matter wether Calvin, Zwingli or Luther said it.

Quite noble of me, right? Paul thinks so. (Acts 17:11)

We can debate the MAry thing more after I am Pope. :-)
29 posted on 06/17/2003 9:23:32 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By God’s grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (CCC 508).

None of them inspired works.The early church was under heavy pagan influence just looking for a Goddess

If a baptised woman goes to confession (and is therefor sinless ) can she have a painless delivery?

30 posted on 06/17/2003 9:24:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Onelifetogive; Hermann the Cherusker; drstevej
You may find some other salient information here:www.marymediatrix.com

This quote in particular struck me:

"We may say to the compassionate heart of Mary standing at the foot of the cross (Jn. 19:25) what St. John Damascene said to the Virgin of the Annunciation: “Be joyful! You are the ewe giving birth to the Lamb of God, you are the instrument of our salvation". Emphasis mine.

Salvific power is definately a divine attribute.

31 posted on 06/17/2003 9:52:36 AM PDT by jboot (Faith is not a work)
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To: RnMomof7
The early church was under heavy pagan influence just looking for a Goddess

Which of the Early Church Fathers was a pagan?

32 posted on 06/17/2003 10:06:22 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: Onelifetogive; Hermann the Cherusker; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Salvation; drstevej
Can Mary hear and answer prayers from all Catholics, all over the world at once?

Let's clarify something once and for all. Repeat after me: "Catholics do NOT worship Mary!".

"Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God. . . . Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2113, cf. 2110–2112, 2114).

Now if I catch you making this mistake again, you will be asked to write that sentence on the blackboard, 100 times.

33 posted on 06/17/2003 10:23:00 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
***Can Mary hear and answer prayers from all Catholics, all over the world at once?***

Did you answer this question?
34 posted on 06/17/2003 10:25:04 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej; Salvation; Onelifetogive; Hermann the Cherusker; SMEDLEYBUTLER
Did you answer this question?

Yes! But, just in case the short response is lacking, here is a more indepth explanation.

Perhaps devotion to the Mother of God is the constant "WHY?" even among Catholics. Is it necessary? Or, is She important to our Christian life? Finding no convincing answers, this develops into a kind of restraint to come to Her. The Mother of the Redeemer becomes a stranger to the soul that was washed by Christ's blood-the blood that He owed from Mary. Others are even afraid that devotion to Mary might interfere their devotion to Christ. "How can I give my full attention to Christ, and so my love, if I am devoted to Mary?" It is simply the difficulty of loving two persons with one heart. Yet, this is the common rationalization of many. Others are apathetic to any Marian devotion because they are thinking that it is "Too Much!" for Her, a creature like us. It is as if too much devotion to Mary would make Her a god. These are the assumptions of others that prevent them from experiencing the warmth of Her maternal love, the happiness of being a child to a most loving Mother and the consolation of being drawn closer to Jesus.

But we can sum up this cold Marian attitude in a single word: IGNORANCE. It is the lack of knowledge of the person, privileges and role of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Oftentimes there is a confusion between veneration of Mary and adoration to Her. Of course, we don't and never adore the Blessed Virgin as our Protestant brothers accuse us. There is a bold line that delineates between veneration and adoration. No matter how you multiply your veneration, it never ends up with adoration. Just as addition can never make an infinite sum, so our veneration and devotion to Mary remains simply honor to a creature. Period. When we honor Her we never displease our Lord. It never interferes our love and devotion to Christ. It is noteworthy to quote what the Church says on this matter: "The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power.. It rests on His mediation, depends upon it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ" (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 60).

Jesus is never envious when we honor His Mother. On the contrary, He wills it. He even expressed it in the Fourth Commandment: "Honor your father and mother." Is not the Blessed Virgin our Mother? Jesus Himself upon hanging on the Cross gave His Mother as our Mother: "Behold thy Mother" (John 19:27). Although we are not worthy of Her motherhood, Christ gave Her to us because He knew very well that we need a mother like Her. And She is not simply a metaphorical Mother, and we as metaphorical children, but Mary is TRULY our Mother in the supernatural order just as she who gave us birth is our TRUE mother in the natural order. According to Fr. Neubert, S.M.: "A mother is one who gives life. Mary has given you life, the most real life."

In order for us that we may honor Mary as our Mother, Jesus, the Son of God, set an example to follow. He was very obedient to Mary (Luke 2:51) because He was the most loving Son. If to be a Christian means a follower of Christ, then are we not to imitate the love and obedience of Jesus to His Mother? How can we become perfect disciples of Jesus imitating Him in every aspect of His life when we fail to love and obey His Mother? And this is precisely what Marian devotion consists of, love and obedience. So in the person of Jesus we have that divine example of devotion to Mary. His example must be perfect; and that is, what we ought to follow as Christian. If we have to follow Christ's standard of devotion to His Mother, then we should not be afraid in giving Her "too much" love for we will never come to love Her as Jesus did, according to St. Maximilian. Do we think that we can outmatch the love of Jesus to His Mother? Then why are we so reserved in giving our love to Her, in expressing our devotion to Her? Being a Mother of grace She rightly deserves our love-the highest love that we can possibly have. And don't be afraid; our love to Her is too little in comparison with Jesus' love.

Why devotion to Mary? Because Jesus wills it by giving Her Mother as our Mother. Fr. Stefano Maria Pio, FFI, S.T.D. says: "The first foundation for devotion to Mary is Her status as Mother and our status as Her children." This is the reason why the saints had a passionate love to the Blessed Virgin because they looked at Her as a fond Mother. They believed that only by casting themselves upon the maternal care of the Immaculate Mother that one can truly resemble Jesus who quietly rested in His Mother's arms.

Only in frequent recourse to Her that one can be nearer to Jesus. And only in loving Her that one can love Jesus more than one can do by himself. Devotion to Mary is highly recommended in the school of the saints. There is no other way, that is surer, closer and quicker, to Jesus than Mary. AD JESUM PER MARIAM (To Jesus through Mary) is the watchword of the servants of God. In Her we have nothing to do but only a disposition: be a child to a mother; as simple as that and we will experience a sweet intimacy with Jesus, our Brother.
The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

35 posted on 06/17/2003 10:42:16 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: DManA
If Mary is not God, how can I blaspheme her? To say that Mary, daughter of Eve didn't need the Sacrifice of Jesus to be saved is blasphemy.

blaspheme 1. to speak or address with irreverance

blasphemy ... 2. irreverance towards something considered sacred or inviolate

Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary

So you did blaspheme, just as you would blaspheme if you denigrated the Holy Angels; and this is a violation of the Second Commandment "Thou shalt not take the Name of God in vain", which forbids blasphemy and irreverance both towards Almighty God, and towards that which he has made unfailingly holy: Blessed Mary, the Holy Angels and Saints and the great troop of Martyrs.

Secondly, neither I, nor any other Catholic, have ever claimed Mary didn't need the Sacrifice of Jesus to be saved. Didn't you read my post, where I included the verse from the Bible: "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1.47) You lie in placing this quote on my lips. You are IMPIOUS in your assertions, both as to your untruths concerning Blessed Mary, and your untruths asserted about the Faith of Catholics. You think God is pleased with lying, misrepresentation, half-truths, innuendos, false accusations, and error?

36 posted on 06/17/2003 10:43:57 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: NYer
***Can Mary hear and answer prayers from all Catholics, all over the world at once?***

So the answer is yes? I didn't see this issue discussed in your last post.

37 posted on 06/17/2003 10:45:16 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer; drstevej
Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty.

Good point NYer. This is what is meant by the Virgin Birth, "Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son etc." (Isaiah 7.14). The Bible clearly states Mary is a virgin both in conceiving Christ and in giving birth to Him. It is said, Christ passed through Mary into the world as light passes through a window, without violating her Virginity. The only way this is possible would be if Blessed Mary were exempt from the penalties of Origial Sin by the special privilege of God.

38 posted on 06/17/2003 10:49:31 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
Nope, you can't become Pope until you get a better grasp on the Mary thing. Whoever heard of a Pope who did not love Mary?
39 posted on 06/17/2003 10:50:29 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
So the answer is yes? I didn't see this issue discussed in your last post.

The answer is No! Mary does not answer prayers! She intercedes on our behalf.

40 posted on 06/17/2003 10:50:47 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: RnMomof7
If a baptised woman goes to confession (and is therefor sinless ) can she have a painless delivery?

Sorry, this is a really dumb flippant answer you've given. The baptised have original sin remitted, but not the punishments of original sin. Mary was conceived without it, and so was not under its punishments either. You cannot remit what was never there.

The same logic in your answer would also claim we'd have to believe the baptised will never die. Please.

41 posted on 06/17/2003 10:52:41 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
***It is said, Christ passed through Mary into the world as light passes through a window, without violating her Virginity. The only way this is possible would be if Blessed Mary were exempt from the penalties of Origial Sin by the special privilege of God. ***

HtC your logic escapes me. The virgin conception and birth does not require a sinless Mary. Nothing is impossible with God. A supernatural explanation is not problematic to a Bible believer. We have a supernatural God.

And your quote about the light and window went over my head.
42 posted on 06/17/2003 10:56:28 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: jboot
Be joyful! You are the ewe giving birth to the Lamb of God, you are the instrument of our salvation".

Salvific power is definately a divine attribute.

If Mary had said no, Christ would not have come. Her "fiat" was the predicate to Christ's Incarnation. God forces the hand of no man (or woman). That being said, her 'fiat' made her the instrument of salvation, because her agreement was necessary for the incarnation to occur. Christ came to save us by being born of Mary.

43 posted on 06/17/2003 10:59:09 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
Dr Steve, the answer is yes. Just like the angels rejoice over the conversion of every sinner. Mary is outside of time and space now, so the question is meaningless.
44 posted on 06/17/2003 11:00:33 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
***Whoever heard of a Pope who did not love Mary? ***

I love and respect Mary of Scripture, but I am not infatuated with her. Infatuation loves what it imagines the other to be. My affection is shaped by revelation not speculation.

45 posted on 06/17/2003 11:00:40 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
Mary also distributes graces from Christ to us.
46 posted on 06/17/2003 11:01:14 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
And your quote about the light and window went over my head.

Two things can go through windows. Light waves, and solid objects. The first passes through without affecting the window, the second shatters it.

For Christ to be born in the normal method would have impacted Mary's virginity, which Isaiah assures us is not the case - a Virgin both conceived and bore Christ. So he passed through and out of her womb without physical impairment to her. That he could do this is seen by his passing through the solid door in the upper room after the resurrection.

47 posted on 06/17/2003 11:03:59 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
The virgin conception and birth does not require a sinless Mary.

Exemption from the punishments of Original Sin strongly implies exemption from Original Sin itself. Even St. John the Baptist and Jeremiah, both of whom the Bible assures us were filled with the Holy Ghost from their mother's wombs, were under Original Sin and its punishments.

Certainly God can do anything. But there is no reason to beleive he would exempt Mary from the punishments of Original Sin, but not redeem her from Original Sin at the same time.

In any case, the primary proof of Mary's sinlessness is Genesis 3.16, "enmity between you and the woman". One who is under Original Sin cannot be at enmity with the Devil.

48 posted on 06/17/2003 11:07:09 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: RnMomof7
The early church was under heavy pagan influence just looking for a Goddess

This makes me laugh. Which Early Christians were heavily influenced by paganism? Was it the ones who busied themselves tearing down Pagan shinres in accordance with Canon Law? Maybe the ones who descreated pagan Holy places and erected Churches on top of them? Such feverish imaginatiosn in you Protestants.

49 posted on 06/17/2003 11:11:51 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
I am eternally grateful that I will be facing God at the time of judgment, not you.
50 posted on 06/17/2003 11:24:35 AM PDT by DManA
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