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Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ460.HTM ^ | Dave Armstrong compiles quotes from Martin Luther, John Calvin, et al.,

Posted on 06/24/2003 3:49:56 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid

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To: Patrick Madrid
I am a traditional Catholic and I highly honor Mary, but I believe that trying to convince Protestants of her holiness and virginity is like trying to teach Advanced Calculus before subtraction. In my experience, Protestants who convert to Catholicism (including two close family members) generally accept the Marian doctrine last and they have the most trouble with it.

After generations of prejudice against Catholic thought and Mary, they just can’t accept it until after they begin to realize that the Catholic Church holds the truth. They have a knee-jerk reaction against Mary. I think you’d have to start with arguing against sola scriptura or something.
101 posted on 06/26/2003 6:54:25 AM PDT by ChicagoGirl
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To: Patrick Madrid; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RobbyS; RnMomof7; drstevej; Corin Stormhands; Wrigley; ...
911 and a few others who keep beating their heads against the wall in a futile attempt to *prove* that Mary had other children besides Christ), they do two things. 1) Start the name calling (which is the fallacy of ad hominem) and 2) attempt to change the subject to something else they think they can do better on.

I have to admit - this one has me scratching my head in befuddlement......please illustrate for all (with links) where I laced the dialogue with ad homs and name calling. I made no mention of Mary's veneration or the plausability of the co-redemptrix notion, nor did I address the papacy.

Your assertion is baseless - teetering closely to a lie

Perhaps you are confusing me with RobbyS, who had a post deleted for same.

____________________

Posted by RobbyS to Revelation 911

On Religion 06/25/2003 9:50 PM EDT #89 of 101

Catholics are the only true Christians. All others who claim to be Christian are schismatics and heretics :-).

_______________

........Charming

Psalm 12:

3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips and every boastful tongue

Now, while Im responding to you for the last time, please note it is impolite to speak of another freeper with whom you agree or otherwise without including the freeper in the post mentioning him, her.

enjoy your day Pat

102 posted on 06/26/2003 7:25:01 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
Moravians too ? - you may want to qualify that comment

Oh, I just looked them up. One of their websites states that they were formed in 1457. That's a pretty long time after Christ.

103 posted on 06/26/2003 7:25:50 AM PDT by ChicagoGirl
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To: ChicagoGirl
God would have blessed them with more numbers.

so numbers denote success?

Catholics - ....meet the LDS Mormons

104 posted on 06/26/2003 7:31:41 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: ChicagoGirl
One of their websites states that they were formed in 1457. That's a pretty long time after Christ.

....and solidifying doctrine in 1854 regarding Marys perpetual virginity isn't?

By that token - anyone who held that position beforhand was a heretic

So - taking it to another extension - Calvin - Wesley and Luther were "heretics" then for affirming Marys perpetual virginity and "ok" now, as it suits the argument and Pope Pius IX says its "kosher" (he he)

(quotation marks used figuratively)

....can you honestly grasp how nonsensical it looks from the outside

105 posted on 06/26/2003 7:39:38 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: ChicagoGirl
FYI - I was Catholic until my 35th
106 posted on 06/26/2003 7:41:34 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
....can you honestly grasp how nonsensical it looks from the outside

Yes, everything looks different from the outside. Can you imagine how Christianity looks to an outsider? To understand, you must shed your prejudice and be as a child: trust completely, be curious and have faith. Come inside, again, it can be done. That’s what happened to me.

107 posted on 06/26/2003 8:15:22 AM PDT by conservonator
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To: Revelation 911
Irony is obviously lost on some people. Guess my smiley face was not clear enough.
108 posted on 06/26/2003 8:20:50 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Revelation 911
Too young to remember the case of Father Feeney?
109 posted on 06/26/2003 8:22:00 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Revelation 911
A decline in numbers, either from a failure to recruit or from a lowering birth rate, is surely a troubling sign. Witness what has happened to the Anglican Church.
110 posted on 06/26/2003 8:24:55 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
Too young to remember the case of Father Feeney?

no salvation outside the church? - specifically what case?

111 posted on 06/26/2003 8:30:55 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: malakhi
Don't get your dander up.We are close to agreement. Obviously Christians will interpret the Scriptures in the light of faith in Jesus, just as others will interpret them in the absence of faith in him. Catholics read the New Testament in the light of faith in the Church and NCs in the absence of such faith. Total unbelievers, of course, will look at everything in the light of their total rejection of the supernatural and call them fantasy. There is no "objective" point of view.
112 posted on 06/26/2003 8:36:13 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Revelation 911
He was declared a heretic.
113 posted on 06/26/2003 8:37:43 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Revelation 911
A faithful Catholic can believe in a heresy. St. Thomas did not believe in the Immaculation Conception. Some Catholics are so poorly catechized that if they and a Methodist are each asked if they agree with a list of Catholic doctrines, the Methodist may score higher than the Catholic. The real test is, however, which part is more willing to yield his opinion in favor of the Church.
114 posted on 06/26/2003 8:51:43 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
The real test is, however, which part is more willing to yield his opinion in favor of the Church.

My opinion is the Bible will never steer me wrong -

115 posted on 06/26/2003 9:46:59 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: RobbyS
The real test is, however, which part is more willing to yield his opinion in favor of the Church.

spend a minute and look at what your saying - youve totally excluded Christ and faith

116 posted on 06/26/2003 9:48:20 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
-God would have blessed them with more numbers. -so numbers denote success?

No, but they say something about a church, "which the gates of hell will not prevail against."

117 posted on 06/26/2003 10:30:49 AM PDT by ChicagoGirl
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To: Revelation 911
By that token - anyone who held that position beforhand was a heretic

I don't know where you get this idea. The church always believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and restated it in 1854, because heretics were refuting it. Not because it wasn't true before.

...can you honestly grasp how nonsensical it looks from the outside

To be honest, I think your bias against the Church has blinded you from the truth. Your argument is nonsensical. The Church has remained constant in its belief about Mary for more than 2000 years, and if you can't see that as proof of the truth, then I can't help you. God chose a human woman to bear His son and carry Him in her womb and give birth to Him and raise Him. The bible, 2000 years of faithful Christians and common sense all hold that Mary remained a virgin for life.

I believe that God wants us to honor and respect His Holy Mother.

118 posted on 06/26/2003 10:42:15 AM PDT by ChicagoGirl
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To: Revelation 911
It's too bad that you had a bad experience with the truth. I will pray for you to come back home.
119 posted on 06/26/2003 10:44:17 AM PDT by ChicagoGirl
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To: Revelation 911
And you have forgotten that the Church is defined as the body of Christ. He is the head, we are the members. And so we get to the meaning of that parable in which the Lord tells to cut off an infected member.
120 posted on 06/26/2003 10:55:31 AM PDT by RobbyS
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