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Rapture Rumble: Catholic Author Debates "Left Behind" Author
Envoy Magazine ^ | 07-22-03 | Carl Olson

Posted on 07/24/2003 6:31:37 AM PDT by Patrick Madrid

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1 posted on 07/24/2003 6:31:37 AM PDT by Patrick Madrid
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To: Patrick Madrid; american colleen; sinkspur; livius; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...
Here are the sections of the debate that were "left behind" on the editing floor, prefaced by Olson’s initial letter to LaHaye and concluding with a final exchange in which LaHaye tells Olson, "I do grieve for your soul" because of the latter’s entrance into the Catholic Church.

Lol!! Will ping the troops - in both camps.

2 posted on 07/24/2003 6:50:11 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
Wow. LaHaye is even less intelligent and more dishonest than his Left Behind cottage industry would suggest.
3 posted on 07/24/2003 7:08:03 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
Wow. LaHaye is even less intelligent and more dishonest than his Left Behind cottage industry would suggest.

What in this article suggests a basis for your your claims?

4 posted on 07/24/2003 7:50:56 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (Ain't nothing worse than feeling obsolete....)
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To: wideawake
Same impression I got - my way or no way. Talk about living in a box!

One of the things I love about being an appendage of the Catholic Church is that there is an openness and willingness and encouragement to read widely.

5 posted on 07/24/2003 7:53:43 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
One of the things I love about being an appendage of the Catholic Church is that there is an openness and willingness and encouragement to read widely.

You obviously are not old enough to remember when everything was done in Latin. With the exception of the RC's on FRC I am found most have spent very little time in the scriptures.
6 posted on 07/24/2003 9:12:00 AM PDT by Blessed
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To: Blessed
With the exception of the RC's on FRC I am found most have spent very little time in the scriptures

Zzzzzz...This is going to happen when you have over ONE BILLION Catholics in the world. Not all of them are going to be biblical scholars.

Also, the Latin argument is a non-sequitir. The Catholic Church has been producing vernacular bibles for centuries, certainly within the lifetime of anyone you know on either FR or elsewhere.
7 posted on 07/24/2003 9:15:47 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: Zavien Doombringer; wideawake
LaHaye: God bless you and my prayer is that you will open your heart and mind!

Olson: Thank you for your prayers; I appreciate them. Please know that you will also be in my prayers.

I don't believe either one of them.

Olsen is no esoteric. LaHaye is no scholar. Both were blind men swinging at the pinata and occasionally drawing blood. But no light broke in.

Not for me, anyway.

8 posted on 07/24/2003 9:41:53 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Zavien Doombringer
What in this article suggests a basis for your your claims?

His citation of Dave Hunt as a source for history is laughable. That's shows he's a moron who knows nothing about historical research.

His claim that not buying into the most crackpot dispensationalist mania is the equivalent of not believing in Hell shows that he is a dishonest huckster.

9 posted on 07/24/2003 9:50:01 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: xzins
What's an "esoteric"?
10 posted on 07/24/2003 9:50:33 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
An "initiated one"...a mystic.

I honestly don't think either is "praying" for the other. That was gobbledygook "christianese" at the end of their so-called debate.

11 posted on 07/24/2003 9:55:08 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Blessed
You obviously are not old enough to remember when everything was done in Latin.

(1) There was never a time that everything was done in Latin. This is silly misconception shared by many.

(2) My father is certainly old enough to remember when Mass was celebrated in Latin (and I attend Latin Mass on Sundays myself). Because my father was not lazy, he paid attention in Latin class and he is able (as I am) to read the Scriptures in Latin as well as in the English of the Catholic Revised Standard Version, the Douay-Rheims, the Confraternity Bible and the Knox Version - all translations widely available to Catholics long before the vernacular invaded the Mass.

12 posted on 07/24/2003 9:55:30 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: xzins
Did Olson make this claim for himself?
13 posted on 07/24/2003 9:56:25 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
hmm, I guess I will need to check into that...I am not versed in this area.
14 posted on 07/24/2003 10:00:08 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (Ain't nothing worse than feeling obsolete....)
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To: wideawake
hmm, I guess I will need to check into that...I am not versed in this area.
15 posted on 07/24/2003 10:00:11 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (Ain't nothing worse than feeling obsolete....)
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To: wideawake
That he's a scholar? Yes, it's pretty clear from context.
16 posted on 07/24/2003 10:01:36 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
You told me that "esoteric" meant "initiated" or "mystic" - you made no mention of "esoteric" as scholarly or academic.

Do I take you to mean that being a scholar or an academic makes one a "mystic"?

17 posted on 07/24/2003 10:04:35 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
Read #8 again. I think you've misapplied what I wrote.

I said Olsen is NO esoteric.

18 posted on 07/24/2003 10:06:49 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Gotcha.
19 posted on 07/24/2003 10:12:30 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
Now back to the point.

There is a proper way to apply a "spiritual" hermeneutic and a "literal" hermeneutic.

These two regularly arrive at different endpoints. Yet, as an advocate of the literal method, I nonetheless recognize the valid efforts of those whose use of a different method will take them to a different conclusion than my own.

Neither method is invalidated. We'll have to wait for the great consummation to make that evaluation.

20 posted on 07/24/2003 10:22:47 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Patrick Madrid
What an embarassing jackass the LaHaye guy is, with his incredulous response to Olson doubting the 40 million killed myth. He actually uses Dave Hunt as his back-up! That would be like Dave Hunt using Jack Chick as his back-up!
21 posted on 07/24/2003 10:23:09 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: xzins
Face it, LaHaye embarassed himself, from the point that he claimed Olson was brainwashed on. He started swinging wildly, going from Catholic revisionism to Mariolatry (I have no idea why he brought that up) to poverty in the Third World. He acted like a cornered animal.
22 posted on 07/24/2003 10:29:21 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: wideawake
Wideawake, wasn't also the English translation found in the Missal next to the Latin? Or is that just for today's Latin Masses?
23 posted on 07/24/2003 10:30:25 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: Conservative til I die
Yep. He did.

I thought Olsen starting out by calling him a plagiarizer wasn't exactly trying to build rapport and gain a convert, would you?

24 posted on 07/24/2003 10:33:02 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Patrick Madrid
SPOTREP
25 posted on 07/24/2003 10:38:52 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Conservative til I die
I have seen Missals dating back to the turn of the century printed by the Benziger Brothers press (the largest Catholic publisher in America for generations) that contained English side-by-side with the Latin.

I'll bet that this was nothing new in 1910 either.

26 posted on 07/24/2003 10:51:33 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Patrick Madrid
Bump for later reading
27 posted on 07/24/2003 10:59:00 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: xzins
Neither method is invalidated.

Of course.

But LaHaye uses no method.

He has adopted unvarnished Darbyism - he is not a "literalist".

If he were he would be deep in the languages.

I can't imagine anyone who would say that Spurgeon or Sproul aren't literalists. Yet they haven't advocated the Darby/Scofield/Ryrie position.

Dispensationalism and literalism aren't synonymous.

28 posted on 07/24/2003 10:59:20 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
Spurgeon was a premillennialist, but not, as you've said, a dispensationalist (in today's understanding of that term.)

LaHaye doesn't like the Catholic Church.

That's his business....to each his own.

But saying that the Catholic Church is "Mystery Babylon" is a wild stretch that I think is unsupportable. So, I agree. If he isn't willing to discuss how he arrived at his conclusions, then he should be a bit more humble in his interpreting.

29 posted on 07/24/2003 11:26:30 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Blessed
Sorry. I have a bible (in English) dating from 1802. Brought down from Newfoundland by my Irish Catholic relatives. The book is quite well worn.

You might be unfamiliar with the fact that the Mass has always had multiple Bible readings in English (not in Latin, that was the rest of the Mass)... if you attend Mass every day, you hear the entire Bible in one year. If you attend Mass once a week, you hear the entire Bible in three years.

Always had a Bible while growing up in my not particularly Catholic home. Had to buy a Bible in HS for religion classes.

Used to believe non-Catholics when they stated what you did, and then I started to pay attention and realize that at age 44, I've either heard or read the entire Bible many times. But I don't memorize passages of it, so maybe just reading it for edification and not memorization isn't enough.

30 posted on 07/24/2003 11:43:32 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: wideawake; Patrick Madrid
OK, I'm usually pretty good at this stuff but I can't seem to find the article - any suggestions? Thx -
31 posted on 07/24/2003 12:45:37 PM PDT by Is2C (www.persecution.com)
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To: Is2C
It's the yellow starburst on the upper left hand of the linked page.
32 posted on 07/24/2003 12:48:14 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: american colleen
No!!! You must memorize!!! Preferably from only one translation!!!
33 posted on 07/24/2003 12:49:17 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
OK, all together now, a big, Homer D'UH! It's sad but that actually did it for me. Thx
34 posted on 07/24/2003 1:01:25 PM PDT by Is2C (www.persecution.com)
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To: Is2C
Sorry bout that. Here's another URL that should work:

http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/7.1/RaptureRumble.asp
35 posted on 07/24/2003 1:44:35 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
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To: wideawake
Dispensationalists, like Ryrie, argue for "normal" rather than "literal" interpretation. That is, when the author's intent is to use figurative language the interpreter isn't to force it to be literal. When the author intends a literal statement the interpreter is not to read in a figurative meaning.

This is the normal method of fairly handling written material whether it be the Constitution, a fellow freeper's post or the Bible.

Often there is considerable room for debate whether the biblical author intended to use figurative language and the precise point of the figure.
36 posted on 07/24/2003 1:55:59 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Often there is considerable room for debate whether the biblical author intended to use figurative language and the precise point of the figure.

Well put.

37 posted on 07/24/2003 2:00:07 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Patrick Madrid
Left Behind's Report Card:

Number of sales: A+

Quality of writing (compared to great literature): C+

Doctrine of salvation as presented in books: A+

Impact on people who resist the idea of the Rapture: A

Use of Scripture in the story line: A

The storyline vehicle which made the previous un-named Pope a born again believer, while portraying the successor pope as being the leader of the false religion: A+




"For by grace you are saved thru faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, that you may boast."






38 posted on 07/24/2003 2:01:03 PM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank
Fishtank's Report Card as a Book Reviewer:


Effort and ingenuity: A

Number of mistaken concluions: A+ (for quantity)

Quality of Reviewing: C+

Doctrine of salvation as presented in books reviewed: D-

Impact on people who resist misguided reviews of Rapture books: D-

Use of correct biblical theology in the review: D-

Sheer credulity and uncritical acceptance of the unbiblical premise the second pope mentioned in the books is the leader of a false religion: A+ (for quantity)
39 posted on 07/24/2003 2:37:26 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
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To: wideawake
So which version of the Bible includes the sarcasm tags? (/sarcasm)
40 posted on 07/24/2003 2:40:54 PM PDT by Tax-chick (I'm a right wingnut, I admit it!)
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To: Conservative til I die
40 million? Ha Ha Ha...It is hysterically funny but I know he believes it to be true.
41 posted on 07/24/2003 2:43:00 PM PDT by As you well know...
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To: Patrick Madrid
LaHaye promotes birth control, including pills, as a "gift" to married couples. When I saw that, I threw away the book I had (wouldn't even give it to the library) and refuse to touch anything else.

If you want science fiction with a curious religious twist and GREAT writing, try "Babylon 5."
42 posted on 07/24/2003 2:43:32 PM PDT by Tax-chick (I'm a right wingnut, I admit it!)
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To: Patrick Madrid
As I've said before, don't waste your time on the LEFT BEHIND books. They are designed to put money in the author's pocket.
There are so many better books to read. You might start with the BIBLE!
43 posted on 07/24/2003 5:06:31 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (He shot at you, did he! Well, dammit, shoot back!)
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To: Tax-chick
There's actually a couple of interesting books written on the humor in the Bible - humor that gets a bit lost in translation.
44 posted on 07/24/2003 5:16:58 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Tax-chick
Please document LaHaye's support for the culture of death. That info could prove very useful.
45 posted on 07/24/2003 5:20:51 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
There are so many better books to read. You might start with the BIBLE!

Thank you!

I'm at the point now in my Scripture study where I'm learning the Greek and Hebrew - it is a really good feeling to spend your leisure time sharpening your mind while learning more about God's Word.

I wouldn't trade a minute of it for trashy novels or TV sitcoms.

46 posted on 07/24/2003 5:27:41 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Patrick Madrid
"When you have a church that often throughout history used the power of the state to persecute others who loved Jesus Christ because they disagreed with them and destroyed their writings – it is only natural that church history will be presented from that churches’ position."

LaHaye - B+ - because he said "who loved Jesus Christ"
Catholic church - F - because the leadership has long denied their continual support of evil behavior among their clergy.

47 posted on 07/24/2003 5:30:56 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: wideawake
GO FOR IT!
48 posted on 07/24/2003 5:32:07 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (He shot at you, did he! Well, dammit, shoot back!)
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To: Conservative til I die
***What an embarassing jackass the LaHaye guy is***

Prophecy preachers have a tendency to build on the works of other prophecy preachers. Their errors are compounded and soon their failures begin to be exposed. If one looks at all the times Christ was supposed to return in the last 100 years and has failed to show up we must ask ourselves, do these people REALLY have a corner on some secret knowledge from the scriptures? I doubt it.

Salem Kirban, Hall Linsey, Van Impe, and La Haye, all in the same boat.
49 posted on 07/24/2003 5:42:44 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (He shot at you, did he! Well, dammit, shoot back!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Addendum to # 49.

Rub-a-dub-dub four men in a tub lost on the ocean blue...
50 posted on 07/24/2003 5:44:31 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (He shot at you, did he! Well, dammit, shoot back!)
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