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Speakers Stress Obedience To Rome, Reverence For Eucharist
The Wanderer | July 2003 | PAUL LIKOUDIS

Posted on 07/25/2003 7:42:41 PM PDT by Land of the Irish

LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Francis Cardinal Arinze, the Nigerian-born prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, made it crystal clear that the Holy See is well aware of the growing lack of reverence exhibited by Catholics at Mass, the banality of too much modern Church music, the extent of liturgical abuses, and the ongoing scandal of reckless church "renovations."

But he also made it abundantly clear, in addressing participants at the annual Church Teaches Forum held July 18 and 19 here, that each of these problems will only be solved when every Catholic person understands, as he put it in the title of his talk, "the reverence due to the Holy Eucharist."

In an address that was as blunt as it was inspirational, Cardinal Arinze lamented the fact that so many Catholics and too many priests simply no longer understand that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, who is "due honor, reverence, adoration, thanksgiving, and love."

Beginning his talk by defining reverence as "the virtue which inclines a person to show honor and respect primarily to God, but also to one’s parents, to civil authorities, and to religious leaders," the cardinal continued by saying, "It is part of the virtue of religion to show reverence to God, to respect His name, and to honor everything connected with Him: persons, places, or objects," including priests, churches, altars, chalices, and vestments.

The foundation of reverence is faith, "Where there is no faith," he said, "there is no reverence."

He cited passages from the Council of Trent and The Catechism of the Catholic Church, and from St. Thomas Aquinas’ Adoro Te and Lauda Sion Salvatorem, as well as the succinct teaching of Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium. Arinze said the Church has never wavered in what it has taught about the Eucharist, nor downplayed the reverence and adoration due the Blessed Sacrament. "For due reverence to the Holy Eucharist, every Catholic needs proper initiation into this faith and continued growth in it," he insisted. "Some Catholics are lacking in due reverence to the Holy Eucharist because their eucharistic faith is poor and full of defects and doubts." Departing from his text, he added, "Many Catholics are heretics, except they don’t know it. They cannot articulate their faith. If you ask them a few questions, they cannot answer.

"What every Catholic should know," he continued, "is that they are receiving Jesus Christ."

Returning to his prepared text, Cardinal Arinze continued: "Catechesis should not presume that everyone has 100% faith. Rather, the Catholic faith on the Holy Eucharist should be systematically imparted. Homilies should be solidly based on holy Scripture, liturgical texts, and other authoritative Church documents. The homily needs special attention because for most Catholics it is the single most effective weekly moment in which they can be fed on the doctrine of the faith to help them know it, love it, and live it with ever greater authenticity. Careful study of The Catechism of the Catholic Church and regular reading of reliable Catholic magazines will also help build up the faith." Again, departing from his text, Cardinal Arinze quipped that the "catechism never changes — even if the government does!" and he suggested that every Catholic has the moral obligation to learn more about his faith. Even in a busy modern society, there is no reason why every Catholic cannot read the Bible for 15 minutes a day, the Missal for 15 minutes, the Catechism for 15 minutes, and recite the rosary, for 15 minutes.

"After you do that, you can watch TV for 15 minutes," he said. A Catholic who has faith, he continued, will manifest that faith at Mass. "At Mass, the ordained priest acts in the name of Christ.

He does not just preside at an assembly prayer as a chairman who conducts a meeting. No. He prays in Christ’s name. He preaches with Christ’s authority. He consecrates bread and wine in the name and in the person of Christ. He offers Christ to the Father. He gives the Body and Blood of Christ to God’s people, blesses them and sends them forth to live what they have celebrated. "It matters, therefore, very much that the priest’s gestures should be genuine manifestations of eucharistic faith and love. Although Christ is the chief celebrant who uses the ministry of the ordained priest as His instrument, the priest’s behavior influences the entire congregation."

Each individual in the congregation also has the obligation to manifest reverence: by coming early to Mass to pray and recollect, by singing, praying, standing at the appropriate times, and by maintaining silence at the appropriate times.

Cardinal Arinze said, "It is sad that so many Catholics are allergic to silence," and instead of praying silently before, after, or even during Mass, fill time by chatting with their neighbor, reading a newspaper, and then rush out of church as soon as Mass ends. Sometimes it is the priest who cannot tolerate silence, sometimes it is the people in the pew, and sometimes it is the choir, "which wants to fill up every quiet moment with singing," he said.

The Church’s liturgy, he continued, is threatened by the real "danger of horizontalism," the notion that priest and people come to Mass "primarily to meet one another, to reaffirm one another, and at times even to entertain one another. No. Such horizontalism is misplaced. We come to Mass primarily to adore God, to thank Him, to ask pardon for our sins, and make requests for our needs. We are not the center. God is."

Reverence is also shown by genuflecting before the tabernacle when entering and leaving a church, by genuflecting, bowing, or making the sign of the cross when receiving Communion, by wearing proper attire at Mass, by clean and well-maintained altar dressings and furnishings, by the priest wearing the proper liturgical vestments, by respecting Church regulations regarding the altar and sanctuary, by music that shows "theological, liturgical, and aesthetic beauty and depth.

"Trite and banal musical productions are not conducive to reverence," he said and in an aside commented that too much liturgical music is just "organized noise." Another abuse which detracts from the reverence due at Mass is the overuse of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Such an abuse, he said, shows "a lack of reverence and bad theology."

A situation in which extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are allowed would be, he suggested, a parish with "one to five thousand communicants and the priest is on the other side of 80 and has arthritis. Church law gives permission for that occasion. It is another matter when there are 20 people in the congregation and 20 people rush the sanctuary."

Sympathizing with many Catholics, Cardinal Arinze mused: "Why create problems for the people of God? Why offend the sensibilities of good people? It is not a question of Rome saying this or that, it’s a question of people being offended by what they consider abuses in what people think is the most important thing on earth." In his opinion, the demand for the "pre-1970 way of celebrating Mass" is "generally the fault of those who have introduced abuses and their own idiosyncrasies into the Mass, contrary to the clear directives of the Second Vatican Council. If the Mass is celebrated with faith and reverence, and sung also in Latin sometimes, people’s Catholic faith and piety will be adequately nourished.

"People seek the old form of the Mass," he said, "because they are sick and tired of abuses."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholiclist
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"People seek the old form of the Mass," he said, "because they are sick and tired of abuses."
1 posted on 07/25/2003 7:42:41 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Aliska; Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Bellarmine; Dajjal; Canticle_of_Deborah; ...
Ping
2 posted on 07/25/2003 7:44:44 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
The good Cardinal is admonishing the wrong people. It was the American bishops who banned kneeling for Communion and ripped out the communion rails. The fish rots at the top.
3 posted on 07/25/2003 8:15:53 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; As you well know...; BBarcaro; ...
The good Cardinal is admonishing the wrong people. It was the American bishops who banned kneeling for Communion and ripped out the communion rails. The fish rots at the top.

Cardinal Arinze is one of the leading papabile. He didn't get there without cutting and trimming when the situation called for it.

4 posted on 07/25/2003 8:45:44 PM PDT by Loyalist (The scalpel of the abortionist is the sword of Islam.)
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To: Land of the Irish
The Church’s liturgy, he continued, is threatened by the real "danger of horizontalism," the notion that priest and people come to Mass "primarily to meet one another, to reaffirm one another, and at times even to entertain one another. No. Such horizontalism is misplaced. We come to Mass primarily to adore God, to thank Him, to ask pardon for our sins, and make requests for our needs. We are not the center. God is."

Thank God for Cardinal Arinze!

5 posted on 07/25/2003 8:51:54 PM PDT by sandyeggo
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To: Land of the Irish
Ping!!!
6 posted on 07/25/2003 9:09:31 PM PDT by fortunecookie (longtime lurker and new poster)
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To: Land of the Irish
"Where there is no faith, there is no reverence."

The NO in a nutshell.

And where there is no reverence, there is no faith, and you end up with arrogant, ignorant, armchair-quarterback statements like, "Rome is the problem."
7 posted on 07/25/2003 9:19:42 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: sandyeggo
AMEN! I have loved and admired this great man for a long time. It seems, in my humble and far-removed opinion, that this man would be a blessing to us all as Pope, but that is in God's infinitely wise hands, not mine.
8 posted on 07/25/2003 9:22:10 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: Thorondir; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ..
In his opinion, the demand for the "pre-1970 way of celebrating Mass" is "generally the fault of those who have introduced abuses and their own idiosyncrasies into the Mass, contrary to the clear directives of the Second Vatican Council. If the Mass is celebrated with faith and reverence, and sung also in Latin sometimes, people’s Catholic faith and piety will be adequately nourished.

"People seek the old form of the Mass," he said, "because they are sick and tired of abuses."

This is the general opinion of most of those who I see post here. That opinion often creates an environment where we get subject to name calling and vitriolic abuse. Imagine, just for a moment what the Very Reverend and Most Emminant Cardinal faces every day. Pray for him.

9 posted on 07/25/2003 10:28:18 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: Land of the Irish; narses; ultima ratio
I seek out the Old Mass because it is the Holy Tradition.

Lessee ... a banal concoction of the worst trends of the 1960's, or the Tradition of Popes Damasus, Innocent, Leo, Gelasius, Gregory, Pius V, Pius X? What a tough choice!

Even at its best at places such as St. Agnes in St. Paul, the Novus Ordo is lacking because it violated the law of tradition and excised and expurgated prayers. How can a true Catholic not feel the absence of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar or the full Munda cor Meum or most of all the Roman Canon?

10 posted on 07/26/2003 1:05:48 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: narses
I am going to pray for him daily. He also gave a wonderful commencement address,thoroughly Catholic,at Georgetown this year,I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 faculty members protested that his speech was out of line.

I wish all graduates of Georgetown that know what it means to be Catholic would shut their pocketbooks and open their mouths. They,the alums,have a lot of power. They either are pleased because they are ignoramususes or they aren't aware of how critical the situation is. Doesn't say much for the theology department.

Thanks for the thread,it was uplifting.

11 posted on 07/26/2003 1:07:58 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Land of the Irish
I should have thanked you for posting the article. Thanks.
12 posted on 07/26/2003 1:09:58 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Land of the Irish
** "People seek the old form of the Mass," he said, "because they are sick and tired of abuses." **

I don't think this is the only reason. I have attended the NO Mass done in Latin, in the English/Latin Hybrid, and in English. The language of the NO Mass is lacking.
I also think ad populem is a mistake, as was yanking out altar rails, standing for communion, and receiving in the hand.
I have been Catholic less than ten years, so it's not like I have an attachment to the old Mass. The indult at my Parish had been pulled before I ever became Catholic.



13 posted on 07/26/2003 3:39:56 AM PDT by sockmonkey
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To: Land of the Irish
"People seek the old form of the Mass," he said, "because they are sick and tired of abuses."

Could somebody who knows Latin well criticize this, please?

Salutation, Queen, merciful mother, our sweet life and our hope. I greet you.
To you we cry, we banished children of Eve.
To you we sigh, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Therefore, our advocate, turn your merciful eyes upon us,
And to the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus,
Lead us when our exile is ended.
Gentle, pious, kind Virgin Mary
Pray for us, Holy Mother of God
That we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.
14 posted on 07/26/2003 4:36:36 AM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
The "et Jesum" goes with "nobis ostende," not "ad nos" -- "And show us Jesus."

I think the English idiom would be to pluralize "salve" as "salutations."

15 posted on 07/26/2003 5:18:32 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Loyalist; narses; ultima ratio; Land of the Irish; Hermann the Cherusker; sockmonkey
Cardinal Arinze is one of the leading papabile.

Well, then, I guess we can predict the likely outcome should he become Pope:

The Novus Ordo will become Novior et Novior et Novior as he revises it to weed out "abuses."

(He is a leading liturgist of the N.O., after all)

With fewer abuses in the Novior Ordo, there will be less need for those "sick and tired" Catholics to get the (ahem) "old form" indulted to them.

16 posted on 07/26/2003 5:23:43 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: dsc
I saw how I misread your translation. Just put a period after "upon us."
17 posted on 07/26/2003 5:27:36 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Land of the Irish
Thank you, Cardinal Arinze! I am glad to know that Rome is aware of the abuses. For so long it seemed like the Vatican was oblivious to these problems. God willing, perhaps he will be the next pope.
I am glad that he mentioned that lack of reverence indicates a lack of faith. When some of us ordinary Catholics express this thought we are attacked as rigid and inflexible throwbacks to an outdated era.
18 posted on 07/26/2003 5:46:37 AM PDT by k omalley
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To: Dajjal
How about this?

Therefore, our advocate, turn your merciful eyes upon us.
And to Jesus, the blessed fruit of your womb,
Lead us when our exile is ended.
19 posted on 07/26/2003 5:52:54 AM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
Fine.
20 posted on 07/26/2003 5:57:41 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
Oh, I just saw how I misread your reply.

The "et Jesum" goes with "nobis ostende," not "ad nos" -- "And show us Jesus."

I'm just a rank know-nothing in this realm, but given the various meanings of "show" (show him to his room, etc.) I wondered if the real sense of the passage wasn't to ask Mary to show--to conduct, to lead--us to her Son.
21 posted on 07/26/2003 6:03:44 AM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
I'm just a rank know-nothing in this realm, but given the various meanings of "show" (show him to his room, etc.) I wondered if the real sense of the passage wasn't to ask Mary to show--to conduct, to lead--us to her Son.

The question is beyond my competence, but the dictionaries seem to imply vision rather than movement.

ostendo, di, sum, tum : v. a. to stretch out or spread before one; hence, to expose to view, to show, exhibit, display (syn.: monstro, exhibeo).

ostendo : to show, reveal, present, make plain, declare.
ostendo : -ere-di sum, to show, to exhibit.

22 posted on 07/26/2003 6:42:47 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
"With fewer abuses in the Novior Ordo, there will be less need for those "sick and tired" Catholics to get the (ahem) "old form" indulted to them."

If the Tridentine is ever given equal footing with the Novus, there will be no contest. The Novus will die the quick, natural death that is deserves.
23 posted on 07/26/2003 7:01:07 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
I am in one of those parishes. The priest makes us stand during the Eucharistic Prayer, hold hands during the Lord's Prayer, stand and greet everyone before Mass even begins, the Eucharistic ministers give communion to themselves, the alter servers wear regular everyday clothes and we have a woman that comes up to do the homily. These are just a few of what I consider abuses. I've never been to a Latin Mass...I was born in the 70's but I like to think I can spot a liturgical abuse when I see one! I stick out like a sore thumb in this community(been here for almost 2 years now). Everyone thinks I'm negative and a complainer. It's so hard to keep my mouth shut!! I was so excited when we first moved here...I live right across the street from the church. My son is starting Kindergarten there in the fall. Thought I had found heaven on earth. Now, I don't even want him to participate in the children's Mass because it's so horrible! I think we're going to move out of state!!
24 posted on 07/26/2003 7:10:47 AM PDT by samiam1972 (Live simply so that others may simply live!)
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To: dsc
vision rather than movement

Or, rather, perhaps movement by the exhibitor "spreading" the direct object before the speaker, who sees the d.o.

25 posted on 07/26/2003 7:22:42 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Land of the Irish
If the Tridentine is ever given equal footing with the Novus, there will be no contest. The Novus will die the quick, natural death that is deserves.

True, but they will claim it fails the "full and active participation" test.

26 posted on 07/26/2003 7:32:03 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: samiam1972
Now, I don't even want him to participate in the children's Mass because it's so horrible!

What??? But according to this thread the Children's Mass is one of the bestestest things about the N.O.!!!

And she sees that in her daughters as well. “I don’t know that I’ve ever heard them say, ‘Do we have to go to church today?’ When they were younger they loved the children’s liturgies. Now they enjoy being able to serve — something I wasn’t allowed to do.”

27 posted on 07/26/2003 7:41:56 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Land of the Irish
Great Post. Thanks--this is NOT the text one finds in the Liturgical Establishment's summary of the speech.
28 posted on 07/26/2003 7:58:26 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: sandyeggo; sinkspur
Interesting that the African Episcopalian Bishops are leading the resistance to the Episcopal Church's abandonment of doctrine, dogma, and self-control.

Evidently Africa is not quite as backwards as some on this forum would have us believe....
29 posted on 07/26/2003 8:00:16 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
Evidently Africa is not quite as backwards as some on this forum would have us believe.... Not backward. Poor.
30 posted on 07/26/2003 8:15:53 AM PDT by sinkspur ("Maybe he needed killin'" Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton in "The Searchers")
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To: Land of the Irish
If the Tridentine is ever given equal footing with the Novus, there will be no contest. The Novus will die the quick, natural death that is deserves.

Wanna bet? The demand for the Tridentine is miniscule. Even in Lincoln Nebraska, where Bruskewitz allows anybody who wants to celebrate it to do so, anytime they want to, there's only a couple in the entire diocese.

Your wishing will not make it so.

31 posted on 07/26/2003 8:19:08 AM PDT by sinkspur ("Maybe he needed killin'" Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton in "The Searchers")
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To: Land of the Irish
To read later.
32 posted on 07/26/2003 8:22:02 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sinkspur
Wanna bet?

Sure.

33 posted on 07/26/2003 8:23:57 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ninenot
I have several times here sung the praises of one of the best priests I have ever had the privilege of sharing the same parish with.

He is from Nigeria, brilliant, (canon lawyer; that's why the bishop took him from us) articulate, MAJOR use of scripture in his superb sermons, sense of humor, always alive with joy in the Lord. What a blessing to have him for the 18 months we had him with us. I miss him.

34 posted on 07/26/2003 8:27:38 AM PDT by sandyeggo
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To: samiam1972; american colleen; NYer
**I was born in the 70's but I like to think I can spot a liturgical abuse when I see one! I stick out like a sore thumb in this community(been here for almost 2 years now). Everyone thinks I'm negative and a complainer. It's so hard to keep my mouth shut!!**

With the new GIRM in hand, why aren't you going in to talk to your priest about what is being put into practice in ALL the arch/dioceses at this time. Especially check on your arch/diocesan site and see what the bishop is putting into action -- there may be a copy of a letter that was sent out to all priests. I know that ours came way back a year and a half ago when the changes were first hinted at!!!!

If that doesn't work, then go up one level to the Vicar General. Do your homework here. Many people have done this and good things have happened in their parishes. Still much to do, but we let the priests know that we know they are messing up.
35 posted on 07/26/2003 8:30:30 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sinkspur
**Your wishing will not make it so.**

Bumping!
36 posted on 07/26/2003 8:32:07 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: samiam1972
It's so hard to keep my mouth shut!!

Good for you!!! You are in the right! As frustrating as it may be, keep up the pressure. Here are some tools to help you in this struggle. DO NOT CAVE IN by moving. That resolves nothing. Before you make a move to a different parish or diocese, at least apply some of these tactics. They do work! Trust me and please feel free to freepmail me with any questions. I am more than willing to help you with this cause.

How to Address a Liturgical Abuse

Is Your Mass Valid? Liturgical Abuse

What to do about Liturgical Abuses?

What can be done about liturgical abuses? First, know your rights. Inaestimabile Donum and Canon Law state:

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council's admonition in this regard must be remembered: "No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority." [Sacrosanctum Concilium] And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."[Paul VI, address of August 22, 1973: "L'Osservatore Romano," August 23, 1973.]

Canon 528 §2: "The parish priest is to take care that the blessed Eucharist is the center of the parish assembly of the faithful. He is to strive to ensure that the faithful are nourished by the devout celebration of the sacraments, and in particular that they frequently approach the sacraments of the blessed Eucharist and penance. He is to strive to lead them to prayer, including prayer in their families, and to take a live and active part in the sacred liturgy. Under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, the parish priest must direct this liturgy in his own parish, and he is bound to be on guard against abuses."


37 posted on 07/26/2003 9:05:36 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: k omalley
When some of us ordinary Catholics express this thought we are attacked as rigid and inflexible throwbacks to an outdated era.

If you're referring to reactions of Freeper Catholics (vs. Catholics in general) a lot of the reason for that reaction is because the traditionalists don't stop at saying the Novus Ordo is weak, they continue onto how the Pope is illegitimate and how Satan is in the Vatican, and the likes.

I too believe we need to at least get back to the spirit of the times before V2, but I would never go as far as some of these folks do in their condemnation.
38 posted on 07/26/2003 9:09:14 AM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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To: Conservative til I die
If you're referring to reactions of Freeper Catholics (vs. Catholics in general) a lot of the reason for that reaction is because the traditionalists don't stop at saying the Novus Ordo is weak, they continue onto how the Pope is illegitimate and how Satan is in the Vatican, and the likes.

I too believe we need to at least get back to the spirit of the times before V2, but I would never go as far as some of these folks do in their condemnation.

I agree with you 100%.

Most Catholics on this forum agree with many/most of the complaints about the Novus Ordo, rebellious bishops, liturgical abuses, etc. etc.

Where it goes wrong is when *a few* traditionalists, (not part of the group of very fine traditionalists here who I admire) consider their fellow Catholics as not being Catholic if they do not attend the traditional Mass. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Also, while making claim of their own persecution, think nothing of making unjust sweeping judgements of other Catholics.

39 posted on 07/26/2003 9:43:46 AM PDT by sandyeggo
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Would you make those comments to Mgr. Shuler to his face?

Of all the places to knock, St. Agnes is about the last...but if the Munda Cor or Ps. 42 is absolutely required for your salvation, then there IS the Old Rite.
40 posted on 07/26/2003 9:44:18 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: samiam1972
It sounds like they have perfected loony liturgies. What diocese are you living in?

I think knowing the state of the Church when planning a move is very important. People consider the climate,the education system,the economy and the politics of an area when making moves.It seems that the condition of the Church should at least factored in the mix.

41 posted on 07/26/2003 9:45:51 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Dajjal
I think the English idiom would be to pluralize "salve" as "salutations."

The prayer I learned 45 years ago was "Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of all Mercy..."

"Hail" works, too.

42 posted on 07/26/2003 9:46:22 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Dajjal
You got the drift. Put into play by Ratzinger about 10 years ago. R. asked for, and got, a number of appointments to Vatican dicasteries, including Arinze.

Those two South Americans are also R.'s ideas. Two-fisted, no-nonsense types. Refreshing prose, by the way.
43 posted on 07/26/2003 9:48:25 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Dajjal
Your take comports with the prayer as I have said it for many years.

"Show unto us" is the translation, which implies at the very minimum, Purgatory--but a quick-pass-through St. Pete's station is the ideal.
44 posted on 07/26/2003 9:50:30 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: samiam1972
You are in WIsconsin--which Diocese?
45 posted on 07/26/2003 9:51:25 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: Dajjal
Mgr. Shuler, of St. Agnes, on the topic of "Children's Mass:"

"Yes, we have it. It is also the "Adult's Mass." We are preparing the children for adulthood, not childhood."

46 posted on 07/26/2003 9:53:38 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot
I didn't "knock" St. Agnes. I've been there and I like it. However, I said that I miss the parts of the Mass that are excised. So do others I know. Their being missing is not the fault of Msgr. Schuler.
47 posted on 07/26/2003 10:04:34 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ninenot; dsc
"Hail" works, too.
"Show unto us" is the translation, which implies at the very minimum, Purgatory--but a quick-pass-through St. Pete's station is the ideal.

Tell dsc. He (she?) is the one doing the new translation -- I suspect for a class, where demonstration that you know how the Latin word is being used is preferred to copying an English translation, however good, out of your prayer book.

48 posted on 07/26/2003 10:15:14 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
Oh. Well, in that case, I won't post the entire prayer. Let DSC sweat it out.
49 posted on 07/26/2003 10:18:56 AM PDT by ninenot (Torquemada: Due for Revival Soon!!!)
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To: ninenot; dsc
How else to explain the "Salutation, Queen, I greet you"? Good literal Latin, though the English is a bit awkward. He'd probably "used up" "Hail" elsewhere translating "Ave" and wanted something etymologically or definitionally closer to "Salve."
50 posted on 07/26/2003 10:33:05 AM PDT by Dajjal
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