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Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons
Zenit ^ | 07/31/2003 | Vatican - CDF

Posted on 07/31/2003 5:55:16 AM PDT by lrslattery

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To: jboot
**(Protestant denominations are you listening...?)**

What has recently happened in the Episcopal church is saddening to me. We need to pray for all those in leadership, including lay people.
51 posted on 07/31/2003 9:43:47 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
I'm sorry for your loss. My family has known similar pain.

But when given a negative, even blasphemous response when confronted with the truth - I cannot pretend to respect someone who revels in evil and calls it good.

Love means praying for their souls at that point.

52 posted on 07/31/2003 9:45:45 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Salvation
"We need to pray for all those in leadership, including lay people."

Indeed! Although I am not myself an Episcopalian, there are Episcopal churches on every corner here in conservative Virginia. It's hard to say just what those churches will do...schism would not surprise me in the least.

53 posted on 07/31/2003 9:53:25 AM PDT by jboot (Faith is not a work; swarming, however, is.)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Although i may be mistaken on the details

You are mistaken on the details and on the larger picture. Common law marriage is a feature of British common law and has existed in America from colonial days. One could argue that it is a Protestant phenomenon in its beginnings, because according to English law only the Church of England could solemnize marriages. A marriage witnessed by a Separatist preacher (i.e. a marriage between Presbyterians, Baptists, Congregationalists, etc.) would be a common law marriage because the C of E wouldn't recognize it prior to Cromwell.

Catholics did not introduce it to America, nor did the Church sanction it.

The Catholic Church provided the Catholic community of the US with traveling priests who were able to witness marriages, hear confessions and celebrate the Eucharist with great regularity, several times a year. The Southern and Western United States received ministration from Mexican and French priests in cases of need and the Eastern US had access to priests from Quebec and Ireland.

Common law marriage was never a regular or accepted feature of life in Catholic America.

54 posted on 07/31/2003 9:56:18 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
What Christ makes clear is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. After all, that's why we need a Savior. While consequences of sin may vary, He hates all sin. It doesn't do us much good to be spiritual snobs (also a sin), because we are nothing without Him. We aren't saved by our "fewer" or "lesser" sins than the next guy. Heck, we aren't even saved by our church membership, heritage, or baptism. It's all about Jesus.
55 posted on 07/31/2003 10:10:15 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: anniegetyourgun
So is the answer simply to ignore sins altogether? Not according to St. Paul.

There is a difference between those who are willing to say "I have sinned and I am sorry for it" and those who say "Sin? What a silly concept! There's nothing wrong with doing whatever I want!"

St. Paul tells us to avoid the latter like the plague.

56 posted on 07/31/2003 10:17:01 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: jboot
It's good to see somebody reacting to this nonsense.

Here is another post that should keep your spirits elevated ..

CONFUSIONS ABOUT POLITICAL JUDGMENT AND THE MORAL LAW

57 posted on 07/31/2003 10:18:25 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: wideawake
Ignore sin? I never suggested such a thing.
58 posted on 07/31/2003 10:21:10 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: NYer
At least some Protestant denominations are solidly and vocally anti-abortion. But none are so solid when it comes to opposing the homosexual agenda. It makes me wonder...
59 posted on 07/31/2003 10:22:41 AM PDT by jboot (Faith is not a work; swarming, however, is.)
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To: jboot
And I'm glad that there are some Catholics who oppose abortion and homosexuality too.
60 posted on 07/31/2003 10:29:28 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: wideawake
Good discussion!!

And I agree with you here -- it is finally where I ended up!
**Love means praying for their souls at that point.**
61 posted on 07/31/2003 10:39:55 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: lrslattery
Here is my list of Catholics and Politicians and posts about the same, including this thread. What can we do to call ALL politicians to see the light?

The Deadly Dozen

Canadian Prime Minister Taunts Church: "I Am A Catholic And For Abortion"

Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic

On Catholic Politicians and Faith

Vatican Urges Catholic Politicians to Vote Along Church Lines

Senator Santorum on Being Catholic and a Politician

William E. Simon, Sr. and Jr. Devout Catholics, Philanthropists and Politicians

Deadly Dozen senator taken to task over claims of Catholicism

THE BISHOP AND THE SENATOR [author links to FR thread regarding Daschle in her online column]

Blood On Their Hands: Exposing Pro-abortion Catholic Politicians

MI Gov Granholm Proclaims June "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month"

Colorado Governor To Media:'WE LOVE OUR CHURCH' [Gov. Bill Owens

U.S. Senator Brownback and Commentator Dick Morris Join Catholic Church

PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN [Richard Black, Virginia]

Kerry [Catholic} says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights

Pope to MPs: Stop gay marriage

Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons

62 posted on 07/31/2003 10:46:11 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Hey Doc,

Have you been to the NARTH site? If so, what do you think? Of all the theories and explanations, their's is the one I've come to see as the most convincing.

Here's the LINK

63 posted on 07/31/2003 10:51:20 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: wideawake
All sins are not the same in their gravity. Christ himself makes this plain in the Gospel.


35 posted on 07/31/2003 10:16 AM MDT by wideawake

Would you be so kind as to provide the citation; chapter and verse.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great
eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if
what Paul said was true.

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

64 posted on 07/31/2003 10:57:34 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>)
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To: jboot; irishtenor
Protestant denominations are you listening...?

The Presbyterian Church in America checking in. Examples of my older taglines speak for me:

The PCA, we're the intolerant ones!
The PCA, annoying the liberal church since 1983!

I.T., do you wish to add anything?

65 posted on 07/31/2003 10:58:00 AM PDT by Gamecock (Calvinism, it's not just a good idea, but Scripturaly correct!)
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To: wideawake
Thanks for the answer, wideawake.
66 posted on 07/31/2003 11:06:13 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: anniegetyourgun; wideawake
Annie,

I think the following from 1 Corinthians 5:1ff explains wideawake's position...

"It is widely reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of a kind not found even among pagans--a man living with his father's wife. And you are inflated with pride. Should you not rather have been sorrowful? The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst. I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus: when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not appropriate. Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all the dough? Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." [1 Cor 5:1-8]


67 posted on 07/31/2003 11:14:47 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: anniegetyourgun; jboot
And I'm glad that there are some Catholics who oppose abortion and homosexuality too.

As a denomination, Catholics oppose it. There are Catholics who oppose the Catholic teaching on homosexuality and abortion. Just like there are protestants who oppose the teachings of their denomination. However, there are denominations who teach that homosexuality is nothing more than an alternative lifestyle or, to a lesser degree, are silent on the issue.

68 posted on 07/31/2003 11:20:43 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Salvation
Thanks for this important post!
69 posted on 07/31/2003 11:22:03 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: XeniaSt
[1 John 5:16] If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
[1 John 5:17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
70 posted on 07/31/2003 11:24:38 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: ThomasMore
And I never said that the congregate in Corinth wasn't living in sin. Though he was not engaged in homosexuality, he was in sin....just as those who choose to have sex with others of the same sex. In fact, Christ said that even those who look upon another with lust in their heart are sinners. That's my point - we're all sinners in desparate need of a Savior.
71 posted on 07/31/2003 11:25:07 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: anniegetyourgun
In this instance, Paul did not implicate anyone to the degree he did this man.
72 posted on 07/31/2003 11:32:49 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: ThomasMore
Yes, there are several denominations that oppose such things. And within those denominations, there are many who do not adhere to the Truth of God. Thanks be to God that His remnant exists throughout the world. The Body of Christ exists within many denominational (and non-denominational) churches. She is The Church.
73 posted on 07/31/2003 11:33:18 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: ThomasMore
And here I thought it was an indictment of those in the congregation for not exercising church discipline against the sin in the camp.
74 posted on 07/31/2003 11:35:00 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: Salvation
Thanks for all the links...it will save me much frustration if/when I go back to review them. Most, if not all, I have read before. Many of them are excellent for exercising one's patience.

75 posted on 07/31/2003 12:15:40 PM PDT by lrslattery (AMDG)
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To: anniegetyourgun
It's the excommunication from the congregation by Paul.
76 posted on 07/31/2003 12:20:01 PM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: wideawake
General Revelation is known how? By right reason? By instinct? The Catholic would say the former.

Yes, that's exactly the difference between Catholic Natural theology and Reformed Natural theology. Being Reformed means not trusting reason because of the noetic effect of sin. Any knowledge we have outside of scripture is a priori knowledge which comes from God.

77 posted on 07/31/2003 12:30:57 PM PDT by lockeliberty (Semper Reformanda)
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To: lockeliberty
Any knowledge we have outside of scripture is a priori knowledge which comes from God.

How do we know that it is from God instead of from the adversary?

Presumably you would say by confirming it through the Scriptures - that true General Revelation cannot contradict Special Revelation.

78 posted on 07/31/2003 12:46:18 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: jboot
Churches have no business placing the unregenerate into a state of holy matrimony (regardless of whether this state is considered an ordinance or a sacrament). I see a terrific church-state battle developing here-what will happen when the state says that gay marriage is okay, but churches refuse to perform the ceremonies? How long until someone sues?

Bingo ! All that talk about giving churches money for their social action will eventually put them in the position of having to comply with all federal law (just as they destroyed education)

Church will be sued for discrimination and preaching about the sin of homosexuality ...There will be a religious/cultural war.

There is a bill in Canada that will forbid pastors reading or preaching passages that are anti gay , on the basis they may produce hatred and violence. Sodom is closer than we think!

79 posted on 07/31/2003 1:05:07 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
OrthodoxPresbyterian, CCWoody, and i represent the Libertarian wing of the Reforned faith...put your visions of hedonism and Ayn Rand aside for a minute.... Our wing of Calvinism holds that the State has no business at all regulating marriage, or relationships between conscenting ADULTS. The institution of marriage is a matter that should be exclusively within the sphere of the Church. As such, it is the Church that recognises or refuses to recoginse any given 'relationship' as a marriage. Before one can discuss the legalisation of any relationship as a marriage, the issue of unwarrented state interference into the realm of the Church must be considered...that would even include the issuance of "Marriage Liscenses", which is nothing more than getting state permission to marry!

I do agree with that statement , it is not the states business. But practically speaking the state will make its decisions relevant..no matter what personal beliefs we hold

80 posted on 07/31/2003 1:08:08 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: ThomasMore
I don't find that term used, but I do assume that discipline was administered and the offending party was sent out. However, that really doesn't explain why Paul spent so much time preaching to the Corinthians about their own spiritual maturity, while not even mentioning the name of the unrepentant one. ("I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.")

I think to focus on the obvious sin of the man is to miss the greater lesson to all believers. ("Do you not judge those who are within the church?....REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.")

81 posted on 07/31/2003 1:08:47 PM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: NYer
Thank you for posting this article, it reaffirms my thoughts on this issue.
82 posted on 07/31/2003 1:14:57 PM PDT by cpprfld (Who said accountants are boring?)
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To: wideawake
How do we know that it is from God instead of from the adversary?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness supress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and diety, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.
Even those who never had scripture had a knowledge of God. ie His moral law.
83 posted on 07/31/2003 1:41:23 PM PDT by lockeliberty (Semper Reformanda)
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To: RnMomof7
Sodom is here now. Can the angels be far off?
84 posted on 07/31/2003 1:53:32 PM PDT by jboot (Faith is not a work; swarming, however, is.)
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To: lockeliberty
And this is the Scriptural seat of the Catholic doctrine of right reason: that from examining the things that have been made (i.e. a posteriori deduction from creation) His invisible nature can be perceived.

St. Paul doesn't seem to be talking about solely a priori here, but rational discovery of natural law.

85 posted on 07/31/2003 1:54:34 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: ThomasMore
"Need some info and ammo."

Good luck with your radio show! Some scriptural trivia that may be useful (it certainly silenced a liberal priest in our last deanery meeting):

To those who would contend that the condemnation of homosexuality was only a feature of the OT or that the sin of the Sodomites was inhospitality quote Jude 7

"7 As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
8 In like manner these men also defile the flesh, and despise dominion, and blaspheme majesty."

It is one of the few places in scripture where people are confirmed as being definitely in hell for eternity, and it is most definitely NT and therefore inerrant.
86 posted on 07/31/2003 2:04:27 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: wideawake
And this is the Scriptural seat of the Catholic doctrine of right reason: that from examining the things that have been made (i.e. a posteriori deduction from creation) His invisible nature can be perceived. St. Paul doesn't seem to be talking about solely a priori here, but rational discovery of natural law.

I would agree that throughout history those without scripture developed a posteriori deductions from creation. But, also keep in mind that Israel was located in the middle of civilization (Golden Crescent) and because of trade a lot of a posteriori knowledge of the Jewish scripture was extended beyond Israel. Intially, however, we all are born with a conscience which is certainly a priori knowledge. It's the rejection of that a priori knowledge that leads to the worst sorts of evils.

God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.

87 posted on 07/31/2003 2:20:14 PM PDT by lockeliberty (Semper Reformanda)
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To: lockeliberty
Well we know three things: there is a law of God written on our hearts (conscience), there is the Word of God revealed (Scripture), and there is knowledge of God's nature from the things that are made (right reason).

We also know that the Scriptures can be misinterpreted and that reason can be misled.

So if one is Reformed, that leaves conscience as a guide to special revelation and to creation.

If one is Catholic, that leaves a well-formed conscience and the infallible magisterium as guides.

88 posted on 07/31/2003 2:30:56 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
So if one is Reformed, that leaves conscience as a guide to special revelation and to creation. If one is Catholic, that leaves a well-formed conscience and the infallible magisterium as guides.

You're confusing Reformed with independent Fundementalists. Reformed does not mean a rejection of all that went before in Church history. We do not accept any man or group of men as infallible. Thus, we accept the Creeds as good teaching but not necessarily divine. We refer to those teachers who went before but do not claim them to be infalliable. We constantly try to build on what has already been taught through returning to scripture and using whatever new resources or information that God provides. The Catholic Church runs into the condrum of progressive new historical revelation and trying to maintain a infalliable magisterium.

Let me quibble about one other thing in your previous post. No where in the scripture I cited did it say 'examine'. It just states that what we know of God intially is 'plain' and 'clearly perceived'.

89 posted on 07/31/2003 2:53:26 PM PDT by lockeliberty (Semper Reformanda)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...
`
90 posted on 07/31/2003 3:46:28 PM PDT by Coleus (God is Pro Life and Straight and gave an innate predisposition for self-preservation and protection)
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To: ThomasMore
NARTH is a great organization. I especially liked the page "Three Myths About Homosexuality."
91 posted on 07/31/2003 5:15:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Coleus
Thanks for the heads up!
92 posted on 07/31/2003 8:11:34 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: NYer
Excellent. Thanks. I just finished reading this on another thread. It's outstanding!
93 posted on 07/31/2003 8:26:07 PM PDT by Lady In Blue (Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld,Rice 2004)
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To: ThomasMore
I hadn't heard of Ave Maria Radio. What station, time is it on? Thanks.
94 posted on 07/31/2003 8:30:11 PM PDT by Lady In Blue (Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld,Rice 2004)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I could not agree more. This truth has played out in my dealing with MANY gays. At one time, I had many gay friends and everyone had been molested in some way during their childhood or early teen years-every one!
This was true for gay men anyway. I think hormonal disfunctions and severe rejection by a trusted person contributes more to lesbianism. I don't know as many lesbians, but the ones I do know have not had the childhood sexual abuse but seem to either have too much male hormone in their bodies or have experienced the severe rejection/criticism of either a mother or a trusted male like a husband.
95 posted on 07/31/2003 10:52:03 PM PDT by glory
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To: jboot
But none are so solid when it comes to opposing the homosexual agenda

None??

The PCA (Presbyterian Church in America, to which I belong) come to mind as an exception to your assertion.

Cordially,

96 posted on 08/01/2003 10:59:31 AM PDT by Diamond (Husband of wife over 40)
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To: Diamond
Thank God.
97 posted on 08/01/2003 12:10:20 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: jboot
How hard have you looked?
98 posted on 08/01/2003 12:15:30 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Wrigley
I shouldn't have to look. The opposition of the Vatican screamed at me from above the fold of my morning paper. I couldn't ignore it if I tried.

I expect no less from the Protestant denominations.

99 posted on 08/01/2003 1:22:46 PM PDT by jboot (Faith is not a work; swarming, however, is.)
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To: Gamecock
How about: It's in the Bible, stupid. Or: It's black and white, why do you want grey? Or even better: Read what comes after Leviticus 18:22, because that is next on the agenda.
100 posted on 08/01/2003 4:54:49 PM PDT by irishtenor (My God is omnipotent, sorry about yours. *** Swarming Calvinists Unite!***)
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