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Arminianism -- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Modern Pelagianism
Response to: Calvinism- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Geneva ^
| August 13, 2003
| OP
Posted on 08/13/2003 6:04:31 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: CARepubGal; Dr. Eckleburg
Will you tackle the Institutes? This was quite enlightening and informative. 19 posted on 08/13/2003 11:11 PM PDT by CARepubGalThank you... but NO.
I can, if I have great time to spare, tackle the Institutes one chapter at a time -- if that. But not all at once. Not even one Book out of Four at once.
Remember what the Institutes are: a thousand-page version of the Apostle's Creed. That's really all that John Calvin wrote.
I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
The third day he rose again from the dead:
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
I believe in the Holy Ghost:
I believe in the Holy Catholic Church: the communion of saints:
The forgiveness of sins:
The resurrection of the body:
And the life everlasting. Amen.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, and the Holy Catholic Church. That's the entire schematic of the Institutes, Books I through IV. That's all Calvin ever intended to do... The Institutes are nothing more (nor less) than a comprehensively holistic commentary on every possible aspect of the Apostle's Creed. Virtually every possible Scripture, and virtually every possible logical Argument, related to the Apostle's Creed is included therein. But since the whole of Scripture concerns the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Holy Catholic Church -- analyzing the Institutes amounts to a cross-referenced analysis of the entire Bible, all at once.
I think I am just about ready to take on a single book of Scripture -- the much-misunderstood Revelation of John. But take on the Institutes?? I might as well write a commentary on the Whole Bible. (don't tempt me...)
For the Institutes, being nothing more nor less than a thousand-page version of the Apostle's Creed, is already very nearly that, as it is. Maybe if I had a couple of days to spare, at least (grin).
best, op
21
posted on
08/13/2003 11:48:29 PM PDT
by
OrthodoxPresbyterian
(We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Cvengr; A.J.Armitage; dsc; connectthedots; lockeliberty; Wrigley; Law; ...
Servetus-shishkabob Bump.
22
posted on
08/14/2003 12:15:29 AM PDT
by
Dr. Eckleburg
(There are very few shades of gray.)
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
OP, thank you! Work has prevented me from tackling some of the more egregious piffle that has been thrown about in the last week, but I will be addressing it. This is a great help!
23
posted on
08/14/2003 3:01:34 AM PDT
by
nobdysfool
(Let God be true, and every man a liar...)
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I do like the term credobaptist for the reasons you mention.
24
posted on
08/14/2003 4:44:02 AM PDT
by
drstevej
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I find your 3 assertion argument a bit humerous. (referencing the first 'syllogism')
Leave it to a Calvinist to imply such an argument from past threads.
The Calvinist viewpoint seems to make themselves victims of such assumed implications.
25
posted on
08/14/2003 6:28:08 AM PDT
by
Cvengr
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; drstevej; RnMomof7; CCWoody; Jean Chauvin; Biblical Calvinist; ...
Ergo, John Calvin was not Christian; therefore his doctrines were not Christian; therefore his doctrines must be rejected. For the record, y'all know I don't play over here much anymore, but if some Arminians are really saying that Calvin wasn't a Christian because of the Servetus incident, then they're just being goofy.
Admittedly, at first reading the Servetus story sounds like a "gotcha" for Calvin. But that's wishful thinking on the part of some Arminians.
Calvin's actions regarding Servetus, whether right or wrong, have no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of his theology. The only perfect "theologian" (if you can really call Him that) was Christ. Every other one has/had human failings.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
We Calvinist Presbyterians, as you know, build most of our bridges with Calvinist Baptists. Don't they make a lot of noise when you pound the nails in, though?
27
posted on
08/14/2003 6:46:48 AM PDT
by
Alex Murphy
(Athanasius contra mundum!)
To: P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands
***For the record, y'all know I don't play over here much anymore, but if some Arminians are really saying that Calvin wasn't a Christian because of the Servetus incident, then they're just being goofy.***
Ping to Marlowe
28
posted on
08/14/2003 7:01:43 AM PDT
by
drstevej
To: Corin Stormhands
Calvin's actions regarding Servetus, whether right or wrong, have no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of his theology. The only perfect "theologian" (if you can really call Him that) was Christ. Every other one has/had human failings. Nicely said, Corin!
29
posted on
08/14/2003 7:16:49 AM PDT
by
Alex Murphy
(Athanasius contra mundum!)
To: drstevej
Ping to Marlowe Why are you pinging me here? You know you often accuse me of "playing to the Jury" but this little screed by OP is essentially nonsense (accusing Arminius of advocating murder) and nothing more than a silly attempt to " play to the jury", only in this case the jury seems to be absent.
Let us remember that Calvin stated that he was responsible for the "extermination of Michael Servetus". He even wrote an apologetic for the execution of heretics. Arminius' postion as stated by OP merely recognizes that the power granted to the State is ordained of God and the ruler (no matter how much of a despot he is) is instrument of God's judgement.
Now while that teaching is clearly consistent with Romans 13, there is a problem that both Arminius and Calvin both shared. They saw the State as an instrument for cleansing and purifying the church, and failed to recognize that the State is almost universally an instrument of corruption and greed by those who seek temporal power.
Utilizing Calvin and Arminius' views and reverting them back to the first 3 Centuries after Christ, the persecution of the early Christians is at least as equally justified under this premise as the burning of Michael Servetus. Since the Christian Church was in essence in active rebellion against the power of the State, it can be argued that the Christian Church itself was in a similar state of Apostacy and heresy and insurrection as Servetus was when he fell into the hands of Calvin and his City Government. So by that reasoning the persecution of the Church by the Ceasers was nothing less than God himself ridding the Christian Church of evildoers, heretics and insurrectionists.
IMHO both Arminius and Calvin were corrupted by the power that flowed from the illicit and adulterous marriage between the Church and the State. The Church (the true church) is the bride of Christ. The false Church is the bride of the power of the State.
30
posted on
08/14/2003 7:25:38 AM PDT
by
P-Marlowe
(Milquetoast Q. Whitebread is alive!)
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; LiteKeeper; bonfire; Jerry_M; the_doc
Pity there's so few of you. God bless.... ~ OP
Well, to be honest, I have considered finding a Reformed Episcopalian church on more than one occation, with having spent the first 18 years of my life as an Episcopalian. I think that, given the apostate nature of the ECUSA, one could find a wonderful growth of Calvinism among our seperated EC brothers as they travel the road I walked out of her.
Woody.
P.S. "J", have you been looking through that 1662 prayerbook link I sent you? The 39 Articles in the back used to be what all us Episcopalians were all about.
31
posted on
08/14/2003 7:38:05 AM PDT
by
CCWoody
(Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
To: CCWoody
To: Corin Stormhands
I agree with Corin.
As usual. :>)
33
posted on
08/14/2003 7:55:50 AM PDT
by
xzins
To: Corin Stormhands
I agree with Corin.
As usual. :>)
34
posted on
08/14/2003 7:56:09 AM PDT
by
xzins
To: xzins
Double blessing? Second work of agreement?
To: Corin Stormhands
Well, I'm on a different computer at my daughter's place in New Jersey.
It isn't at all the same
36
posted on
08/14/2003 8:08:52 AM PDT
by
xzins
To: Corin Stormhands
Calvin's actions regarding Servetus, whether right or wrong, have no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of his theology. To hear amny Calvinists speak, this comment would be hard to surmise. Why is it so difficult for Calvinists to comsider the real possibility that Calvin's theology contains errors? Once again, I am not an Arminian; I'm just a mere Christian.
The only perfect "theologian" (if you can really call Him that) was Christ. Every other one has/had human failings.
Calvin's personal failings are quite well known. Would you please identify a few of his theological 'failings'? Surely you must know of some aspect of his teaching with which you disagree; of is his theology 'perfect'?
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Good response, thanks for taking the time to defend the faith once delivered to the saints. Soli Deo Gloria!
38
posted on
08/14/2003 8:26:46 AM PDT
by
AZhardliner
(Presbyterian Pastor (PCA))
To: P-Marlowe
IMHO both Arminius and Calvin were corrupted by the power that flowed from the illicit and adulterous marriage between the Church and the State. The Church (the true church) is the bride of Christ. The false Church is the bride of the power of the State. Well stated.
To: connectthedots
***Why is it so difficult for Calvinists to comsider the real possibility that Calvin's theology contains errors? ***
CTD, this is a ludicrous statement. I disagree with Calvin on many points. I know of no Calvinist, including Calvin, who view his views as without error.
Leave your hatred behind.
40
posted on
08/14/2003 8:33:25 AM PDT
by
drstevej
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