An Orthodox Christian View of Non-Christian Religions

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America ^

[MarMema]

Others - Prime witness/conversion opportunity

That's too bad.

Did you know?

"The Orthodox have experienced more brutal and lasting persecution than any other Christian body. Under Soviet atheism, for example, communists closed 98 percent of the Orthodox churches in Russia, as well as 1,000 monasteries and 60 seminaries. Between 1917 and the outbreak of World War II, some 50,000 Orthodox priests were martyred."

"Orthodox Christians number about 215 million worldwide, with about 5.6 million in the United States. This makes American Orthodoxy about the size of the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) and the Episcopal Church together."

I believe we are the second largest Christian church in the world.

[MarMema]

"For our God is a consuming fire"

Thanks.

[taxcontrol]

I do not understand your comments. I classify the Orthodox and Conservative Christians. The "Others" would be reserved for pagans, wickan, godless, etc.

[MarMema]

Sorry. I thought you put us into the "others" category.

[taxcontrol]

Nope - I put the Orthodox solidly in the Conservative Cristian camp. Still not sure about the Protestant/Catholic label and don't know enough of the doctrine to know how to classify.

Perhaps a category on it's own?
Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox?

I always found that witnessing to other Christians is like preaching to the choir. And I find fighting over Dogma much like the preacher having an arguement with the Choir director - a whole lot of air gets past but little gets done.

I tend to get much better results witnessing to those that don't know about our Savior. I figure going after the other team is better than going after someone on the same side.

[Binghamton_native]

This is an old and tired canard that is routinely used by Roman Catholics, and apparently also by the Orthodox. Funny, but I don't know any Protestants who believe in salvation alone through the finished work of Christ that believes that those of like faith are going to Hell. You obviously don't have a good grasp of Protestentism.

[RussianConservative]

I'd be willing to bet we spend more time with Scripture on a Sunday morning than most protestant churches do.

Is that before or after speach of damnation and fire or after group hug and guitar play?

[RussianConservative]

Good attitude.

[Guyin4Os]

But actually this is not true for us. I'd be willing to bet we spend more time with Scripture on a Sunday morning than most protestant churches do

Commendable. But if you don't believe in sola scriptura, you believe the church can override the teaching of the scripture. This view of authority can cause all kinds of problems, not to mention the discounting of the sufficiency and efficiency of faith in Christ... Just like we have seen in this thread.

All that aside, however, I appreciate your love for the Lord. And I do appreciate the godly folks in orthodox churches.

[George W. Bush]

I believe that God's love and mercy are beyond our comprehension and therefore beyond our predictions.

I agree. As long as no one tries to pretend you can be a Christian without knowing Christ.

The sheep know their Shepherd and He His flock.

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Uh-oh. Be careful. Someone might accuse you of believing that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation. Some mean person might even suggest you've hung around a few Calvinists...

At any rate, nice quote. We Calvinists never tire of those verses.

With much love and humility, are you then saying that you are most definitely saved?

I am confident in my salvation, as much as anyone can be. I'll point out that though the apostles spoke of the Elect, they never called themselves that. Paul mentioned the possibility even of winning the souls of many as an evangelist but failing to be saved himself and his example urges caution.

Our confidence in God and our standing with Him is always a personal matter. No one, including ourselves, can be certain of our eternal fate in this life. But we can be personally confident of our Lord and His work in redeeming us.

And yet, a Christian may have spiritual experiences, some completely unexpected, some that may not be apparent to them for years, that testify to them of their own personal faith and their relationship with God. I think most often this is a private thing. And it is a thing that can never be fully conveyed to others what its full meaning was and is. And yet, this testimony of one's own heart, these unspeakable spiritual experiences, are that which provides to a believer that faith and that confidence for which no more words would ever really need be spoken. Except to say, "Thank you, my Lord."

I think you know the kinds of reassuring and astounding experiences that I'm trying so poorly to describe.

Because it seems to me like you are taking an act of God and making it your own "work", that of accepting Christ. Which would make you a front-row participant in your own salvation, if not the very reason for it.

Are you sure you're responding to my #50 in which I was presenting the absolute property rights of God over all creation? Well, I'll respond as best I can.

First, I'll say that I think I was a front-row participant. I just sat there and God did everything. I think salvation is a spectator-sport, so to speak. By the time a person actually responds to God's quickening of the spirit and His extension of grace, the real work is done. The new Christian mostly assents to that which God has wrought in him spiritually.

Real faith is a supernatural gift of God and, in my opinion, is nearly impervious. Of what use would a faith that could be broken like a toy actually be to the God of all creation when He quickens the dead spirit of a man lost in his sins and grants him the gift of faith so that he might be saved through confessing Christ as his Lord? A faith that can be broken like a twig is no faith at all.

My preference is to leave God's work up to God.

My preference too. Since I fortunately have no choice in the matter and would be unfit to do His work. Sinful human beings would only make a mess of it were they granted control over salvation. We Calvinists are content to leave God's work in salvation in His hands. Our Arminian friends think they can help God out. What a pity they don't see that God never really needs our help. He appreciates our willingness to help Him by witnessing or presenting the gospel but He needs the help of no man in accomplishing the purposes of His creation.

[George W. Bush]

With strictist interpretation of words, then how protestants not accept that all Jews damned? After all they reject Christ....or is that exception since it not fit new political views? Can not have it both ways, get cake but you can't enjoy it.

Chrisitans since the time of the apostles have believed that all men need Christ. Scripture teaches this over and over. The apostles were Jews. Most of the early church were Jews.

It is our duty as Christians to evangelize all men for Christ. That would include Jews.

Southern Baptists and other conservative evangelicals and Protestants have never abandoned the evangelization of Jews. Only the Roman church (in recent years) has, following in the wake of some of the liberal Protestants. They are all under the sway of an ecumenical political correctness that insists there are many paths to God, some of which don't require Christ.

So you accept Jews are damned? I not say this in racism of Jews I'm just puzzled by schizophrenic protestant view...all peoples without explicit prayer in Christ damned, well all except Jews...why? By your views they should all be damned.

It doesn't matter what I say. Scripture and the most ancient tradition of the church insist that all need Christ. Without exception.

[George W. Bush]

But if you don't believe in sola scriptura, you believe the church can override the teaching of the scripture.

I don't perceive this in the Orthodox in the same way we see it in the Roman church. I think that the Roman church has aggrandized their pope to the point of overriding scripture and inventing novel doctrine and that this requires a pope who can override scripture and tradition.

I'm not sure that the present article on this thread is actually representative of the entire Orthodox church. I think it represents their liberal theologians. I have no idea how many of their churches teach this or how many of the priests support it or how many ordinary believers accept it.

In contrast, those in the Roman church have been compelled to believe it by their hierarchy. As always, the role of the inner conscience and adherence to the traditions of the ancient church can be overridden at will by the Roman hierarchy. In this case, to pursue a politically correct ecumenical dialog with Jews.

[MarMema]

you believe the church can override the teaching of the scripture

I can't believe that is a possibility for us. I have never heard anything like this stated or implied. In any of the Orthodox churches I have attended, Holy Scripture is given the most prominent place.

We do have tradition, but "Among the elements which make up the Holy Tradition of the Church, the Bible holds the first place."

Also found this to share.

[Cvengr]

Some confusion may exist here.

Jesus Christ, the person as the Son of God, is known by at least 650 names throughout Scripture.

The crimson thread of redemption is strung throughout evey book of Scripture.

The Father, the Son and the Spirit all performed different functions in the Plan of God.

We are saved by that great impersonal love of God, wherein a New Covenant was sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

God created man perfect in the Garden of Eden and upon the Fall, the penalty of sin was death or a separation from God.

Man is body, soul and spirit, but man's spirit was separated from God in the Garden. There was no Perfect Sacrifice available to man to re-enter into a spiritual relationship with God in righteousness until the incarnation of God in the Son known to us as Jesus Christ.

The sacrifice of Christ provided an atonement for all sin. Yet by any man's acceptance of the sacrifice through faith in Him, God's justice is shown to be righteous. The reason why faith is the issue is that faith is a non-meritorious act of volition on the part of the believer which honors the Son and thereby places man in position to receive an efficacious grace by the Holy Spirit. The sin was judged on the cross by the Father. The Son performed the Sacrifice and it was sealed as His blood, and the Holy Spirit allows a common grace to hear the Gospel and an efficiacious grace to make that faith effective for salvation in the believer.

It might be noted that until one is a believer, they are born merely in body and soul, dead in the spirit. Just as there is a bodily life, a soulish conscience and life, and a living Spirit, so in man prior to believing, we are soulish brutes. Alive in flesh and soul, but if we do not believe, we remain dead (separated from God the Spirit) in our trespasses and sins, or in a state of separation from God.

Death is not a case of non-existence. It is merely a state of separation. If we die in the body biologically, the soul and spirit depart the body.

Prior to the Cross, those who died still had no redeemer to allow them entrance to heaven. They were placed as believers in Abraham's bosom or as unbelievers in the Torments. Upon Jesus Christ's crucifixtion, He passed His Spirit to the Father, His soul departed to Hades, but when judged He had no unrighteousness in Him. Christ therefore conquered death, His soul returned to His body, and God returning His Spirit to Him displayed the Resurrection.

After a period, He also ascended to be placed on the right hand of God the Father.

If man today fails to accept faith in Jesus Christ, then that lack of faith simply leaves him in that state of spiritual separation from God. Such a man stands onvicted already since the original sin of Adam resulted in the separation of the spirit from God. If we die biologically, our soul departs the body, is then placed in the Torments.

It stands for man to die once (biological bodily death) and then for the judgment.

Note that Jesus Christ was judged on the Cross for the sins of all mankind. He was the Perfect Sacrifice, body, soul and spirit as a man. So sin has already been judged. Forgiveness comes at the point of salvation whereby through faith we have positional righteousness with God.

The believers' names are in the Book of Life, and then the Book of Works will be opened, and those without faith in Christ will have their works judged for righteousness. Where the work fails to have been performed while righteous in the eyes of God, the work lacks positive righteousness and is considered worthless if not good for nothing to be cast out and burnt.

The consequence for the sinner who rejects the substitutionary atonement for sin by Jesus Christ, means that person lacks divine righteousness and even if he has many human good works, still lacks divine good work and will be cast off as good for nothing.

If one is called by the Father and rejects Christ, then damnation is a natural consequence. Placing faith in the Son, allows God through the Holy Spirit to effect salvation.

Considering all things were created by Him, there is nothing in environment which fails to provide testimony of Him. We are fortunate today to not only have the same creation about us which testifies to Him, but also the Gospel record of His incarnation to directly communicate these things.

[Guyin4Os]

I can't believe that is a possibility for us...the Bible holds the first place

This is what "sola scriptura" means. It means that the scripture is the Word of God. And as the Word of God, it is our source of authority for faith and practice. If a church doctrine or practice disagrees with scripture, the scripture prevails and the doctrine or practice should be changed to comport with the clear teachings of the scripture.

When someone says "I don't believe in sola scriptura," that tells me that there is some other overriding authority that they DO believe in. In the case of the RCC it is the church. When you, MarMema, said that, I assumed that you too believe the church is the authority that can override the scripture.

If you say the Church can't override scripture, then when there is disparity between something a representative of the church says and scripture, the clear teachings of the scripture must prevail over the speculations of the individual. So in the case of this article, you stated that the notion that pious people who do not believe in Christ can be saved was something that may be true. That is what speculation is. The clear teaching of scripture is that belief in Christ is what is required, AND is sufficient, for individual salvation. You either believe the church can override that teaching, or it cannot. If it cannot, you do believe in sola scriptura. If it can override it, then you believe that the Church, not scripture, "holds the first place."

[MarMema]

Uh-oh. Be careful. Someone might accuse you of believing that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation

And that is exactly what I hope for when it comes to some children I remember from an orphanage in Russia, some years ago when we were there adopting our youngest daughter Irina. Most of them disabled and not likely to be adopted, and all of them beautiful, having been created by God.

You see my husband and I took some serious leaps of faith in deliberately adopting children who were pretty much considered unadoptable and not likely to get families.
Which is all fine and well as God has blessed us enormously for these leaps and shown His love for our children in some nearly miraculous outcomes for them so far.

But when you go to places where children are housed that are considered unadoptable, you have to go home with the memories of all those little faces and what their life is going to be for them after you leave. I figure their chances of being introduced to Christ are pretty slim. So I cling to the hope the Orthodox church offers me, that God in His tremendous mercy and love, will offer salvation to these children someday in spite of their lack of inclusion in any Christian church.

[MarMema]

I truly don't understand why Scripture and the church have to be a "one-or-the-other" thing. Here are what some of the Holy Fathers of the Orthodox church have said.

St. Athanasius (c.296-373):
"The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth."

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):
"For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures."

St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):
"...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings."

St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407):
"....Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things..."

St. Basil the Great (c.329-379):
".....Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth."

When I said that the Orthodox church is not sola scriptura, I meant that we also include tradition in our faith. That is, we read the Holy Fathers quoted above for inspiration, and we have a liturgy, etc.

[MarMema]

Also perhaps more text from the link above would be helpful.

"Among the elements which make up the Holy Tradition of the Church, the Bible holds the first place. Next comes the Church's liturgical life and its prayer, then its dogmatic decisions and the acts of its approved churchly councils, the writings of the church fathers, the lives of the saints, the canon laws, and finally the iconographic tradition together with the other inspired forms of creative artistic expression such as music and architecture. All of the elements of Holy Tradition are organically linked together in real life. None of them stands alone."

[MarMema]

I believe the Orthodox church stipulates that salvation is dependent on "the measure of truth and Grace" available to us while here on earth. Which means that a severely retarded individual, for example, who could not reach out for Christ on his or her own, and was never offered the chance to know Christ through caretakers, would then have a good chance at salvation and the eternal kingdom.

And this would be, I believe, a loving and merciful act of a loving and merciful God. To say otherwise, imho, is to cast doubt on the love and mercy of God, is it not?

[MarMema]

I think it represents their liberal theologians. I have no idea how many of their churches teach this or how many of the priests support it or how many ordinary believers accept it.

I think in many ways, especially here in the US, the Greeks are the more liberal of our crew. I was especially shocked by the one sentence in this writing. "Orthodoxy recognizes and accepts the mandate to seek Truth and to follow the Holy Spirit wherever He leads, including in other religions or philosophies when his Truth is to be found there." I seriously doubt that my spiritual father would find this to be an acceptable statement. I will ask next time I get the chance.

However, it is universally accepted, or at least in Serbian, Russian, and American parishes I have been involved with, that we don't know who will be saved, and that no one is guaranteed salvation or lack of it.