Church faces serious moral problems, according to Rome director of Human Life International

Catholic Herald ^ | Aug. 21, 2003 | Candy Czernicki

[dsc]

"I agree, and you have Catholic converts responsible for the guideline debacle for homeschoolers on shows telling the Catholic viewing audience how to live as Catholics after they have done everything in their own power to undermine that very concept."

Umm, is that intended to imply something about converts?

[Arthur McGowan]

Fr. Barreiro noted one difference that novus ordo followers often mention — the fact that in the Tridentine rite, the priest’s back is to the congregation.

There is not a syllable in the rubrics of the New Mass or in any Vatican document from Vatican II on that mandates turning the priest around to face the people. This is simply a liturgical abuse that few priests have the courage to resist, because there are few people in the pews who could ever be brought to comprehend why it should be resisted.

[tiki]

Good find

[ThomasMore]

All pinnacles have different heights.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

[tiki]

arrogance, pride, haughtiness, superiority, over-confidence, superiority, condecension, self-importance, supercilliousness. Need I say more.

[Land of the Irish]

arrogance, pride, haughtiness, superiority, over-confidence, superiority, condecension, self-importance, supercilliousness = Novus Ordo.

Need I say more?

[narses]

Of course, and you are right that every valid Mass includes Our Lord, Body and Blood. In some cases (emergencies, wars, predations), the Mass may include only the barest elements necessary for the Miracle and He will be Present. But, what those you are disagreeing with appear to be saying is that, IN ADDITION to the Infinite Gift of His Body and Blood, the Mass can and should teach. I misrecall the latin phrase, but we believe as we worship. The new liturgy, especially as twisted and abused by the Enemy, fails to teach in the same way as the Traditional liturgy does.

[Northern Yankee]

I worry when people make assumptions about which Mass is more superior.

Are we not all called to the Eucharist?

When we see the transubstantiation(sp?) take place during the Mass, are we not given to awe at the presence of the Body and Blood of Jesus?

No matter what order of Mass we tend to choose, we are blessed to be a part of something miraculous.

God has provided us with the freedom to choose, and his blessings are abundant to all who partake. It is those blessings that allow us to become better men and women who can serve God, and share in the apostolic to our friends and neighbors.

God Bless!

[Salvation]

You really are into this schism thing aren't you?

What I posted had nothing to do with EWTN. It was just one of their referenced documents. And one thing I like to do is reference my posts -- unlike some posters here!

[Salvation]

**The new liturgy, especially as twisted and abused by the Enemy, fails to teach in the same way as the Traditional liturgy does.**

In what ways?

I have found that priests are more than willing to use the liturgy to teach from. We will not be the ones to judge, however. That will be up to God.

[Salvation]

**Are we not all called to the Eucharist?**

Indeed we are! Thanks for this simple reminder!

[tiki]

I couldn't agree with you more. There is one God, one Jesus and one Sacrifice and since there is only one none are superior or inferior if they are valid.

What I don't understand or agree with is the separation in the Church and the accusations of the NO which is a valid Mass whether they like it or not. I don't understand why they think that Jesus would want them to separate themselves from the main body of the Church to protect their own faith.

Where I think they are arrogant is that they'd rather separate, disparage other Catholics, believe in thier own intelligence rather than follow the path of Jesus who persevered to the end of His earthly life trying to make God's Kingdom known and promised to never abandon the Church that He had established.

If they want to separate because they truly find their spirituality in the Tridentine Mass then so be it. And if I see that the fruits of their decision is overwhelming and I want to start attending Tridentine Masses then so be it. But to trash the pope and trash anything to do with the NO Mass is just senseless and silly. Constructive criticism might be okay working within to correct error and promote faith would be even better.

I've said it before, the Church is not perfect. There are abuses but God is omnipotent and if Jesus died for us to save us then He loved us enough even though He knew our weaknesses. He gave us a Church to guide us and He gives Himself to us in the Eucharist. God is omnipotent. He can overcome man's obstinacy, man's pride and man's error. He is the protector of the faith and He has said that He would not let the gates of hell prevail over His Church. I think that losing faith in the Catholic Church is almost like losing faith in Jesus.

I also think that if you think that the Catholic Church of the past is the only solution then you think that the Holy Spirit is misleading the Church. Just as I don't sit myself in judgement of Jews, Protestant, or athiests I don't judge the Church as a body, God can handle that without me.

[Land of the Irish]

You really are into this schism thing aren't you?

Nope, I'm into Catholicism, not a "New, World Church".

[Smocker]

The facts cannot be denied, a specific group of converts did what they did. Now the same group is on EWTN touting how Catholic people should live. Far be it for me to imply anything, I prefer to stick to the facts and to let the convert actions speak for themselves.

[Maximilian]

The church needs to address why couples no longer want to have large families,

Agreed.

and I do not believe it has anything to do with changes in the mass.

Are you sure of that? Clearly it has something to do with changes in the Faith. People are no longer living their lives based on Faith and reliance on divine providence. Instead they are living a consumer lifestyle which may or may not include attending church on Sunday morning. Of all the changes to the Faith, all of which certainly are significant, isn't the change to the Mass the biggest one of all?

[Maximilian]

Not to change the focus of HLI, but werent they the ones who started promoting the CCL version of sex ed?

I don't believe that's the case. Fr. Marx was teaching NFP before Humanae Vitae, and before he founded HLI. But at that time there was still the concept of "grave reasons," it wasn't promoted as a lifestyle.

There was an ineter-regnum when Fr. Marx was forcibly committed to house arrest at his Benedictine order, and HLI was taken over by some liberals. These traitors temporarily agreed to withdraw the severe criticisms that Fr. Marx had made of the bishops' sex ed programs.

But after a year or two, there was a counter-coup, the liberals were thrown out, true followers of Fr. Marx were installed in all the key positions, and the first major statement by the new administration was that they were withdrawing HLI's temporary disclaimer of their opposition to sex ed programs.

[RaginCajunTrad]

"I pay no mind to EWTN..."

It appears that while there have always been some inconsistencies on EWTN, since the confinement of Mother Angelica almost 2 years ago, there has begun a more liberal tilt in the network's programming. The possible exception was the replacing of Jeff Cavins with Fr. Francis Mary on "Life on the Rock." To me, the future of the programming may be grim for us traditionalists.

I miss Mother Angelica's blunt talk like when she chastised Cardinal Mahoney. I never could understand why the network would allow charismatics on and ignore the Tridentine Mass movement. The only thing I could think of, and have heard espoused, was that promoting the Tridentine Mass would conflict with EWTN's own liturgical agenda, which is the "reform of the reform" a la The Adoremus Society.

[dsc]

"Far be it for me to imply anything"

It seems to me that you are quite deliberately implying something, and I get the sense that what you are implying is very insulting to converts.