Church faces serious moral problems, according to Rome director of Human Life International

Catholic Herald ^ | Aug. 21, 2003 | Candy Czernicki

[Desdemona]

People in first-world countries are starting to think for themselves and take charge of that part of their lives they can control. That is the root of the problem.

They also can control consumerism and materialism and in the US choose not to. THAT is a BIIIIGGGG part of the problem. The "I want my cake that somebody else baked and eat it on fine china with a vintage Sauterne and not gain any weight" attitude that pervades the US today.

I know a lot of Catholic families with a lot of kids and they always seem to be able to make it. When I was little, there was a parish clothes exchange system of sorts. We passed stuff amongst ourselves. There was a young girls dress coat that I wore in the seventies that's still circulating. That's one of many things that we did.

The big thing is that people today spend too much money on stuff they really don't need and don't have basic skills that would save them money in the long run, like sewing, knowing how to put up summer fruits and vegetables. That sort of thing.

[Aliska]

I do agree with you and wish we could roll back the clock to where things didn't take as large a portion of paychecks to obtain the basics. People don't want to live in bad neighborhoods where rent and home ownership is cheaper, especially in the big cities, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to escape that. Still, just to send a lot of kids to catholic school is very costly for a lot of catholic couples.

I'm so p**** about something else. I have a friend who is handicapped and she goes to catholic church every Sunday and is trying to be a good girl (28 years). She dreams of a beautiful wedding and having children and it is hard for me to imagine that it could happen for her, but nothing is impossible, of course.

She lives in subsidized housing and the handyman (60 yrs) has been using his passkey to get into her apartment and take liberties with her late at night when she is tired after having worked at a pizza place to supplement her SSI. It may be consensual or not, but the b*** crossed the line and I am going to report the situation on Monday. He told her that if she told, she would lose her apartment. Sound familiar?

[Land of the Irish]

Have you ever seen a gay Mass?

They're all around us!

Gay Masses I

Gay Masses II

Gay Masses III

Gay Masses IV

Gay Masses V

I can also show you pictures of clown Masses, but I'm sure you've seen them already.

[Maximilian]

Now, what do you think about HLI selling Focus on the Family books, and Dr. Dobson books?

This is not something I'm familiar with, although if it is true, then I would find it disturbing. In general, I'm not in favor of "heretics united to fight abortion." Only the Catholic Church has the Truth that allows our culture to be informed by the reality of grace, and therefore to truly fight the reality of evil. Other sorts of efforts are only window dressing.

[Maximilian]

re: family size... I think it does have something with to do with the concept whereby any document on Catholic faith or morals which existed prior to Vatican II is ignored, however, Vatican II documents in all their fuzzy glory are constantly quoted

Yes, excellent point. This is very true.

It may not all have something to do with the Mass

One would have to hear the whole talk by Fr. Barreiro, but I think he has a good point. When everything is up for grabs, why should one issue be exempt? If the Church can change the Mass, then why can't they change the teaching on contraception?

[Loyalist]

A list of all the priests who have ever been associated with Dignity would be a useful shortlist for bishops and investigators looking to identify and purge sex offenders from the priesthood.

Those on the list who are not ephebophiles or pedophiles quite likely know those who are, others with whom they associate, where, and when.

[Smocker]

I noticed Fr. Barreiro celebrated a Tridentine Mass. I personally go to a NO Mass. I use a prayer book first published in 1925, it includes prayers to pray at Mass while the priest celebrates Mass. It is in my opinion richer in spirituality than the simple, desert like, stripped prayers one encounters at the Mass of these modern times. I think these modern day prayers lack a great deal which the older prayers contained, and that this is also a contributing factor to the loss of understanding and knowledge of the faithful about the Mass and their Faith.

Discussions before these arrid translations would not have descended to whether or not Jews were saved. Public Prayers from those times included prayers for the conversion of Jews. If it was not necessary to convert them, the prayers would not have been prayed.

How we pray does indeed shape how we believe.

The questions you bring up are exactly what disconcert me. Not only that, but instead of thinking that one has a firm rock to stand on by being Catholic, I increasingly get the sense that it is a constantly shifting sand pile.

[dsc]

"ON the other hand, if a convert wants to live as a good and faithful Catholic, then by all means I would applaud them, and let me assure you that there are plenty of Catholic converts in the public arena who are terrific apologists for the Catholic Faith."

Okay, I'll take that at face value.

The way you're expressing yourself, though, makes it easy to get the impression that you're saying that converts are second-class citizens and, as a group, less than trustworthy.

[dsc]

"I think these modern day prayers lack a great deal which the older prayers contained, and that this is also a contributing factor to the loss of understanding and knowledge of the faithful about the Mass and their Faith."

Absolutely. And when older prayers are dusted off and used, often they are altered to water them down.

"I increasingly get the sense that it is a constantly shifting sand pile."

Well, the objective of the modernists was to create just that situation, to transmogrify the faith into a shifting and unreliable pile of sand.

[saradippity]

Maybe we should start a new trend,we could all take our old pre N.O. missals to Church and read them during the Mass. I think reading the beautiful prayers in Latin or English would benefit all of us.Whst do you think about that? It might cause someone to ask what we are doing and then we would have a perfect oppurtunity to tell them how edifying the old Mass was and cite some passages.

[Smocker]

No, and I am sorry I did not make myself clear to you.

It never ceases to amaze me when I meet someone who is a convert in this day and age. I think, It is truly God's grace calling them to the Catholic Church. To those I get a chance to ask, they will say things like, "I went thru 4 RCIA classes, before finding one that really explained things". So, I am always impressed at their perseverence, and their love of the Faith. Further, I am impressed by the converts who stay home and homeschool their children in the FAith, even when the liberal Catholics which they meet come down on them for being faithful to Church teachings, and being open to children.

I have a sister in law who recently converted, and a sister in law who converted many years ago, and a brother in law that is not Catholic. Who would I be to critisize them? I've always loved them, no matter if the converted or not. I apologize for the misunderstanding of my thoughts.

[dsc]

No problem. I'm glad you weren't saying what I thought you were.

[dsc]

Might work.

I tried muttering the credo other prayers and responses in Latin, but nobody asked me what I was doing.

Maybe the Church I usually attend is just too cosmopolitan. We get people from, I think, every continent except Antarctica.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Not to mention the charismatic, opus dei, influence as well.

Opus Dei is the furthers thing from the Holy Rollers you can find in the Church.

What in the heck are you talking about?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Far better would it have been for the Church to have permitted barrier (only) contraception and even eccliastical (for breaking the vows, only) divorce and have kept the Latin Mass.

UGHH! If the Church permitted contraception and divorce, she would betray her divine nature by teaching false and heretical morals.

The new Mass is simply a different set of words to achieve the same ends. 1970 was hardly the first time the Mass was reformed, if a brief reading of Church history is any guide.

If this is the thinking promoted by whatever Latin Mass you attend, I truly pity your ignorance and disbelief. Are you sure you are a Catholic?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Max: people have been wrapped up in consumerism since at least the 1920's. Pull out a long term demographic of the US, and note the longstanding decline in the birth-rate since the late 1800's.

Again, I'll harp on this, both the number of marriages and the number of infant baptisms in the Catholic Church in the US during the past 15 years, and during the height of the "baby boom" from 1948-1963 are roughly the same. If its all "changes in faith" and "contraception" since 1965, how is this even remotely possible? The numbers shouldn't even be close!

The rampant materialism of Catholics since the 1920's is obvious in the Churches built since the return of prosperity after WWII. Uniformly ugly and nearly unrecognizeable as Churches, both before and after Vatican II.

How about a survey on "living a consumer lifestyle" among the Catholics here? I have one car, a '98 Camry, an 1800 sq. ft. 3 bedroom house on a small lot, and 3 kids with more to come. Most of my mostly Catholic neighborhood in the city is pretty similar, as are the other Catholic neighborhoods. Is my neighborhood more "rampantly consumeristic" than the people at your Parish?

Last thought, I'm unfamiliar with any differences in "the Faith" in the past 2000 years. Perhaps you mean differences in disciplines?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

It happens at a Black Mass also.

Since the Black Mass is not a "Catholic rite" it is impossible any sacrament is confected by using it. More is needed than just saying "This is my body" and "This is my blood".

[Hermann the Cherusker]

A Mass without right intention to "do what the Church does" is not a Mass. Plain and simple. "Worshipping Satan" is not part of the Church's intention.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Still, just to send a lot of kids to catholic school is very costly for a lot of catholic couples.

You are living in "non-Catholic land" then. Why not move if its important to you?

In the Philadelphia Archdiocese, sending four kids to Catholic elementary school is about $200-$250 per month for all four COMBINED (more kids does nto greatly change the bill). High School is $3500 per year per child, capped at tuition for two children maximum (the third and fourth child would be free if attending simultaneously).