Posted on 03/26/2003 10:02:01 PM PST by billbears
I didn't say you said that. I was just saying what I said.
And it did evoke a few opinions.
Yes, meaning that you do not see all the guilt by association that dominates the piece. As my last post demonstrated, it is pervasive throughout his argument.
As I said, if you read the first two paragraphs, you'll understand the relevent aspects and the thrust of Frum's piece.
No you won't. Not until, at minimum, paragraph four does it become clear. The first two paragraphs simply make anonymous characterizations about certain conservatives. He does not specify who they are until paragraph four, and after that he devotes the entire article to smearing them.
You've decided to turn this into something it is not.
To the contrary. You seem to prefer that giving attention to only those first two paragraphs and ignoring the much more underhanded content of the rest of it.
I can't dig up something that doesn't exist, and you can't come up with any good links That's the proof.
This oughta start you off http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a2993855096.htm
Almost 3 years ago and you posted only ten posts to it. Not exactly on a par with any of the Civil War threads you post on. LOL
By the way, I don't think that the posters here appreciate bringing your flame war to this thread.
However there's a converse to that as well. The people need to be educated to what role the government is supposed to hold in a Constitutional Republic, especially under our Constitution, and the part that the morality that so long ago left us holds as well. That means allowing the respective states to have morality clauses, as they did at the time of the signing of the Constitution. Considering that people like Frumfrum are going to call those actions racist, hateful, and every name under the sun, I really don't see which way there is.
The government will gain more power and the Republican party (the old Democrat/Anti-Federalist party) will continue to move further left until one can't tell a difference between the two parties. A third or fourth party is going to have to come to the forefront. While I don't necessarily agree with all the aspects of the Libertarian party, I consider myself more of a Constitutionalist (and the spirit under which it was written) moreso than anything
Again, Frum lays out factual information that can not be denied. One quick example, to specifically offset an allegation you made. It is well known, that Joe Sobran, Pat Buchanan and Bob Novak are not pro-Israel, don't support Israel and have never been defenders of the Israeli people. I don't consider Novak to be an anti Semite, but Buchanan brushes up against anti-Semitism now and then, and Joe Sobran is an anti-Semite, IMO. Frum's entitled to his opinion. As for labeling people with individualized set of political standards, big deal. We all do it. The fact Frum lumps these conservatives together, labeling them "antiwar conservatives", should come as no surprise to anyone. All of the parties mentioned have that fact in common. They're all against the war with Iraq! LOL
Look, I'm no fan of David Frum, but you obviosuly don't like the man. Okay fine.
Have it your way.
I've already demonstrated the pervasiveness of Frum's use of that tactic in the article, to which you have not responded. How can you deny its presence?
I believe truth dominates the piece
Insofar as he correctly pings American Renaissancer fringe types as anti-semites, the piece is truthful. But Frum takes liberties well beyond that, and among them is his lumping of mainstream conservatives such as Novak in with the American Rennaissancer fringe and tarring them all at once with the label of anti-semitism. That is an intellectually dishonest tactic and his use of it overshadows the presence of smaller items of truth in the piece.
and as with Bob Novak, that truth seems to have you very upset.
Rather than responding to arguments, you are appealing to motives that you know not when you make suggestions such as that.
Needless to say, no effort on your part will convince me otherwise.
At least you are honest about your mind having been made up.
You take certain well known truths, twist them using a form of convoluted reasoning
If that is the case, they surely you can demonstrate how it is so, as the last time I checked, you have yet to respond to my detailed outlining of Frum's tactic.
--- in this case, an over dramatized version of guilt by association
Calling it overdramatized does not make it so. I have stated and will continue to state that guilt-by-association is the central argument of Frum's piece. I have also made my case as to why I believe this is so by quoting Frum's piece extensively and demonstrating where it occurs. To date, you have not responded to that demonstration in any substantial way. Therefore you have no basis on which to characterize it as overdramatized.
Guilt by association isn't driving this article.
If that is so, the tactic would not be present in Frum's writings. I believe that it is present and have, to the best of my ability, backed my belief with extensive quotations to demonstrate that it is not only present but pervasive in the piece. Thus far you have not responded to it in any substantial way.
Again, Frum lays out factual information that can not be denied.
With regards to some of the people mentioned in that article, that is certainly so. What facts he does lay out are quickly overshadowed though by his extensive and pervasive use of a dishonest guilt-by-association smear tactic.
One quick example, to specifically offset an allegation you made. It is well known, that Joe Sobran, Pat Buchanan and Bob Novak are not pro-Israel, don't support Israel and have never been defenders of the Israeli people.
Indeed it is. And while I disagree with those three on that issue, I cannot dispute their right to hold beliefs other than mine as to how we should conduct our foreign policy with Israel. The same cannot be said of Frum, who, as his article evidences, cannot bring himself to tolerate an opinion other than his own on Israel without throwing out the leftist race card of anti-semitism and attempting to implicate respectable people in it by fabricating a link between them, the American Renaissancer fringe nuts, and an anonymous neo-nazi emailer.
I don't consider Novak to be an anti Semite, but Buchanan brushes up against anti-Semitism now and then, and Joe Sobran is an anti-Semite, IMO.
You are entitled to that opinion and, if you can support it, state it to your hearts content. That does not, however, give you a right to fabricate ties between Novak and known and blatant anti-semites from a fringe nutcase organization. That is exactly what Frum did when he lumped Novak and others in with the American Renaissancer crowd and attacked them all as one in the same.
Frum's entitled to his opinion.
Yes he is, but, as I just noted, he is not entitled to make gratuitous attacks and intellectually fraudulent smears on other individuals without expecting to be rightly smacked in return.
As for labeling people with individualized set of political standards, big deal. We all do it. The fact Frum lumps these conservatives together, labeling them "antiwar conservatives", should come as no surprise to anyone. All of the parties mentioned have that fact in common.
You are arguing against a straw man. Frum noted them to be anti-war conservatives, but the label he attached to them was "paleoconservative" or "paleo." He then proceded to make a seconf association of that label of "paleo" with anti-semitism, thus permitting him to smear the persons he named as anti-semitic.
Look, I'm no fan of David Frum, but you obviosuly don't like the man.
You are correct at that. And I say that even though Frum's politics on Israel and the mohammedan world are likely fairly close to my own. I find Frum's writings to be adolescent, self-absorbed, and in this case offensively dishonest. David Keene and other conservatives who probably agree with both myself and Frum on the war and Israel have reached the same conclusion about his writings. That in itself speaks volumes. When people who agree with Frum on a certain issue nevertheless express disgust with his treatment of people who disagree with us on that same issue, it suggests that there's a problem with the way he handles himself.
Since you didn't get the point in my last reply, I'll try again. You haven't demonstrated, nor have you convinced me, that David Frum was using guilt by association to wrongly attack this group of antiwar conservatives. You've offered no significant facts to support your contentions. Frum made a solid effort and gave extensive factual accounts to show that these men have very similar political ideologies.
I've followed Pat Buchanan and Bob Novak for over thirty years. Always thought they both presented the conservative side in a fair manner. However, Novak's public demeaner has changed drastically over the last several years and Buchanan made a first class fool of himself by leaving the GOP. Neither man's public behavior has served him well of late.
>>> ... surely you can demonstrate how it is so, as the last time I checked, you have yet to respond to my detailed outlining of Frum's tactic.
I can't demonstrate something that never existed. Frum employed no "tactic", as you say, he simply wrote a solid political essay. You want me to say, you're right and Frum is wrong. That ain't gonna happen. It would be a lie and I'm not into fabricating untruths to please anyone.
As I've already said, these men have much in common on a political level. Guilt by association remains a weak argument on your part. There has been no "smear tactic", "gratuitous attacks", and "intellectually fraudulent smears" by Frum on anyone. You just don't get it. Frum spoke the truth. Again, if Frum wants to use the label "paleo" to get his point across there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. By all accounts, Bob Novak, Pat Buchanan and Joe Sobran are all paleo conservatives.
You don't hide your dislike for David Frum and the closing paragraph of your last reply, says it all. The man has a talent with words and in this specific piece, Frum speaks the truth. I've got to say it again. Sometimes the truth hurts. This is a perfect case of the truth upsetting both you and Novak. It doesn't help your case by denying that obvious fact.
Btw, you never laid a glove on Frum. If it makes you happy, keep trying.
Seeing as you have refused to address my breakdown of Frum's essay, I do not see how you can legitimately make that claim.
Since you didn't get the point in my last reply, I'll try again. You haven't demonstrated, nor have you convinced me, that David Frum was using guilt by association to wrongly attack this group of antiwar conservatives.
And since you evidently did not read my previous post, I'll note that I did indeed demonstrate in an extensively quoted breakdown of the article that Frum was using guilt-by-association in post #27. You have yet to address or even acknowledge that post's contents. As for not convincing you, I do not see how you can legitimately cite me for that considering that you yourself stated in post #47 "Needless to say, no effort on your part will convince me otherwise."
You've offered no significant facts to support your contentions.
That is simply not so. I quoted Frum's article extensively to demonstrate my point back in #27. You are free to continue ignoring that post, but lying about it not being there will not make it go away.
As I've already said, these men have much in common on a political level. Guilt by association remains a weak argument on your part. There has been no "smear tactic", "gratuitous attacks", and "intellectually fraudulent smears" by Frum on anyone. You just don't get it. Frum spoke the truth.
You may shout all that in repetition to your heart's content, but it no more makes it correct than flapping your arms will make you fly. The fact is, Frum DID use guilt by association as the central feature of his essay. It is pervasive throughout the essay, as I demonstrated by quoting him back in post #27. It is also a matter of fact that, by using guilt by associations at the heart of his essay, Frum engaged in an intellectually dishonest and argumentatively weak form of attack.
Again, if Frum wants to use the label "paleo" to get his point across there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
There is when he uses it to describe people who are not "paleos," or when he uses it to paint people with racism based on the anti-semitic quotes of a few fringer extremists. Frum did both of those things and you could see it quoted in post #27 if you were honest enough to open your eyes for a moment.
By all accounts, Bob Novak, Pat Buchanan and Joe Sobran are all paleo conservatives.
I'm sure that would come as news to Bob Novak! It would probably come as news as well to several from the Lew Rockwell crowd who were also labelled "paleos" even though they are, by their own admission, libertarians.
You don't hide your dislike for David Frum
You are correct about that! I find him to be an intellectually weak and self-absorbed writer. This latest charade only demonstrates it further.
The man has a talent with words
He's penned a single soundbyte that any one of us could have dreamed up. It worked as a soundbyte and was a good soundbyte at that. But it was still a soundbyte and his contribution to writing it no more makes him a Shakespeare than this thread makes you or me a Chaucer.
Frum speaks the truth. I've got to say it again.
Since convincing yourself of his truthfulness in the face of all factual evidence seems to be your game, I suppose you do have to keep telling yourself that.
Btw, you never laid a glove on Frum.
You keep telling yourself that. In the meantime, the arguments you refuse to even read indicate beyond dispute that Frum's smear piece is an intellectually fraudulent waste of paper. You are perfectly free to live in a deluded reality where up is down and black is white, and for all I care you can preserve that reality for yourself by reaffirming its "existence" by repetition of statements such as that. But back here in the real world, Frum has been torn apart by honest conservatives of all types and will continue to be torn apart by honest conservatives of all types. He will continue to be torn apart because his arguments ingulge in fraud.
Your tit for tat debating style is over the top and boring. And your ignorance of American politcs is asounding.
Carry on.
"Needless to say, no effort on your part will convince me otherwise."
Until then, STFU!
No you won't. You've already stated that you are impervious to any ammount of fact that shows you or Frum to be in the wrong:
"Needless to say, no effort on your part will convince me otherwise."
Intellectually dishonest + unchecked emotions = liberal
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