The FReeper Foxhole Remembers The Battle for Tarawa (11/20-23/1943) Jul. 8th, 2004

history.acusd.edu ^ | Professor Dirk A. Ballendorf

[SAMWolf]

Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.

...................................................................................... ...........................................

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THE BATTLE FOR TARAWA
A Validation of the U.S. Marines

THE ROAD TO TARAWA



At the Quebec conference in August of 1943, the Allied high command announced it's intention to launch an offensive in the Central Pacific, in the drive towards Japan. A prime objective of this drive, to be undertaken as a Navy-Marines operation, was to take the Marshall Islands. The Marshall Islands would serve as an air base from which further operations could be launched against the Marianas, and from there against the Japanese home islands. But 500 miles to the southeast of the Marshalls, an archipelago of atolls called the Gilberts stood between U.S. forward ground air bases and the Marshalls. The Gilberts had only one workable airstrip for refueling American aircraft and that was on the island of Betio in the western Gilbert Island atoll of Tarawa.



The Japanese commander in charge of the defense of Tarawa, Rear Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, said "A million men cannot take Tarawa in a hundred years." He commanded 2,600 imperial marines, the best amphibious troops in the Japanese armed forces. With the importation of 1,000 Japanese workers and 1,200 Korean laborers the island airstrip of Betio had been transformed into one of the most formidable fortresses in the world, boasting 14 coastal defense guns(four of which were taken from the surrendered British garrison at Singapore), 40 strategically located artillery pieces, covering every approach to the island, a coconut-log sea wall four feet high lining the lagoon and over 100 machine gun emplacements behind the wall. All this was concentrated on an island only a mile long and a few hundred yards wide. Meanwhile an armada of 17 carriers, 12 battleships, eight heavy and four light cruisers, 66 destroyers and 36 transports carrying the 2nd Marine Division and a part of the 37th Infantry Division- some 35,000 soldiers and Marines headed for Betio in early November of 1943. In the moments before pre-invasion bombardment began, the task force naval commander, Rear Admiral Howard F. Kingman announced to the landing troops "Gentlemen, we will not neutralize Betio. We will not destroy it. We will obliterate it!" Neither Shibasaki nor Kingman knew what they were up against.



NOVEMBER 20: D-DAY

On November 20th at 2:15 A.M. the marine transports went to General Quarters. Last minute landing preparations were made and the marines received their last rites. At 5:05 A.M. the first battleship let loose a salvo on Betio's coastal batteries, followed shortly thereafter by the other battleships and destroyers in the task force. The shelling stopped only for enough time to let the dive bombers from the escort carriers pound the island. The first wave of amphtracks and Higgins boats moved in on the lagoon side of Betio. The formation was jolted to a stop 500 yards out by a reef which the amphtracks could climb over only with great difficulty. Simultaneously, a hail of fire opened up from the island, incinerating the lodged and incoming boats as well as mowing down the marines wading ashore. Few of the first wave survived. But a few got through, and with the help of four successive waves the marines established a beachhead up to a four foot sea wall.

By nightfall, the marines were pinned down on a stretch of beach 100 yards long and 20 feet inland. And rather than being obliterated, the Japanese marines had barely been scratched by the naval and air bombardment. While a brief respite between bombardment and the landings had occurred, the Japanese rushed to their gun posts and had delivered devastating fire. But because their communication lines had been cut, none of them knew what was going on. Therefore, according tot the Bushido Code, each isolated soldier or group of soldiers was obliged to either fight to the death or commit suicide unless ordered otherwise. Consequently, Japanese resistance was fanatical. Some Japanese swam out to disabled amphtracks that night and poured fire onto the marines from the rear- silenced only at great cost to the marines. And a lone Japanese seaplane-turned-bomber easily inflicted casualties on the concentrated beachhead. In all, the first day on Betio had been very costly for the 2nd Division- amphtracks and Higgins boats littered the lagoon, wounded marines everywhere, and dead bodies and parts of bodies everywhere: out of 5,000 men, 1,500 were dead or wounded.



NOVEMBER 21: THE SECOND DAY

At the beginning of the second day, three marine battalions held a small foothold on Betio's lagoon beach. They were ordered to attack at 6:00 A.M. while the 2nd Division reserves, the 1st and 3rd battalions of the Eighth Marines were brought up to the reef. As the Japanese defenders opened up on the wading-in marines, Colonel Shoup of Major Crowe's battalion at the far east side of the lagoon ordered a desperate attack to halt the slaughter of incoming marines. Only 450 of the 800 incoming men made it to the beach. But with this fresh reserve, the central battalion punched its way inland, across the airstrip, and seized a part of the island's sough shore. Meanwhile a high tide flooded the lagoon, allowing reinforcement boats to pass over the reef and come directly up to shore. The arrival of tanks in support of all three battalions on the beachheads proved critical that day. The tanks rolled up to the front lines, taking out Japanese pill boxes and other fortifications at close range.



By dusk, the 6th Marines, after having secured the nearby island of Makin, paddled over the reef in rubber boats and landed on the western beach. There, they met up with Major Ryan's ravaged western lagoon assault battalion. Reinforced, and having gained ground, the second day came to an end. Marine Colonel Shoup radioed the daily situation report back to the command ships: "Casualties: many. Percentage dead: unknown. Combat efficiency: we are winning." Meanwhile, Admiral Shibasaki was sending his last radio message to Tokyo: "Our weapons have been destroyed. From now on everyone is attempting a final charge. May Japan exist for ten thousand years!"



NOVEMBER 22: THE THIRD DAY

On the third day, all three battalions moved inland, with the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines sweeping up the southern shore of Betio. With infantry and flame thrower support, tanks blew apart the remaining fortifications in the central and western part of the island. Taking out pill boxes, machine gun nests and snipers took up much of this third day. But by nightfall, the marines held western and central Betio. At twilight, Shibasaki's troops made one final courageous 'Banzai' suicide charge. They rushed the 6th Marines, Company B in almost overpowering numbers. The marines began to break. Lieutenant Thomas phoned Major Jones, saying "We are killing them as fast as they come at us, but we can't hold much longer; we need reinforcements." Jones replied, "We haven't got them to send you; you've got to hold." In the face of heavy losses, the 6th Marines wavered, but didn't break. When dawn appeared, the marines still held their positions.



NOVEMBER 23: THE FINAL ACT

On the morning of November 23rd, the 6th Marines counted 300 Japanese bodies scattered around their positions. As it turned out, this group of Japanese had been the last large contingent on Betio with only small pockets of resistance remaining. And following a painstaking mop up of the eastern side of the island, Japanese resistance, with the exception of a few snipers who would continue to take pot shots at marines for the next several days, came to an end. For at 1:12 P.M., after 76 hours of fighting, Betio was declared 'secure'. Upon arriving at Betio that day, General Holland Smith ordered both the Stars and Stripes and the Union Jack to be raised over Betio(for Betio was to revert to the British as a Pacific trust after the war). The general then toured the island west of the airport. He noted that only seventeen Japanese had surrendered while only 129 Korean laborers had survived out of a total of 4,700 troops and construction workers



THE VALUE OF TARAWA

In the 76-hour fight for Betio, 1,056 marines and sailors were killed, died of wounds or were missing and presumed to be dead. Some 2,300 men were wounded, but recovered. Meanwhile, at home, Americans were appalled by the losses at Tarawa, flooding Admiral Nimitz's mail with angry letters. But Tarawa had taught the navy and the marines some vital lessons in amphibious warfare which in the near future, would save thousands of lives. More amphtracks were to be built with better armor, including side protection for marines. Higgins boats were removed from landing operations. Landing craft were converted into supporting gunboats, able to come in close on the beach. Underwater demolition teams were organized to destroy natural and artificial obstacles before future atoll landing would take place. Precision rocket and naval attacks had proven their worth against the near impregnable fortifications. And the role of the tank in turning the tide of battle proved critical. All these lessons would be applied to future campaigns with great success.



The price for Betio had been relatively high, but within days, Betio was converted into a forward base for the assault on the Marshalls, with bomber and fighter sorties flying out within hours of the marines victory. And within nine weeks of the battle, an invasion task force under Admiral Nimitz left Tarawa to take the Marshall Islands.

[SAMWolf]

Marines who would not have their deeds recorded, or recognized by earning a medal went about the deadly business of survival and winning a battle. Here and there small groups of Marines, most led by brave privates, took tiny patches of ground. The extraordinary requirement to wade across 700 yards of coral reef, totally exposed to withering machine gun fire and accurately registered artillery salvos, was faced be almost every single Marine in the Division. That simple act required braver and fortitude to succeed. PFC. Bill Clear, 8th Marines, recalled the wade in, "Jeez, the fire was heavy as hell as we went in. I was scared to death." Lieutenant Commander Robert A. McPherson, a pilot flying over the atoll, described what he saw, "The water never seemed clear of tiny men, their rifles held over their heads, slowly wading beach wards. I wanted to cry." "Yet this reef was crossed by men wading the reef with the determination, courage and endurance to carry on to the end in order to secure the island of Betio," declared Lt. General Julian Smith. "In the chaos, the life of every Marine depended quite simply on his willingness to risk it." How or why did Marines in small groups or singularly, usually on their own or under the direction of a local leader, and all completely removed from the doctrine of amphibious warfare, move forward? Inside enough men, willing to risk their lives, were qualities not listed in the Tentative Man2walfor Landing Operations.



The qualities can best be identified by men who lead the marines into battle. Colonel T. A. Culhane, Jr., Operations Officer, 2nd Marines identified the intangible qualities, "More important than all the techniques [of amphibious assault], was the high state of training and discipline of the individual Marine, his morale, and his confidence and determination to continue the attack even though those about him became casualties." Lt. Colonel Howard J. Rice, Exec., 2/2 focused in on the morale factor, "Before we hit the beach we knew it would be grim business. But we intended and expected to win, even when we held only a narrow naked beach. But, I must admit this confidence was based on nothing more tangible than a faith, a faith shared by all Marines, that Marines always finished a job assigned." Lt. Colonel William T. Bray, C.O., Company All/2, was even more succinct, "The value of sound training and the spirit of comradeship, which comprises a fundamental pillar of Marine Corps life, still stand foremost in my mind as the primary reason for victory at Tarawa." Joseph Alexander believes that an important factor from training permitted the marines to sustain morale and operations longer than the Japanese in the intense battle. Alexander writes, "The Marines' intensive, preliminary field training and strenuous conditioning prior to combat gave them an edge as the battle entered into the third day." Edwin Hoyt saw the training in a different beneficial light, "here the hard training of the marines showed itself; men, from the remnants of several different companies, adjusted to complete change of command and operating procedure under heavy fire without a whimper, and moved on to fight as though it had all been planned this way." These were officers and leaders viewing from the topside of command down to the ranks. The men in the ranks may have reacted that way from training but self -motivation may have been more personal and human related.



The espirt de corps of the Marines was operating in the inferno of the battle. The esprit de corps was extremely high in the Second Marine Division. But how did that play out on a individual basis? Richard Wheeler, a marine veteran who fought on Iwo, explained, in his book, A Special Valor, how the esprit emerged on Tarawa, "They were all Marines, and they were in this thing together, and they would do the best they could to uphold the Corps' reputation and sustain one another. Few men talked in terms of 'death before dishonor," but the ancient code applied." Robert Sherrod who witnessed it up close and personal described it this way, "It was inconceivable to most Marines that they should let another Marine down, or that they could be responsible for dimming the bright reputation of their corps."



This was demonstrated by the feeling among the Marines who held the tiny strip of beach on the first night. "There was no sense of panic in the lines as the Marines set up for night defenses." No one dared to let the Corps down or to let down the Marine lying next to him. It even extended to unknown Marines. Marines fought and died for other Marines, unknown and even unseen. "In those first desperate hours there had been only one way to get at the Japanese, and that was to get in and kill them, which usually meant getting killed oneself in the process. But enough marines had given their lives to let the beachhead live." Even fifty years later marines recall why they carried on. Norman Moisie, an amtrak driver in Company A, 2nd Amtrac Battalion, wrote on the fiftieth anniversary, "Still, not a day passes without memories of Tarawa, the spirit of the Marine Corps, and of all the good men with whom I served.

[SAMWolf]

Tarawa did turn out to be a "productive proving ground" for the amphibious doctrine. In fact every subsequent move in the drive across the central pacific was to be made with the mistakes of Tarawa in mind. The lessons learned and adjustments made to the doctrine helped take the Marshalls twice as fast with half the casualties. The practical lessons of amphibious warfare [at Tarawa] provided for adjustments and improvements in all six parts of the doctrine. But what must be recognized and remembered about Tarawa was that it was the individual marine, his courage, bravery and training which bought the victory and time for adjustment which sold the doctrine.



The doctrine may have been sound, and the correct method to seize an enemy base, island or hostile shore, but it was in disarray and failing on Tarawa. It took the Marines to catch and save it from failure; Marines who relied on traditional bedrock foundations of the Corps. Edwin Hoyt put it best, "without the heroism of the Marines at Tarawa, the entire course of the Central Pacific might have changed." Tarawa should not stand as the proof of amphibious doctrine, but as the symbol of raw courage and Marine tradition.

Additional Sources:

www.mcu.usmc.mil
www.history.navy.mil
www.ibiblio.org

[SAMWolf]

'The 2nd Marine Division has been especially chosen by the High Command for the assault on Tarawa...what you do there will set a standard for all future operations in the central pacific area.'

Major General Julian C. Smith
Commander of the U.S. 2nd Marine Division - November 1943

'Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning.'

Colonel David M. Shoup, USMC,
Tarawa, 21 November 1943.

'The Marines fought almost solely on esprit decorps, I was certain. It was inconceivable to most Marines that they should let another Marine down, or that they could be responsible for dimming the bright reputation of their Corps.
The Marines simply assumed that they were the world's best fighting men.'

Robert Sherrod,
1943, regarding the battle at Tarawa

[SAMWolf]

Veterans for Constitution Restoration is a non-profit, non-partisan educational and grassroots activist organization. The primary area of concern to all VetsCoR members is that our national and local educational systems fall short in teaching students and all American citizens the history and underlying principles on which our Constitutional republic-based system of self-government was founded. VetsCoR members are also very concerned that the Federal government long ago over-stepped its limited authority as clearly specified in the United States Constitution, as well as the Founding Fathers' supporting letters, essays, and other public documents.

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Iraq Homecoming Tips

~ Thanks to our Veterans still serving, at home and abroad. ~ Freepmail to Ragtime Cowgirl | 2/09/04 | FRiend in the USAF

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PDN members and fans. We hope you will consider this simple act of patriotism worth passing on or taking up as a project in your own back yard. In summary:

Who They Are: Operation: Stitches Of Love was started by the Mothers of two United States Marines stationed in Iraq.

What They Are Doing: We are gathering 12.5"x12.5" quilt squares from across the country and assembling the largest quilt ever produced. When completed we will take the quilt from state to state and gather even more squares.

Why They Are Doing This: We are building this quilt to rally support for the Coalition Forces in Iraq and to show the service members that they are not forgotten. We want the world to know Nothing will ever break the stitches that bind us together as a country.

Ideas to start a local project:

Obtain enough Red, White and Blue material (cloth) for a 12.5 x 12.5 quilt square.
If you have someone in your family that sews, make it a weekend project and invite neighbors to join you.

Consider this tribute as a project for your civic group, scouts, church or townhall group.

Locate an elementary school with an after school program in your neighborhood or locate an after school program in your neighborhood not attached to a school and ask if you could volunteer one or two afternoons and create some squares with the kids.

Invite some VFW posts to share your project in honor of their post.

Send us webmaster@patriotwatch.com for digital photos of in progress and finished project for various websites, OIFII.com and the media.

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UPDATED THROUGH APRIL 2004



The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul

Click on Hagar for
"The FReeper Foxhole Compiled List of Daily Threads"

[snippy_about_it]

FALL IN to the FReeper Foxhole!



Good Thursday Morning Everyone



If you would like to be added to our ping list, let us know.

[snippy_about_it]

Special topic of interest ping. ;-)

[SAMWolf]

USS Tarawa (LHA 1)


The FReeper Foxhole hosts on the bridge of the USS Tarawa, San Diego - 9/04/03


The OA Division of the USS Tarawa thank Snippy for her support for during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[Aeronaut]

Good morning Snippy.

[quietolong]

A good book I read some time back.

Tarawa
Charles T Gregg
1984
ISBN 0-8128-8119-2

An interesting thing from the book:

One of the reasons that is was so costly to take Tarawa. Was an raid a year earlier on Aug 17 1942 With a 2nd in command by the name of Maj. James Roosevelt on Makin Island.

Then President Franklin Roosevelt Was enchanted with the activities of British commandos. And in June 1940 had forced the Marine Corps to set up similar units. The Marinas said every Marine already has this type of training. So no special forces were needed.

For those of you who don't know your history well. This is the Carlson's Raiders. And Maj. Roosevelt is FDR's Son.

This raid drew the attention of the Imperial Headquarters in Japan to the Gilbert Islands.
With the Japanese commanders concluding that this presaged an invasion of the Gilberts.

So they decided to reinforce the area. And build a airfield on Betio Island.
They also scoured the other islands in the area. And captured coast watchers, missionary and some other white men. Tortured and killed them. Destroying the intelligence they provided.

But it could have been more costly. All the defenses on Betio were not fully finished

[GATOR NAVY]

Lesser known losses at Tarawa:

USS LISCOME BAY (CVE-56)
Displacement: 7,800 t.
Length: 512’3”
Beam: 65’
Extreme Width: 108’1”
Draft: 22’6”
Speed: 19 k.
Complement: 860
Armament: 1 5”; 16 40mm
Aircraft: 28
Class: CASABLANCA

LISCOME BAY (CVE-56) was laid down 9 December 1942 by Kaiser Shipbuilding Co., Vancouver, Wash., under a Maritime
Commission contract; launched 19 April 1943; sponsored by
Mrs. Ben Moreell; named LISCOME BAY 28 June 1943; redesignated CVE-56 15 July 1943; acquired by the Navy and commissioned 7 August 1943, Capt. I. D. Wiltsie in command.

After training operations along the west coast, LISCOME
BAY departed San Diego 21 October 1943 and arrived Pearl
Harbor, 1 week later. Having completed additional drills
and operational exercises, the escort carrier set forth upon
what was to be her first and last battle mission. As a unit
of CarDiv 24, she departed Pearl Harbor 10 November attached
to TF 52, Northern Attack Force, under Rear Adm. Richard K.
Turner, bound for the invasion of the Gilbert Islands.

The invasion bombardment announcing America's first
major thrust into the central Pacific began 20 November at
0500, and 76 battle-filled hours later, Tarawa and Makin
Islands were captured. LISCOME BAY’s aircraft played their
part well in the 2,278 action sorties provided by carrier
based planes which neutralized enemy airbases, supported
landings and ground operations in powerful bombing-strafing
missions, and intercepted enemy raids. With the islands
secured, the U.S. forces began a retirement.

On 23 November, the Japanese submarine I-175 arrived
off Makin. The temporary task group built around Rear Adm.
H. M. Mullinnix's three escorts, LISCOME BAY, CORAL SEA
(CVE-57) and CORREGIDOR (CVE-58) commanded by Rear Adm.
Robert M. Griffin in NEW MEXICO (BB-40) was steaming 20
miles southwest of Butaritari Island at 15 knots. At 0430,
24 November, reveille was made in LISCOME BAY. The ship
went to routine general quarters at 0505 as flight crews
prepared their planes for dawn launchings. There was no
warning of a submarine in the area until about 0510 when a
lookout shouted: "...here comes a torpedo!" The missile
struck abaft the after engineroom an instant later with a
shattering roar. A second major detonation closely followed
the first, the entire interior burst into flames. At 0533,
LISCOME BAY listed to starboard and sank, carrying Admiral
Mullinix, Captain Wiltsie, 53 other officers, and 591
enlisted men down with her; 272 of her crew were rescued.

Gallantly her men had served; gallantly they died in the
victorious campaign giving their lives for the Nation's future.

LISCOME BAY received one battle star for World War II
service.

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/carriers/cve56.txt

[E.G.C.]

Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.

Folks, I'm going to be in and out for a few days. My Dad isn't feeling well. He's been having stomach problems the last few days and may have to go to the hospital.

[alfa6]

Amphibious Foxhole Bump for Thursday

SAM, if you get a chance you should read RAH's speech to the members of the Naval Acadamey. It was around 1972 or so and I found it in one of Heinlein compilation (i think that is the word) books. It was either Requiem or Extended Visions.

And for a further bonus points did you know that Heinlein gets credit for the waterbed.

Off to work for twelve hours of fun and frivoliity

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[The Mayor]

July 8, 2004

Inner Strength

Read: Ephesians 3:14-21

[I pray] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man. —Ephesians 3:16

Bible In One Year: Job 36-37; Acts 15:22-41

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A large company uses suction to extract contaminating substances from steel drums. Powerful pumps draw the materials out of the barrels, but the workers must carefully regulate the force of these pumps. If they take out too much air, the drums will collapse like paper cups, because the outer pressure will exceed the inner pressure.

Likewise, when adversity and hardship come into our lives, God must empower us from within or we will be unable to withstand the pressures from without. True, we get solid support from loved ones and Christian friends, but it is our spiritual inner man,“strengthened with might through His Spirit”(Ephesians 3:16), that sustains us and keeps us from crumpling.

The Holy Spirit works to strengthen us and renew our minds as we read the Bible and pray. If we neglect the Scriptures, seldom talk with the Lord, and stop fellowshiping with other believers, we’ll grow weak and vulnerable. Then we will be unable to withstand the pressures of temptation or trouble.

Let’s ask the Lord to develop our inner strength so that when life’s blows and burdens press upon us we will not cave in. —Dave Egner

Help us, O Lord, when troubles come
To trust Your Word and not succumb,
And help us not to turn aside
But in Your strength and love abide. —D. De Haan

The power of Christ within you is greater than the pressure of troubles around you.

[Valin]

On This Day In History


Birthdates which occurred on July 08:
1545 Don Carlos, son of Spanish king Philip II
1574 Giovanni Battista Stefanini, composer
1819 Alexander Hays, Bvt Major General (Union volunteers), died in 1864
1819 Vatroslav Lisinski, composer
1821 William Harvey Lamb Wallace, Brig General (Union volunteers)
1824 Waldimir "Kriz" Krzyzanowski, Brig General (Union volunteers)
1826 Benjamin Henry Grierson, Major General (Union volunteers)
1826 Robert Kingston Scott, Bvt Major General (Union volunteers)
1838 Count Ferdinand Graf von Zeppelin invented rigid dirigibles
1839 John D Rockefeller US capitalist; founded Standard Oil
1893 Fritz Perls father of Gestalt therapy
1898 Alec Waugh London, novelist (Island in the Sun); brother of Evelyn
1907 George W Romney (Gov-R-Mich)/US Secretary of HUD (1969-73)
1908 Louis Jordan Ark, alto saxman (Caldonia)
1908 Nelson A Rockefeller (Gov-R-NY) 41st VP (1974-77)
1914 Billy Eckstine jazz singer (Tenderly, A Fool in Love)
1915 Charles Hard Townes Greenville SC, physicist, developed lasers
1917 Glenn Langan Denver Colo, actor (Amazing Colossal Man, Margie)
1918 Craig Stevens Liberty Mo, actor (Craig-Dallas, Peter Gunn)
1918 Nelson Mandela Transkei South Africa, jailed political activist
1931 Jerry Vale singer (Arriverderci Roma)
1931 Roone Arledge TV executive (ABC)
1933 Marty Feldman London England, comedian (Young Frankenstein)
1935 Steve Lawrence Bkln, singer/actor (Go Away Little Girl, Lonely Guy)
1935 Vitaly I Sevastyanov USSR, cosmonaut (Soyuz 9 Soyuz 18B)
1942 Janice Pennington, Kansas, playmate (May 1971)/model (Price is Right)
1942 Phil Gramm, (Sen-R Texas, 1985- )
1944 Jaimoe "Johnny" Johanson drummer (Allman Brothers)
1948 Kim Darby N Hollywood, actr (True Grit, Enola Gay, Rich Man Poor Man)
1948 Raffi children's singer (Baby Beluga)
1951 Anjelica Huston actress (Prizzi's Honor, Ice Pirates)
1958 Kevin Bacon Phila Pa, actor (Diner, Footloose, Tremors)

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Deaths which occurred on July 08:
0810 Pepin son of Charlemagne, king of Italy, dies (birth date unknown)
0975 Edgar, King of England (959-75), dies
1153 Eugene III, [Bernardo], Italian Pope (1145-53), dies
1249 Alexander II, king of Scotland (1215-49), dies at 51
1538 Diego de Almagro, Spanish conquistador (Chile/Peru), dies at about 63
1623 Gregory XV, [Alessandro Ludovisi], bishop of Bologna/Pope, dies at 69
1695 Christiaen Huygens, inventor/astronomer, dies at 66
1822 Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet (Prometheus unbound), drowns at 29
1859 F J Oscar I, King of Sweden/Norway (1844-59), dies at 60
1943 Jean "Max" Moulin, French resistance fighter, executed
1957 William Cadbury chocolate maker, dies at 89

1959 Dale Buisand & Chester Ovnand 1st Americans killed in Vietnam War

1985 Phil Foster comedian (Frank De Fazio-Laverne & Shirley), dies at 72
1991 James Franciscus actor, dies at 57 of emphysema
1994 Dick Sargent, actor (Darren-Bewitched), dies of cancer at 64
1994 Kim Il Sung, president of North-Korea (1948-94), dies at 82
1997 Charles Drake, geologist, dies of heart attack at 92
1999 Pete Conrad, Astronaut (third man to walk on the moon) motorcycle accident

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Reported: MISSING in ACTION
1965 BRAM RICHARD C.---CLEVES OH.
[SEARCH NEG]
1965 DINGWALL JOHN F.---TROY NY.
[SEARCH NEG]
1966 BROWNING RALPH T.---ORLANDO FL.
[02/12/73 RELEASED BY DRV/LISTED KIA, ALIVE IN 98]
1966 LONGANECKER RONALD LEE---PORTLAND OR.
1969 ANDRE HOWARD V. JR.---MEMPHIS TN.
1969 SIZEMORE JAMES E.---SAN DIEGO CA.

POW / MIA Data & Bios supplied by
the P.O.W. NETWORK. Skidmore, MO. USA.

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On this day...
0951 Paris is founded
1497 Vasco da Gama departs for trip to India
1654 1st Jewish colonist arrive in US (Jacob Barsimson in Manhattan)
1663 King Charles II of England granted a charter to Rhode Island
1693 NYC authorizes 1st police uniforms in American colonies
1709 Battle of Poltava; Russians defeat Swedes
1758 English and Colonial assault on France at Ticonderoga, NY

1776 Col John Nixon gave 1st public reading of Dec of Independence

1777 Vt becomes 1st state abolishing slavery, adopts male sufferage
1796 US State Dept issues 1st American passport
1797 1st US senator (William Blount of Tennessee) expelled by impeachment
1816 Frost in Waltham, MA
1835 Liberty Bell cracks (again)
1853 Commodore Matthew Perry sails his frigate Susquehanna into Tokyo Bay
1861 CS Gen Sibley is given command of rebel troops in NM territory
1862 Odore R Timby patents revolving gun turret
1870 Congress authorizes registration of trademarks
1870 Gov Holden of NC declares Casswell County in a state of insurrection
1876 White terrorists attack Black Republicans in Hamburg SC, killing 5
1889 John L Sullivan wins by KO in 75 rounds in last bare-knuckle bout
1889 Wall Street Journal begins publishing
1891 61ø F, the highest temp for July 1891, in Baltimore & Phila

1896 William Jennings Bryan "cross of gold" speech at Dem convention

1900 1st night baseball, league game (Zanesville at Grand Rapids)
1905 Part of Angel Island allocated for Immigration Detention Center
1907 Florenz Ziegfeld staged 1st `Follies' on NY Theater roof
1912 Pitcher Rube Marquard loses after winning 19 straight games
1919 Pres Wilson returns to NYC from Versailles Peace Conference
1923 Harding becomes 1st sitting president to visit Alaska (Metlakahtla)
1932 Depression low point of Dow Jones Industrial Average, 41.22
1932 G Neujmin discovers asteroid #1255 Schilowa
1933 Public Works Administration becomes effective
1943 4th day of battle at Kursk: Gen Model uses last tank reserve
1947 Demolition begins in NYC for UN HQ in NYC
1948 500th anniversary Russian orthodox church celebrated in Moscow
1950 Gen Douglas MacArthur named commander-in-chief, UN forces in Korea

1950 Leroy Deans awarded 1st Order of Purple Heart in Korea

1957 CDC incorporates
1957 Irish premier Eamon de Valera arrests Sinn-Fein leaders
1961 Portuguese steamer "Save" breaks up off Mozambique, 227 die
1963 US bans all monetary transactions with Cuba
1967 Billie Jean King concludes Wimbeldon sweep (singles, doubles & mix)
1969 Thor Heyerdahl & reed raft Ra II land in Barbados 57 days from Morocco
1969 US troop withdrawal begins in Vietnam
1975 Pres Ford announced he'll seek Republican nomination for pres
1975 Quake damages over 2,000 temples in Pagan, Burma. 20-foot-high seated Buddha of Thandawgya decapitated
1977 Sabra Starr finishes longest recorded belly dance (100 hrs)
1979 Voyager 2 takes 1st ever photo of Jupiter's satellite Adrastea (J14)
1981 Senate confirms Sandra Day O'Conner to Supreme Court (99-0)
1982 Billy Martin records his 1,000th career win as a manager
1982 Porn star John Homes convicted of receiving stolen property
1984 John McEnroe beats Jimmy Connors for Wimbeldon singles
1986 Farthest thrown object-an "Aerobie" flying ring, 383 m (1,257')
1986 NASA establishes Safety, Reliability Maintain & Quality Assurance
1987 Kitty Dukakis, revealed addiction to amphetamines for 26 years
1988 Stevie Wonder announces he will run for mayor of Detroit in 1992

1990 12:34:56 on 7/8/90 (1234567890)

1997 NATO invites Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic to join

---

Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

US : Liberty Bell Day [1835]
South Africa : Family Day (Monday)
Swaziland : Reed Dance Day (Monday)
Be Nice to New Jersey Week (Day 5)
Nude Recreation Week (Day 4)
National Canned Luncheon Meat Week (Day 5)
Baked Beans Month

---

Religious Observances
Old Catholic : Feast of St Elizabeth (St Isabella) of Portugal, widow
Feast of St. Grimbald.
Feast of St. Kilian.

---

Religious History
1663 Following restoration of the English monarchy, a new charter was issued to theAmerican colony of Rhode Island. It guaranteed religious freedom regardless of 'differencesin opinion in matters of religion.'
1741 Influencing the start of New England's 'Great Awakening,' colonial Americantheologian Jonathan Edwards preached his classic sermon, 'Sinners in the Hands of an AngryGod,' at Enfield, CT.
1792 Birth of Lowell Mason, Presbyterian pioneer of congregational singing. He composedover 1,000 hymn tunes, including BETHANY ('Nearer, My God, To Thee'), DENNIS ('Blest Be theTie That Binds'), and HAMBURG ('When I Survey the Wondrous Cross').
1948 The Moscow Conference convened to celebrate the 500th anniversary of theindependence of the Russian Orthodox Church from control of the Eastern OrthodoxPatriarchate of Constantinople.
1959 Meeting in Oberlin, OH, the Congregational Christian and the Evangelical andReformed churches adopted a united statement of faith. (The two groups merged to form theUnited Church of Christ in 1961.)

Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.

---

Thought for the day :
"Books - the best antidote against the marsh-gas of boredom and vacuity."

---

Things To Do If You Ever Became An Evil Overlord...
If an enemy you have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring anywhere, FIND THEM AND KILL THEM IMMEDIATELY instead of waiting for them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards you in your old age

---

The World's Shortest Books...
Amelia Earharts guide to the pacific ocean

---

Dumb Laws...
Baltimore Maryland:
It's illegal to take a lion to the movies.

---

Top Ten Things That sound Dirty In Golf..But Aren't...
5. Mind if I join your threesome?

[Soaring Feather]

Good morning everyone.

[Professional Engineer]

Good morning ladies. Flag-o-gram.

[CholeraJoe]

did you know that Heinlein gets credit for the waterbed.

And many other things including the "Heads-Up" display currently found in most modern military aircraft.*

* Described in detail in 1959's "Starship Troopers."

[Darksheare]

How morale and training can alter a faltering offensive.

[SAMWolf]

Morning Aeronaut.

[SAMWolf]

Thanks for the book recommendation, quietolong.

Tarawa was a costly learning experience for the Marines and the Navy.

[SAMWolf]

Thanks for the info on the USS LISCOME BAY, Gator Navy. I don't recall ever reading about losing a CVE at Tarawa, most books I've read concentrate on the landings and battle for the Island. I learned somerthing today. :-)

[SAMWolf]

Morning E.G.C. I'll keep your dad in my prayers, wish him well from us.

[SAMWolf]

Morning alfa6.

I'll see if I canb find that speech.

Heinlein gets credit for the waterbed.

I didn't know that. He get the patent on it, or just come up with the idea?

[SAMWolf]

Morning Mayor.

[SAMWolf]

1933 Marty Feldman London England, comedian (Young Frankenstein)

What hump?

[SAMWolf]

Morning Feather. Make it through the night without rain?

[SAMWolf]

Morning PE. Great Flag-O-Gram.

The Blue Angels are gonna be in Portland next month. Maybe Snippy and I can make the air show.

[SAMWolf]

The Pragmatics of Patriotism

I found a exerpt of Heinlein's speech

What you do have here is a tradition of service. Your most important classroom is Memorial Hall. Your most important lesson is the way you feel inside when you walk up those steps and see that shot-torn flag framed in the arch of the door: "Don't Give Up The Ship."

If you feel nothing, you don't belong here. But if it gives you goose flesh, just to see that old battle flag, then you are going to find that feeling increasing every time you return here over the years......until it reaches a crescendo the day you return and read the list of your own honored dead --- classmates, shipmates, friends --- read them with grief and pride while you try to keep your tears silent.

The time has come for me to stop. I said that "Patriotism" is a way of saying "Women and Children First." And that no one can force a man to feel this way. Instead he must embrace it freely, I want to tell about one such man. He wore no uniform and no one knows his name, or where he came from; all we know is what he did.

[SAMWolf]

Morning CholeraJoe.

Amazing how many things in Sci-Fi novels and novellas are now Science fact.

[SAMWolf]

Morning Darksheare. They don't come much better than the U.S. Marines.

[stand watie]

GM, snippy!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

FYI, my uncle, PO3 Wayne Thomas Bankhead, was at Tarawa, aboard the USS Champion (acting Chief, battle damage repair).

he said, "it was a H of a fight! NONE worse."P>free dixie,sw

[Colonel_Flagg]

Good morning, Foxhole!

Great thread today, on a truly gripping story of valor and sacrifice.

[Darksheare]

No, they don't come much better.

[Soaring Feather]

Hiya Sam, no it rained in the night. I was just about ready to drop off into dream land when I heard it hitting the steps. :(

[colorado tanker]

Baked Beans Month

For some reason I'm thinking of Blazing Saddles.

[SAMWolf]

Morning stand watie.

We thank your uncle, PO3 Wayne Thomas Bankhead, for his service.

[SAMWolf]

Good Morning Colonel_Flagg.

"Sands of Iwo Jima" does a pretty good job of covering the Tarawa landings.

[SAMWolf]

Morning CT.

A classic, too bad some TV stations replaced the sounds with belching. :-(

[colorado tanker]

Looks like you folks had a lot of fun checking out the Tarawa. I can just imagine the feeling sailing with a carrier task force with a Marine Expeditionary Unit you'd feel like there's no other dog in the junkyard that could possibly harm you.

The 3rd ACR and 43 Support Group at Ft. Carson were just alerted they're going back to Iraq in a few months. Doesn't seem that long ago that they returned.

[stand watie]

my uncle passed away 3 years ago from cancer.

nonetheless, THANKS on his behalf. his SON will be PLEASED that he is remembered!

free dixie,sw

[bkwells]

Great thread today you two!

Thanks for the ping snippy!

[colorado tanker]

some TV stations replaced the sounds with belching

LOL! I didn't know that. Boy did they get that wrong. The belching should come in after quaffing a few brewskies at the saloon.

"Mexican Bandit: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges,"

[Professional Engineer]

The FReeper Foxhole hosts on the bridge of the USS Tarawa, San Diego - 9/04/03

Mighty good looking folks there.

[Professional Engineer]

1969 Thor Heyerdahl & reed raft Ra II land in Barbados 57 days from Morocco

After almost two months afloat, and with a hurricane approaching, the Ra was abandoned at sea frustratingly short close to its goal, still floating but nearly uninhabitable. The reed ship RA I. Heyerdahl, however, was not discouraged. A year later, with valuable lessons learned, an improved design, and with the assistance of reed boat builders from South America, Ra II sailed forth from Safi and this time successfully crossed the Atlantic in 57 days.After its voyage, the ship remained seaworthy and intact without a single reed being lost.

More here

[Professional Engineer]

He get the patent on it, or just come up with the idea?

He came up with the idea in Stranger From a Strange Land. Another gentleman actually made and patented the waterbed. He sent one of the first ones to RAH in thanks.

[Valin]

The Battle for Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll

A Japanese Perspective:

Operations in the Gilbert Islands
by the 4th Fleet and the 6th Base Force

By Stanley C. Jersey
http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/stanjersy1.htm

With the onset of the War in the Pacific, islands that flanked the Japanese South Seas possessions were of great interest to the Imperial General Headquarters (IGHQ) with the Imperial Navy section in the lead. They wanted to secure key locations in order to protect the lateral edge of the Japanese outer-islands. Their main interest was in the Gilbert Ellice Islands, a British Protectorate. Of the northern Gilbert Islands (Code RA) Tarawa (RYB) and Apamama (RHG) were the most appropriate for air facilities.

Fleet Admiral Yamamoto, Commander in Chief of the Combined Fleet, issued Combined Fleet Top Secret Operational Order No. 1 ("Nachi" Document,) on 5 November 1941; it directed the South Seas Force to capture Guam and Wake Islands at the outset of hostilities and to continue the assault on RA. This same order also called for the neutralization of hostile air forces on RJH (Howland Island).

Vice Admiral Shigayoshi Inouye, Commander in Chief of the 4th Fleet, and concurrently Commander of the South Seas Force, prepared to launch operations against Howland Island and the northern Gilberts and the policy was to begin with the assault on the Howland area in an surprise attack, primarily with aircraft and submarines, its objective being to destroy the enemy air forces in the area. Simultaneously, the attacking force was to destroy enemy military installations and to prevent further use of the base in this area. Other units were instructed to carry out mopping-up operations against strategic points in the Gilbert Islands and, at the same time, occupy some of the key points in order to construct air bases to expand the Japanese sphere of air control.

Just before the outbreak of the war, on 16 November 1941, one land-based attack plane of the 24th Air Flotilla secretly reconnoiter the Gilbert Islands by command of Vice Admiral Inouye. The reconnaissance assured the commander that the situation in this area remained unchanged. On the 21st, the disposition order was activated and the South Seas Force repared itself for the operations. With the commencement of hostilities at 0630-hours on 7 December 1941, the air unit began its attacks while other units went into action according to the plan.



(snip)


United States Forces Invasion of the Gilbert and Ellice Islands:
War in the Central Pacific

On 2 October 1942, a Marine and Naval Task Force from Samoa landed on Funafuti, Ellice Islands. It consisting of the Marine Corps 26th and 27th Provisional Companies X and Y, the 4th Detachment, 2d Naval Construction Battalion and Naval Administrative Group No. 3 plus the Advance Marine Base Depot formed the post. A few days later Motor Torpedo Squadron 3 (2) began operating from the island as well as a detachment of VOS float planes from VS-1-D14. The island was reinforced with the arrival of the 5th Marine Defense Battalion less detachments “A”and“B.” The Japanese were unaware that the Americans were positioned on their southern flank until sighted by a passing flying boat in March 1943. By that time United States forces were fully entrenched in the Ellice Islands.

The United States occupied Baker Island on 10 September 1943 with an engineer element of the VII Air Force. To further the penetration in the Central Pacific they immediately established air bases and stationed land and air force components under the 11th Bombardment Group, VII Air Force bases at Nanomea, in the Ellice Islands the 7th Marine Defense Battalion, Nukufetau 2d Airdrome Battalion Marine. Then they proceeded with air strikes against Makin, Tarawa, Nauru and Ocean Islands.

On 1 September a carrier strike force USS Yorktown CV 10, USS Essex CV 9 and USS Independence CV 22 attacked Japanese held Marcus Island. On the 19th another task force built around the USS Lexington CV 16, USS Princeton CVL 23 and the USS Belleau Woods CLV 24 attacked Tarawa and Nauru.

The Combined Fleet, in accordance with a pre-arranged plan of operations, had been seeking an opportunity to contact the enemy fleet that it had expected would appear in the Central Pacific sector. In mid-September, the Combined Fleet calculated that there was a strong possibility that the United States carrier striking force would attack the Gilbert and Marshall Islands area. Therefore, it dispatched its carrier force to the latter area to await the expected enemy. On the 18th, the Combined Fleet issued orders on interception and security dispositions and assembled the air units assigned to the flotilla commanded by Rear Admiral Shunichi Kira. The next day, a United States carrier strike force raided the cordon of Japanese bases on Makin, Apamama, Nauru and Tarawa. For some reason the Japanese air units from the Marshall Islands failed to make contact.

On 6 October, another carrier task force attacked Wake Island and subjected the island to an air raid and naval bombardment. The play for Wake was to confuse the Japanese into assuming that the island was to be invaded. However, in the grand scheme of the Allied Central Pacific drive Wake Island was strategically unimportant. On the 7th, the Commander in Chief of the Combined Fleet Admiral Mineichi Koga issued an alert order designating 11 October as X day under measure 1 of the “HEI” Operation, with orders for the following dispositions to intercept the enemy: One land-attack plane unit, about 18 aircraft, of the Southeast Area Force, Rabaul based, will be placed under the command of the Inner South Sea Force and all operational land-based attack planes of the Northeast Area Force will advance to Marcus Island.

The 7th Cruiser Division and the 10th and 17th Destroyer Divisions, assigned to the Inner South Sea Force at Truk, and currently under the operational command of the Southeast Area Force, will return to their original command.

In accordance with an established plan, the Commander of Inner South Seas Area Force issued numerous orders for the defense of the Gilbert and Marshall Islands as well as Nauru and Ocean. With regard to the air operations, new air tactics were perfected. The Japanese felt that these tactics would be so effective that their confidence in being able to cope with the enemy increased. The essentials of the air tactics were as follows:

Patrol of operational waters was, to be the responsibility of the 22d Air Flotilla and the attack on the invading enemy was to be made by 36 land-attack planes detached from the Southeast Area Force, and land attack planes and fighters of the 22d Air Flotilla.
Until the enemy attacked, the strength of the 22d Air Flotilla was to be dispersed as far as possible, while the strength maintained at advance air bases would be limited to the strength needed for patrolling.
As soon as the enemy's intention to attack became known, the air components were to concentrate on developing their striking power to the fullest.
Until the enemy attacked, vigilant air patrols were to be maintained and the remaining air units were to train diligently to increase their combat efficiency.
The Japanese Air Force attacked the enemy bases at Funafuti and Nanumea in the Ellice Islands on 11 and 13 November and the enemy struck back, subjecting Tarawa daily to bombing raids from heavy land-based planes from the l4th through the 17th. The next morning, the VII Air Force bombers dropped 115 tons of bombs on Betio.

During this time the Japanese arrived at an estimate of the approximate size of the enemy air bases on the Ellice Islands as well as their aggressive intention toward the Gilbert and Marshall Islands. Meanwhile, Admiral Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief. US Pacific Fleet, broadcast, to the effect, that the US Force would shortly begin a campaign to capture the Gilbert and Marshall Islands. Against this boast, the Japanese enforced diligent patrols employment of submarines and inactivated the KO Submarine Group. It then assigned the I-19 to observe the Hawaii area, the I-35 to observe the Espiritu Santo New Hebrides Islands area by way of Canton and Funafuti, and ordered the I-169 and 1-175 to return to the base at Truk. The RO-37 was ordered to watch the area around the Gilbert Islands.

(snip)
Admiral Koga, in the meantime, ordered the operational air force of the northeast Pacific Area Force and the land attack plane units of the Southwest Area Force to rush to the Truk area, simultaneously posting the Submarine Force at pre-arranged intercepting positions. During the night of 20 November, Admiral Koga gave orders to all the troops under his tactical command to prepare for "HEI" Operations No. 3.

1. The enemy situation was made clear. The land attack plane units of the Northeast Area Fleet, which had advanced to Truk, and all available air and submarine forces in the Marshall Islands would attack and ‘whittle down’ the enemy fleet.

2. Air units of the carrier divisions would advance to the Marshalls area and take part in the above assault.

3. The main force and the advance force would leave Turk to participate in the decisive battle at the proper time.

4. An element of the surface force would transport Army KO Detachment (2300 soldiers from the 52d Infantry Division) located at Ponape to the Marshall Islands and when the opportunity arrived would make a forced landing at points in the Gilbert’s area where the Americans landed, and destroy their ground force. The detachment was built around the Col. Manjiro Yamanaka IJA, the Commander of the 107th Infantry Regiment (52d Infantry Division) supported by elements of the 52d Artillery Group, 16th Mountain Artillery Regiment, the 52d Engineers and the Medical Unit from the 52d Infantry Division.

On 20 November, 18,600 Marines from the 2d Marine Division and the V Amphibious Corps spearheaded by the 2d Marine Regiment reached the Betio’s breastwork at 0910. The first landing was attempted on both sides of the main pier on the northern shore of Betio Island and near the northwestern tip of the island. Some 200 amphibious tanks and landing craft were employed, but about two-thirds were destroyed in the course of landing, while the others succeeded in reaching the shore. The Japanese forces closed in on the enemy from three directions: south, east, and west and pressed the enemies near the pier where fierce close quarters combat ensued.

As soon as the enemy started landing in the Gilbert area, the Commander in Chief, of the Combined Fleet reacted and ordered the Army KO Detachment as reinforcements to the Gilbert area. He ordered the cruisers Naka, Isuzu, Nagara and two destroyers, a11 of which belonged to the Inner South Seas Force, to transport the KO Detachment to Kwajalein at once. The Advance Force was to act as escort and prepare for a counter landing under the command of the Commander of the 14th Cruiser Division which had cleared Truk on the 21st, reached Ponape on the 22d, left Ponape on the 23d, and reached Kwajalein on the 25th.

(snip)

At 1330 on the 22d, communications with Tarawa ceased completely. Soon after, the Japanese positions on the island were evidently overrun one after the other by enemy tanks. On the 23d, the island fell. Consequently, on the 24th, the Commander in Chief, Combined Fleet, advanced one battalion of the Amy unit located at Ponape to Yusaie to garrison the island and he canceled the landing of the KO Detachment that had advanced to the Kwajalein Atoll.

Thus, the plan to seize the tactical opportunity to subject the Americans to the coordinated attack of air, sea, and land forces in the Gilbert area was never realized. After the fall of the Gilberts, the Combined Fleet planned to contact and destroy the enemy fleet with air power reinforced from the Northwest Area Force by concentrating in the Marshall Islands area.

At 1200 24 November 1943, the Marines witnessed a formal flag raising ceremony. The war for Betio was over.

Approximately 15 seamen posted as lookouts on East and West Island in the Tarawa Atoll were killed during the enemy's landing on the 21st. Nearly all of the men on the atoll died in action or committed suicide. Only 146 men, predominantly Korean laborers attached to the construction unit, fell prisoner.

Of the 146 that surrendered included were one officer Kamae, mentioned above two were known members of the 3d Special Base Force, Seaman Tadao Onnuki and PO2c Aado Onoki. Seaman Onnuki who was captured while dazed.

Stan was in the Army Air Corps during WWII and was stationed on Tarawa for a long time.
He has also written the definative book on Guadalcanal to be published winter 2004.

[Valin]

Be Nice to New Jersey Week (Day 5)
Nude Recreation Week (Day 4)
National Canned Luncheon Meat Week (Day 5)
Baked Beans Month


Connect the dots.
DISTRUBING IMAGE ALERT!!!

[E.G.C.]

Thanks Sam and everybody. They couldn't find anything wrong with him at the hospital.

Apparently, he seems to be catching a virus which is making the runs here in Southwest Oklahoma.

They gave him some medication and have arranged folow-ups with his doctor. We'll see what happens.