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The FReeper Foxhole Remembers the Campaign to Capture Geronimo (Jul - Sep, 1886) - June, 13th, 2005
Wild West Magazine | October 1999 | Louis Kraft

Posted on 06/12/2005 10:08:19 PM PDT by SAMWolf



Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.


.................................................................. .................... ...........................................

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Assignment Geronimo

General Nelson Miles summoned Lieutenant Charles Gatewood to Albuquerque in July 1886 and ordered the reluctant veteran of the Apache wars to go find the elusive Chiricahua leader down in the mountains of Mexico.


2nd Lt. Charles Gatewood


On March 27, 1886, Geronimo and Naiche, the hereditary Chiricahua chieftain, along with the remnants of their band of Chiricahua Apaches, surrendered to General George Crook at Cañon de los Embudos, Sonora, Mexico. That surrender should have ended the last Apache war. Should have. It did not. Instead, it set in motion a series of events that would resurrect a lieutenant's career that had all but ended when he stood up for Indian rights.

Geronimo began drinking after the surrender. At the second camp on the trip back to the United States, he, Naiche and 34 other men, women and children slipped into the night and vanished. In short order, Crook resigned as commander of the Department of Arizona (April 1), and General Nelson Miles, who had campaigned for his assignment, replaced him (April 11). Miles immediately dumped Crook's strategy of using Indians to defeat Indians. Reducing Indians to auxiliary duty only, Miles assembled 5,000 U.S. troops to patrol the international border and guard all known water holes. Using the U.S. 4th Cavalry as his primary offensive weapon, he began sending seek-and-destroy missions into Mexico.

Three months passed. Geronimo and those with him were worn out, hungry and shot up. Even so, they avoided capture.

Miles had no intention of sharing Crook's fate. While continuing the hunt, he decided to send an officer into Mexico to negotiate with Geronimo. Although he was unsure who to select, he knew the officer had to be a Crook man (none of his own men knew the Chiricahuas). Unfortunately, two of the three men perfectly fitted for the assignment were no longer available: Captain Emmet Crawford was dead, and Lieutenant Britton Davis had resigned his commission. That left the Crook outcast--Lieutenant Charles Gatewood.


General George Crook


The Apaches called Gatewood Bay-chen-daysen, which translates to "Long Nose." Tall, slender and Southern born, Gatewood graduated from West Point in 1877. Shortly after reporting for duty with the 6th U.S. Cavalry at Fort Apache, Arizona Territory, in 1878, he became a veteran Indian campaigner. By 1884, Gatewood had emerged as one of Crook's handpicked subalterns to bring peace to the Southwest. An experienced commander of Apache scouts, he also served as military commandant of the White Mountain Indian Reservation, headquartered at Fort Apache. His career looked promising.

Then he arrested Thomas Zuck, a territorial judge, for defrauding his wards. When Crook asked him to drop the charges, Gatewood refused. This set off a series of litigations that led to the end of Gatewood's working relationship with Crook and the Apaches but ultimately to his participation in the last Apache war.

On July 13, 1886, Miles summoned Gatewood--who knew every member of the hostile band--to his office in Albuquerque, New Mexico Territory. He ordered the lieutenant to take two Chiricahua guides, find the elusive warring Apaches in Mexico and demand their surrender. Gatewood balked. The mission sounded like a fool's errand. Besides, he was not healthy; his arthritic body could not handle a prolonged campaign in the wilds of Mexico.

Miles offered to eventually make the lieutenant his aide-de-camp. The position appealed to Gatewood. After outfitting at Fort Bowie, Arizona Territory, he set out with Martine (a Nednhi Chiricahua) and Kayitah (who was either a Nednhi or a Chokonen Chiricahua), both of whom were related to members of the hostile band; interpreter George Wratten; and packer Frank Huston. Everyone rode mules. Courier Tex Whaley joined Gatewood before he dropped into Mexico on July 19.


General Nelson Miles


Gatewood traveled eastward in Sonora, cut through the Guadalupe Mountains and into Chihuahua. The trek south played havoc with his health. His joints ached, he suffered from dysentery, and he had an inflamed bladder. When he reached Carretas on July 21, Lieutenant James Parker, who had supposedly followed Geronimo's trail, told him there was no trail to follow.

Gatewood refused to quit. After resting for six days, he set out to find Captain Henry Lawton (U.S. 4th Cavalry), who was leading Miles' primary seek-and-destroy column in the field. Lawton was somewhere to the south in the Sierra Madre. After traveling 150 miles, on August 3 Gatewood found Lawton on the Aros River.

Lawton--who also had no idea where the hostiles were--was not pleased with Gatewood's appearance. After making it clear he intended to "hunt Geronimo down and kill him," Lawton allowed Gatewood to join his command.

Rains pounded the earth nightly. During daylight hours, a merciless sun reached 117 degrees. Days passed. Lawton meandered one way and then another. He found nothing. During this time, Gatewood's health continued to deteriorate. On August 8 he asked Leonard Wood, Lawton's surgeon and second-in-command, to medically discharge him. Wood refused.

While moving northward, on August 18, Lawton and Gatewood heard that two Apache women had opened negotiations for peace at the pueblo of Fronteras, some 70 miles to the northwest. Gatewood, with Kayitah, Martine, Wratten, several packers and six of Lawton's men, set out for Fronteras the next morning at 2 a.m. He rode and walked 55 miles, arriving at Cuchuta late that night.


Geronimo and Gen. Crook at Cañon de Los Embudos, Sonora, March 27, 1886, photo by Camillus S. Fly.


On August 20, Gatewood pushed on the remaining 15 miles to Fronteras. He presented himself to Jesus Aguirre, the prefecto of the Sonaran district of Arispe, to which Fronteras belonged. The meeting did not go well. Aguirre did not support Gatewood's mission.

After his interview with Aguirre, Gatewood camped with an assembly of American troops three miles below Fronteras. After dark, Aguirre visited the American camp. Although Aguirre told several officers he did not want them present when he negotiated peace with Geronimo, he told Gatewood he hoped to get the Apaches drunk and then massacre them.



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KEYWORDS: apache; charlesgatewood; freeperfoxhole; geronimo; indianwars; veterans
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During the next two days Gatewood made no attempt to contact Geronimo. When Lawton heard, he rode to Fronteras to find out why. However, before he saw Gatewood, he got drunk. Wood, who had accompanied Lawton, assumed command and ordered Gatewood to find Geronimo.


Scouts from Geronimo Campaign.


Gatewood told Aguirre he had ended his search for Geronimo and would rejoin Lawton's command. At dusk, the lieutenant moved south. He enlisted two additional interpreters, Tom Horn and Jesus Maria Yestes, and between six and eight soldiers. Horn was serving as chief of scouts for one of the columns in Mexico; Yestes lived in Fronteras. Gatewood had no intention of rejoining Lawton. The march was little more than an act to convince anyone who watched that he would rejoin Lawton. After traveling six miles, it was dark enough for his purposes. Gatewood ducked into an arroyo, then turned eastward into the mountains. Shortly after midnight, he turned northward, toward Fronteras.

Early on August 23, he found the trail of the two Apache women who had spoken with Aguirre. It led eastward, down the mountain toward the Bavispe River. By the time Gatewood reached the Bavispe, all signs indicated that the Chiricahuas were close. Gnarly crags towered above. Fearing ambush, Gatewood slowed his pace to a crawl.

The following morning the women's tracks joined Geronimo's. Gatewood followed them through a canyon and into the valley of the Bavispe. Just past noon, he reached a canebrake below a peak that offered a good view of the surrounding country. After setting up camp, he sent Kayitah and Martine out to find Geronimo.

During the wait, Gatewood sent several messengers back to Lawton. Anticipating meeting Geronimo the next day, he requested tobacco and supplies.



Lieutenant Robert Brown (4th Cavalry) and 30 Indian scouts showed up at Gatewood's camp shortly before Martine returned by himself at sundown. Kayitah had remained at the Chiricahua stronghold. Martine described the stronghold as "an exceedingly rocky position high up in the [Teres] mountains in the bend of the Bavispe." Martine said that Geronimo and Naiche wanted to talk peace--but only with Gatewood.

On August 25, an anxious Gatewood packed 15 pounds of tobacco, cigarette papers, and matches that had arrived from Lawton during the night. He moved out at sunrise. Martine led the way, and Brown's scouts served as escort. After traveling several miles along the canyon floor, Gatewood began to ascend the mountain that Geronimo held. An unarmed Chiricahua warrior appeared, then three armed warriors. Geronimo would meet at the bend of the river where there was water, wood, grass and shade, but only if Brown's Indian scouts left. Gatewood sent Brown back to the canebrake.

Gatewood, with Martine, Wratten, Yestes, Horn, maybe one soldier and the four Chiricahuas, reached the bend of the Bavispe shortly after 8 a.m. Suddenly, armed warriors appeared on the mountain and began their descent. "We were very anxious for a few minutes," Martine remembered, "thinking that maybe Geronimo had changed his mind and meant trouble for us."

It was too late to run.



When the Chiricahuas reached the mountain base, they vanished, only to explode out of the bush from different directions. Some 35 to 40 Chiricahuas, including 21 warriors, surrounded Gatewood. Kayitah appeared. There was no sign of Geronimo.

Gatewood greeted everyone, then took off his arms. The Indians immediately asked for tobacco and alcohol. Gatewood had no alcohol, but passed out the makings for smokes. Everyone rolled cigarettes and lighted up.

Geronimo appeared, set his Winchester down and crossed to Gatewood. As they shook hands, Geronimo said "Anzhoo--How are you?" Before Gatewood could reply, Geronimo commented on the lieutenant's thinness and apparent bad health and asked him what was the matter. Gatewood answered and they sat down together--too close for the lieutenant's comfort.

Gatewood asked about the negotiations with the Mexicans. Geronimo explained that he wanted supplies, mescal and time to rest and figured the Mexicans would let him have those things if they thought he would surrender to them.

The moment of reckoning had arrived. With warriors surrounding him and Geronimo staring at him, Gatewood felt "chilly twitching movements." He said, "I am directed by General Miles to ask the surrender of yourself and followers to the United States government."



"On what conditions?" Geronimo asked.

"An unconditional surrender." Feeling his way carefully, Gatewood continued: "Surrender and you will be sent to join the rest of your people in Florida, there to await the decision of the President as to your final disposition. Accept these terms or fight it out to the bitter end."

Silence.

Geronimo rubbed his face, his eyes. Then, holding his arms before Gatewood, made them tremble. "We have been on a three days' drunk," Geronimo said. "The Mexicans expected to play their usual trick of getting us drunk and killing us, but we have had the fun; and now I feel a little shaky.

"[We] can't surrender. [We do] not want to go to Florida." He then said, "[We want] to go back to the White Mountains the same as before."


Geronimo (on right), photo by C. S. Fly


Gatewood told Geronimo that he had no authority to offer terms. "If I was authorized to accede to these modest propositions, the war might be considered at an end right there," the lieutenant said.

After Geronimo recited all the wrongs done to his people, the talk turned to what the Chiricahuas should do. Warrior tempers flared. They moved away from Gatewood to speak in private.

Geronimo resumed negotiations with Gatewood after a lunch break. He said he wanted the usual terms, including no punishment. Geronimo then snapped: "To expect [us] to give up the whole Southwest to a race of intruders [is] too much....[We] are willing to cede all of it except the reservation. [We] will move back on that land or fight till the last one of [us] is dead." Geronimo looked Gatewood square in the eye. "Take us to the reservation or fight."
1 posted on 06/12/2005 10:08:20 PM PDT by SAMWolf
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To: snippy_about_it; radu; Victoria Delsoul; LaDivaLoca; TEXOKIE; cherry_bomb88; Bethbg79; Pippin; ...
Gatewood could do neither. Surrounded, he could not even run. It did not look good. Naiche spoke for the first time, saying that Gatewood had come in peace and would be allowed to leave in peace.



Breathing easier, Gatewood decided to gamble and say a "truth" that had not happened yet. He told Geronimo and Naiche that the rest of their people had been removed to Florida. These words shocked the Indians.

"[Are you] telling the truth, or...[is this] a trick to get [us] in the white man's clutches?" Geronimo asked. Abruptly, Geronimo, Naiche and the others moved to the other side of the canebrake.


"Heliographic station #3 Bowie District system [Ariz. Terr.] ... Used exclusively in the Apache Indian War."


An hour later they returned to Gatewood. Nothing had changed--a return to the reservation or fight. Gatewood passed out more tobacco and paper. Everyone rolled cigarettes and smoked. The talk drifted from the problem at hand, easing the tension. Hours passed. Everyone ate, smoked, joked and drank muddy warm water from the river.

When Gatewood prepared to leave, Geronimo stopped him. "We want your advice," he said. "Consider yourself one of us and not a white man. Remember all that has been said today, and as an Apache what would you advise us to do under the circumstances?"

"I would trust General Miles and take him at his word," Gatewood replied.

Geronimo said he would announce their decision in the morning. "You can come to our camp anywhere," he said. "Never fear harm." Gatewood shook hands all around, mounted and left. Night had fallen by the time Gatewood reached his bivouac. He told Lawton, who had arrived in the afternoon, that Geronimo "declined to make an unconditional surrender."

Next morning scouts yelled for Gatewood. Geronimo, Naiche and several others appeared beyond the picket line and wanted to see him. Gatewood took Wratten, Yestes and Horn and met the Apaches. Geronimo said: "If you will give your word that we can meet General Miles with safety, we will go to him and accept his terms. We will throw ourselves on his mercy, something we have never done before." He then insisted upon several conditions: (1) Lawton would follow the Indians back to the United States to protect them from Mexican and American troops; (2) both parties would have the freedom of the other's camp; (3) the Indians would keep their weapons until they surrendered; and (4) Gatewood would march and sleep with the Indians. Gatewood accepted the terms.

Gatewood led the Apaches into the white bivouac and introduced them to Lawton, who also agreed to the terms set forth by Geronimo. They selected Skeleton Canyon, some 35 miles north of Mexico on the Arizona­New Mexico border, as the location for the official surrender to Miles.


Geronimo


The two groups left on the morning of August 28. Gatewood and Geronimo kept to the foothills, while Lawton's command skirted the San Bernardino River.

That afternoon after the two camps were set up, Aguirre and his army approached from the west. Geronimo thought the Americans intended to join forces with the Mexicans. Gatewood told him that this was not true, that the Americans would stop the Mexicans while he ran with the Chiricahuas. Everyone mounted and moved northward.

Aguirre met Lawton and demanded the Indians be punished. Lawton said no, the Chiricahuas had surrendered to the Americans. Then, to avoid a clash, Lawton set up a meeting with Geronimo.

Aguirre and six men, along with Lawton and his officers, arrived at the designated location first. No one dismounted. Suddenly, Geronimo walked in from the bush. He carried a Winchester; a revolver dangled on his left hip. An unarmed Gatewood followed him, then Wratten, Naiche and four others. The Indians held cocked rifles. They crossed half the distance to the Mexicans and halted.

The Mexicans didn't move. Several nervously clutched their revolvers. Finally, they dismounted and walked forward.

Gatewood introduced Aguirre and Geronimo. When Aguirre reached to shake hands, Geronimo dropped his free hand to his revolver, then changed his mind and shook the prefecto's hand. Unnerved, Aguirre grabbed his revolver.

Too close for comfort, Gatewood backed up. He later claimed that the whites of Geronimo's eyes turned red. The old warrior gripped his revolver a second time. Aguirre fidgeted, then let go of his gun. So did Geronimo, averting gunplay.

Aguirre asked Geronimo why he did not surrender to him. Geronimo snapped that he did not want to be murdered. Next, Aguirre stated he intended to accompany the Chiricahuas to the border. "No, you are going south and I am going north," Geronimo said. "I'll have nothing to do with you nor with any of your people."

The conference ended.


Camp Apache, Arizona Territory, 1877


That night Gatewood realized that he had a major problem. The Indians still believed that the Mexicans and Americans might join forces and kill them. After discussing the problem with Kayitah, Martine and Wratten, he suggested to Geronimo that he and his band run for the border--about 30 miles to the north--while the Americans remained behind with the Mexicans. The Indians agreed.

After selling the plan to Lawton, Gatewood departed. As daylight arrived on August 29, Gatewood and his companions were exhausted, but they pressed onward. Lawton, Wood and several soldiers then caught up to them. The Mexicans had gone off and would not cause problems.

Everyone waited for Lawton's command to appear. It never did. Lawton sent Wood's orderly back to find the troops. When the orderly failed to return, Lawton set out to find his missing command.

Gatewood--with Wood in attendance--and the Chiricahuas resumed their trek after dark. After traveling eight miles, Geronimo halted at a defensible position east of the San Bernardino. At dawn on the 30th, they moved on, reaching Alias Creek by midmorning. Everyone was tired and hungry. Gatewood and Geronimo halted for the day. Soon after, Wood left to find Lawton.

Lawton had found his command. By the time Wood reached it, however, Lawton had set out for the nearest heliographic station to send a message to Miles. Lieutenant Abiel Smith (4th Cavalry) was now in command. This development came about when Lawton confided to Smith that he was nervous about keeping his promise of delivering the hostiles safely. "I haven't promised them anything," Smith told Lawton. "You...communicate with Miles and I'll take command." Smith and Wood decided not to wait for Lawton to return. They set out for Geronimo's camp.


Chiricahua Apache prisoners, including Geronimo (first row, third from right), seated on an embankment outside their railroad car, Arizona, 1886.


On August 31 both outfits broke camp at 7 a.m. The soldiers maintained a discreet distance. That morning a messenger overtook Smith and Wood. It is unknown what the communiqué stated. However, it must have been strong for it changed their outlook.

The Apaches became nervous when they approached Guadalupe Canyon, which marks the entrance into the United States. It was here, 15 months earlier, that they had killed some of Lawton's men. Although Gatewood tried to reassure them, he could not change the destination. Guadalupe Canyon contained much needed water.

As soon as the two camps were set up, warriors rode to the soldier camp to study the back trail and watch the Americans. Ignoring his Indian guests, Smith reviewed the situation with his fellow officers. He wanted to disarm the Chiricahuas and make them true prisoners. Smith underestimated the Indians' comprehension of English and spoke openly. "We had quite a discussion about the matter," Wood wrote, "and it was arranged that in case of any ugly spirit breaking out during the conference or the Indians refusing to be reasonable that each man should kill the Indian next to him." The warriors got the gist of what he proposed. They raced back to Gatewood and Geronimo and reported that Smith "expressed a desire to pitch in with the troop and have it out right there."

Panic reigned. As the Chiricahuas mounted and hustled to get out of the canyon, the soldiers started for Geronimo's camp. Wratten, who had also been in the white camp, told Gatewood that Smith and Wood approached at a leisurely pace.



Gatewood leaped on his mule and raced after the fleeing Geronimo. After catching him, he repeated what he had just heard. Geronimo slowed his mount to a walk. "What...should [you] do in case [we are] fired on by the troops?" he asked.

"I [will] proceed toward the troops and endeavor to have the firing stopped," Gatewood replied. "Otherwise I [will] run away with [you]."

They kept moving until they found a defensible spot. After setting up camp, Gatewood took Geronimo and Wratten and rode back to confront the white men. When he saw the soldiers in the distance, he halted and waited as the Americans came forward in single file.

Gatewood asked what the officers wanted. Smith said he wanted to meet with the Chiricahuas. Gatewood said there would be no meeting. Smith cited his seniority in rank and demanded a meeting. Gatewood refused. Tempers flared. Finally, Gatewood stated he knew Smith's real objective: the proposed murder of Geronimo.

When Smith continued to insist upon the meeting, Gatewood "threatened to blow the head off the first man if he didn't stop." Wood happened to be first in line. Sensing the reality of Gatewood's threat, he pulled back and sent an orderly to fetch Lawton. Smith, now first in line, also backed down.

Murder had been averted. The refugees reached Skeleton Canyon without further incident. Geronimo surrendered on September 3, 1886, Naiche surrendered on September 4, and the last Apache war ended.

Additional Sources:

www.discoverseaz.com
www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com
www.wsmr-history.org
www.kshs.org
www.wildwestweb.net/
www.forumuniversitaire.com
www.leavenworth.army.mil
www.archives.gov
www.stanfordgallery.com
www.drugwar.com
www.firstpeople.us
www.csulb.edu
www.plentycoups.org

2 posted on 06/12/2005 10:09:21 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: All
In Pursuit of Geronimo


Following his surrender in 1883, Geronimo and his band had agreed to live on the San Carlos Reservation. In May 1885, however, a band of Apaches, led by Geronimo, Nana and Nachez, left the San Carlos reservation and fled to the Sierra Madre Mountains of Old Mexico where they resumed their former life of raiding Mexican towns and ranches.


General Philip Sheridan


From Fort Bowie and Fort Huachuca, General George Crook pursued the Indians for ten months. At one point, Geronimo agreed to surrender, but, on the night before, changed his mind and took off again across the border, leaving the embarrassed General Crook to explain the fiasco to his superiors.

The commanding general, Philip Sheridan, had never supported Crook's use of Apaches as scouts and disagreed with Crook's tendency to negotiate with the hostiles on their own terms. Sheridan, then, was highly displeased to hear that on March 29, 1886, Crook had left his charges before they had reached Fort Bowie, allowing them to escape during the night.

Reacting to Sheridan's acute displeasure, Crook impetuously asked to be relieved of his command. He was swiftly replaced by the ambitious General Nelson A. Miles who accepted command of the Department of Arizona on April 2, 1886.

Operating on the principle that a new broom sweeps clean, Miles was determined to make short work of his current assignment. Major George W. Baird described Miles's tactics in Century magazine, July, 1891.

Two tasks confronted him; to capture and destroy the Indians who were actively hostile led by Geronimo and Natchez, and to repress and control those who, through sympathy and relationship with the hostiles, and through instinct and experience were ready to take the warpath and swell the tide of devastation. The mountains and the sun--the first the strongholds of the savages and almost impassable obstacles to the troops, the latter the cause of the desert-like dryness and the intolerable heat which augmented the difficulties of campaigning almost to the point of impossibility--were made his allies, the eyes of his command, and the carriers of swift messages. By a system of heliograph signals, communications were sent with almost incredible swiftness; in one instance a message traveled seven hundred miles in four hours. The messages, flashed by mirrors from peak to peak of the mountains, disheartened the Indians as they crept stealthily or rode swiftly through the valleys, assuring them that all their arts and craft had not availed to conceal their trails, that troops were pursuing them and others awaiting them. The telescopes of the Signal Corps, who garrisoned the rudely built but impregnable works on the mountains, permitted no movement by day, no cloud of dust even in the valleys below to escape attention. Little wonder that the Indians thought that the powers of the unseen world were confederated against them

. These tactics were continued throughout the brutal summer of 1886 with scarce water, little grass and heat often reaching 120 degrees. At last the worn out Indians surrendered on September 4th.

The final surrender of Geronimo took place at Skeleton Canyon (near Douglas) in September 1886. From there he was escorted to Fort Bowie and later removed to Florida. He lived until 1909, becoming a public figure and national celebrity in his old age.


3 posted on 06/12/2005 10:09:51 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: All


Veterans for Constitution Restoration is a non-profit, non-partisan educational and grassroots activist organization. The primary area of concern to all VetsCoR members is that our national and local educational systems fall short in teaching students and all American citizens the history and underlying principles on which our Constitutional republic-based system of self-government was founded. VetsCoR members are also very concerned that the Federal government long ago over-stepped its limited authority as clearly specified in the United States Constitution, as well as the Founding Fathers' supporting letters, essays, and other public documents.





Actively seeking volunteers to provide this valuable service to Veterans and their families.




We here at Blue Stars For A Safe Return are working hard to honor all of our military, past and present, and their families. Inlcuding the veterans, and POW/MIA's. I feel that not enough is done to recognize the past efforts of the veterans, and remember those who have never been found.

I realized that our Veterans have no "official" seal, so we created one as part of that recognition. To see what it looks like and the Star that we have dedicated to you, the Veteran, please check out our site.

Veterans Wall of Honor

Blue Stars for a Safe Return


UPDATED THROUGH APRIL 2004




The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul

Click on Hagar for
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LINK TO FOXHOLE THREADS INDEXED by PAR35

4 posted on 06/12/2005 10:10:12 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: Bigturbowski; ruoflaw; Bombardier; Steelerfan; SafeReturn; Brad's Gramma; AZamericonnie; SZonian; ..



"FALL IN" to the FReeper Foxhole!



Good Monday Morning Everyone.

If you want to be added to our ping list, let us know.


5 posted on 06/12/2005 10:14:12 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: SAMWolf
"Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?"

Taking this as a real question, there is an extract of lemon and orange peels called d-limonene that is an effective detergent especially on oily soils. It's smell is citrusy, attractive to most. D-limonene is widely used as a component in industrial cleaning solvents.

Those required lemon and orange peels are available at zero cost as a byproduct of the juice industry.

Is this d-lemonene "real lemons"? Matter of opinion. It is extracted from lemons and other citrus fruit.
6 posted on 06/13/2005 1:41:07 AM PDT by Iris7 ("War means fighting, and fighting means killing." - Bedford Forrest)
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To: SAMWolf
Thinking about the Army's logistics needs on this Geronimo operation, I went to Purina for data.

At 100 degrees fahrenheit, an 800 pound horse requires, on a daily basis and a "moderate" rate of work, eight pounds of forage and eight pounds of grain. Water requirements at 100 degrees are 14.5 gallons per day. This is 120 pounds of water per horse per day. Total is 136 pounds per horse per day if you can't get good water.

If you carry the horse's needs in wagons, a two ton load (big wagon) is 14.7 horse-days. Guessing, we will say this is twenty mule days. Four mules on the wagon means that the wagon and mules will use up all the supplies in five days, with none left for other purposes.
7 posted on 06/13/2005 2:06:20 AM PDT by Iris7 ("War means fighting, and fighting means killing." - Bedford Forrest)
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To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.


8 posted on 06/13/2005 2:14:58 AM PDT by Aeronaut (2 Chronicles 7:14.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good morning Snippy and everyone at the foxhole.


9 posted on 06/13/2005 3:07:47 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: snippy_about_it

Good morning


10 posted on 06/13/2005 3:37:17 AM PDT by GailA (Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All

A Soggy Monday Morning Bump for the Freeper Foxhole

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


11 posted on 06/13/2005 3:40:18 AM PDT by alfa6
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Professional Engineer; msdrby; alfa6; PhilDragoo; radu; Samwise; Valin; ..

Good morning everyone.

12 posted on 06/13/2005 5:49:34 AM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All

June 13, 2005

Spiritual Deafness

Read:
1 Corinthians 2

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. —1 Corinthians 2:14

Bible In One Year: Ecclesiastes 10-12

cover Some people suffer from a strange hearing disorder—they can hear sounds but can't understand words. They have no trouble hearing a bird sing or a watch tick, but words are as unintelligible as if they were a foreign language. The source of the problem is not in the ears. It stems from an injury to the brain.

There is also a spiritual deafness that affects many people. Because of a sinful heart, those without faith in Christ can read the Bible and hear the teachings of God's Word, but its spiritual message is foolishness to them (1 Corinthians 2:14).

That explains why some people can appreciate the Bible as literature, as reliable history, and as a source of high moral standards, but they fail to understand its spiritual message. They don't grasp the significance of what it says about Christ—His death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection, and His ministry of intercession for us in heaven today. These truths make no sense to them.

As you read the Bible, do you "hear" what it says? If not, ask the Lord to open your understanding to what it says about Jesus. Put your trust in Him as your personal Savior and experience a spiritual birth. That's the cure for spiritual deafness. —Richard De Haan

We cannot understand God's truth
Until we know the Lord;
It's when our heart is home to Him
We understand His Word. —Anon.

The key to understanding the written Word is knowing the Living Word.

FOR FURTHER STUDY
Can I Really Trust The Bible?
How Can I Know God Through His Book?

13 posted on 06/13/2005 6:05:14 AM PDT by The Mayor ( Pray as if everything depends on God; work as if everything depends on you.)
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To: SAMWolf

On This Day In History


Birthdates which occurred on June 13:
0040 Gnaeus Julius Agricola Roman general; conquered Wales, No. England
0823 Charles II (the Bald) king of France (843-77), emperor (875-77)
1773 Thomas Young proponent of the wave theory of light
1786 Winfield Scott American army general/presidential candidate
1831 James Clerk Maxwell physicist, formulated electromagnetic theory
1865 William Butler Yeats Ireland, poet (Wild Swans at Coole-Nobel 1923)
1881 Lois Weber 1st US woman film director (What Do Men Want?)
1892 Basil Rathbone Johannesburg S Africa, actor (Sherlock Holmes)
1893 Dorothy L Sayers England, novelist (9 Taylors)
1903 Harold "Red" Grange "Galloping Ghost" of football (Illinois Bears)
1911 Albert Cleage famous African
1913 Ralph Edwards Merino Colo, TV host (This is Your Life)
1918 Ben Johnson Foraker Okla, actor (Chisum, Battle Force, Dillinger, The Wild Bunch)
1926 Paul Lynde Mt Vernon Ohio, comedian (Uncle Arthur-Bewitched, Hollywood Squares)
1935 Christo Bulgaria, artist, wrapper (Running Fence)
1944 Joe Amato NHRA top fuel drag racing champion (1991)
1945 Ronald J Grabe NYC, Col USAF/astronaut (STS 51-J, STS 30, STS 42)
1951 Richard Thomas NYC, (John Boy-Waltons, Last Summer, Johnny Belinda)
1962 Ally Sheedy NYC, actress (St Elmo's, Short Circuit, Maid to Order)
1971 Broderick nonuplets Sydney Australia (7 of 9 survived infancy)
1986 Ashley Olsen actress (Full House)
1986 Mary Kate Olsen actress (Full House)
1992 Tyler Davison, world's smallest baby at 6 inches, 11 ounces, was born



Deaths which occurred on June 13:
0323 BC Alexander the Great dies of fever at Babylon
1886 King Ludwig II of Bavaria drowns(Murdered?)
1946 Edward Bowes radio host (Major Bowes Amateur Hour), dies at 71
1961 Ben Jones Missouri, horse trainer (Citation, Whirlaway), dies at 79
1972 Clyde McPhatter singer (The Drifters) dies of a heart attack
1976 Don Bolles investigative reporter Arizona Republic murdered (Working on a Mafia story at the time of his death)
1977 Tom C Clark former Supreme Court Justice, dies in NY at 77
1979 Darla Hood actress (Little Rascals), dies
1982 King Khalid of Saudi Arabia, dies at 69
1986 Benny Goodman King of Swing, dies in NY at 77
1987 Geraldine Page actress (Blue & Gray), dies at 62
1993 Donald "Deke" K Slayton, Us major/astronaut: Apollo 18, dies at 69


GWOT Casualties

Iraq
13-Jun-2003 1 | US: 1 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Staff Sergeant Andrew R. Pokorny Al Asad Non-hostile - vehicle accident

13-Jun-2004 1 | US: 1 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Specialist Eric S. McKinley Taji (near) Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack



Afghanistan
A Good Day

http://icasualties.org/oif/
Data research by Pat Kneisler
Designed and maintained by Michael White


On this day...
1373 Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of Alliance (world's oldest) signed
1415 Henry the Navigator, prince of Portugal, embarks on an expedition to Africa.
1611 John Fabricius dedicates earliest sunspot publication
1774 Rhode Island becomes 1st colony to prohibit importation of slaves
1777 Marquis de Lafayette lands in US
1789 Mrs Alexander Hamilton serves ice cream for dessert to Washington
1798 Mission San Luis Rey de Francia founded in California
1837 1st Mormon missionaries to the British Isles leave Kirtland, Ohio
1866 House passes 14th Amendment
1871 Hurricane kills 300 in Labrador
1873 J C Watson discovers asteroid #132 Aethra
1886 Fire destroys nearly 1,000 buildings in Vancouver, BC
1888 Congress creates the Department of Labor
1889 2' of snow accumulates in Rawlins Wyoming
1895 Emile Levassor wins 1st Paris-Bordeaux-Paris auto race (24 kph)
1898 Yukon Territory of Canada organized, Dawson chosen as capital
1900 China's Boxer Rebellion against foreigners & Christians
1907 Lowest temp ever in 48 US states for June, 2øF in Tamarack Calif
1920 U.S. Post Office Department rules that children may not be sent by parcel post
1921 Yanks' pitcher Babe Ruth hits 2 HRs beating Tigers 11-8
1924 Yanks win by forfeit over Tigers, their 3rd forfeit win
1927 Ticker-tape parade welcomed Charles A Lindbergh to NYC
1930 22 people killed by hailstones in Siatista Greece
1933 German Secret State Police (Gestapo) was established
1933 Federal Home Owners Loan Corporation authorized
1934 C Jackson discovers asteroid #1349 Bechuana
1935 James T Braddocks beats Max Baer for HW boxing champ
1937 Joe DiMaggio hits 3 consecutive HRs against St Louis Browns
1940 Paris evacuated before the German advance
1941 Thousands of Jewish community leaders in Bessarabia were deported to Siberia as part of the general purge
1942 The OSS, Office of Strategic Services formed (forerunner of CIA)
1942 1st V-2 rocket launch, Peenemunde, Germany; reached 1.3 km
1944 Nazi Germany begins V-1 (Fieseler Fi-103) buzz-bomb attacks
1946 1st transcontinental round-trip flight in 1-day, California-Maryland
1947 1st night game at Fenway Park (Red Sox 5, White Sox 3)
1948 Babe Ruth's final farewell at Yankee Stadium, he dies Aug 16th
1955 Mercedes racing car kills 77 at Le Mans France
1966 Supreme Court's Miranda decision; suspect must be informed of rights
1967 Thurgood Marshall nominated as 1st black Supreme Court justice
1969 Mick Taylor leaves John Mayall Band & joins the Rolling Stones
1969 T Smirnova discovers asteroid #2111 Tselina
1970 Beatles' "Let It Be," album goes #1 & stays #1 for 4 weeks
1970 Beatles' "Long & Winding Road," single goes #1 & stays #1 for 2 weeks
1971 NY Times began publishing "The Pentagon Papers"
1971 Perth Observatory discovers asteroids #1806 Derice & #1978 Patrice
1973 Garvey, Lopes, Cey & Russell play together for 1st time, set record of staying together as an infield for 8+ years (LA Dodgers)
1977 Convicted assassin James Earl Ray recaptured
1980 Rep John Jenrette Jr (D-SC) indicted in "Abscam" investigation
1980 UN Security Council calls for South Africa to free Nelson Mandela
1981 Teenager fires 6 blanks at Queen Elizabeth II
1981 Tom Snyder interviews Charles Manson on "Tomorrow"
1982 Fahd becomes king of Saudi Arabia when King Khalid dies at 69
1983 Pioneer 10 becomes 1st man-made object to leave Solar System
1986 Pres Reagan criticizes South African state of emergency
1987 Daniel Buettner, Bret Anderson, Martin Engel & Anne Knabe complete cycling journey of 15,266 mi from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska to Argentina
1988 Boston Red Sox are 10 games back in AL, & go on to win the AL East (for all the good it did)
1988 US Supreme Court refuses to hear Yonkers argument they aren't racist
1990 Boeing 767 sets nonstop commercial flight, Seattle to Narobi Kenya
1990 Wash DC mayor Marion Barry announces he will not seek a 4th term,
1994 The ex-wife of O.J. Simpson and her friend, Ron Goldman, were found stabbed to death outside her condominium in the Brentwood section of Los Angeles.
1996 16 remaining members of the Freemen militia surrendered, 10 days after the FBI cut off electricity to their Montana compound. The standoff lasted 81 days.
1996 US Supreme Court strikes down racial gerrymandering
1996 Nature magazine reports guinea pigs are on a distant branch from rodents and deserve a class of their own.
1997 Chicago Bulls win their fifth professional basketball championship in seven years with a 90-86 victory over the Utah Jazz in Game 6 of the NBA finals.
1998 Madagascar reports a grasshopper swarm, 7 miles long, had spread into the capital city of Antananarivo
2000 Italy pardoned Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turkish gunman who'd tried to kill Pope John Paul II in 1981.
2002 Afghanistan's interim leader Hamid Karzai wins endorsement from about two-thirds of delegates at the Loya Jirga grand assembly, making him the most likely candidate to win the presidency
2002 The U.N. World Food Summit in Rome ended much as it began, with criticism about the proliferation of biotech crops and complaints that too little has been done to end world hunger (This makes a lot of sense....not)
2003 Anti-government demonstrations in Iran continue for the third night in Tehran
2004 It was reported that a quarter teaspoon of cinnamon a day helped to reduce glucose, fat and cholesterol levels by a s much as 30%


Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

Yemen Arab Rep : Reform Movement Day
Shelby, Mich : National Asparagus Festival (Thursday)
National Kitchen Klutzes day
National Juggling Day
USA : Flag Week (Day 2)
Own Your Share of America Month


Religious Observances
Luth-Manheim, Penn : Rose Day anniversary
RC : Mem of St Anthony of Padua, patron of lovers, poor
Christian : Children's Sunday


Religious History
1525 German Reformer Martin Luther, 42, married former nun Katherine von Bora, 26. Their 21-year marriage bore six children. Kate outlived her husband (who died in 1546) by six years.
1742 English founder of Methodism John Wesley wrote in his journal: 'Oh, let none think his labor is lost because the fruit does not immediately appear.'
1816 Birth of Edward F. Rimbault, the English church organist who composed the hymn tune to which is sung 'O Happy Day, That Fixed My Choice.'
1876 The Presbyterian Church in England merged with the United Presbyterian Church of Scotland, in creating a more uniform representation of the Reformed faith in the British Isles.
1897 Birth of Reuben Larson, missionary pioneer who in 1931 (along with Clarence W. Jones) co-founded the World Radio Missionary Fellowship. Since 1969, WRMF has been headquartered in Opa Locka, Florida.

Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.


French Guys Want to be Preggers
NEW YORK-June 12, 2005 — Forget sympathy pains – nearly 40 percent of French men say they want to go through the real thing.

According to a poll published in the current issue of Children's Magazine, 38 percent of French men questioned say they wish they could be pregnant instead of their wives.

And the poll finds many women would be O-K with that. An even greater percentage of them say they would be up for the switch.

The same survey says 71 percent of the French men surveyed say they're prepared to take a year-long sabbatical or put in a request to work part-time to be more of a hands-on dad.

(Copyright 2005 by the Associated Press. All rights reserved.)


Thought for the day :
"The only sin passion can commit is to be joyless."


14 posted on 06/13/2005 6:38:07 AM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise; Peanut Gallery; Wneighbor
Good morning ladies. Flag-o-Gram.


15 posted on 06/13/2005 7:16:42 AM PDT by Professional Engineer
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To: snippy_about_it

Morning Snippy.


16 posted on 06/13/2005 7:58:58 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: Iris7
Morning Iris7

Those required lemon and orange peels are available at zero cost as a byproduct of the juice industry.

I just knew a Foxholer would know. :-)

17 posted on 06/13/2005 8:00:21 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: Iris7

The problem has been somewhat alleviated by motorization but even in modern war, the fuel and vehicles used to deliver the supplies is sometimes a hinderance to combat operations. Rommel found that out when he had to truck supplies from Tripoli to Egypt in WWII.


18 posted on 06/13/2005 8:05:13 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: Aeronaut

Morning Aeronaut.


19 posted on 06/13/2005 8:05:27 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: SAMWolf
All of the Indians who surrendered with Geronimo were not Chirichuas [neither was Geronimo]. In the famous photo near the train, the woman in the right rear is Lozen, a Warm Springs Apache. She was Victorio's sister. Nana was also a Warm Springs Apache. Nelson Miles was one of the most ambitious, disliked, but successful Indian fighters [all the more amazing because he was primarily an Infantry commander]of the post Civil War Army. Miles had been Jefferson Davis' warden He was not West Point. But his Civil War record was outstanding, and he had distinguished himself in the Sioux War [winter of 1876-1877], as well as in the capture of Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce.

Although his shipment of ALL Apaches [including those from the reservations and the Army's Apache scouts] was not an honorable act, it solved the longest running Indian War in America. He did do his best afterward to see the Apaches received fair treatment, along with George Crook, America's greatest Indian fighter-a strange alliance.He also engaged in some unseemly politicking for promotion, which caused Sherman's dislike for him to harden. Miles wound up as the last Commanding General of the U.S Army.

Suggested reading:

The Apaches:"The People Called Apache", by Thomas E. Mails; "The Apaches"[Osprey Men at Arms Series] by Jason Hook.

The Frontier Army:"Frontier Regulars: The United States army and the Indian, 1866-1890", by Robert M. Utley; " Soldiers West", Paul A. Hutton, ed.

The Apache Indian Wars: "Eyewitness to the Indian Wars 1865-1890: Volume One-The Struggle for Apacheria", by Peter Cozzens; "Apache Wars: An Illustrated Battle History", by E. Lisle Reedstrom; "Crimson Desert", by Odie B. Faulk; "Once They Moved Like The Wind"", by David Roberts; ""The Geronimo Campaign", by Odie B. Faulk.

Biographies: "Geronimo", by Alexander B. Adams; "Geronimo: His Own Story", S.M. Barrett, ed.; "The Fox and the Whirlwind:General George Crook and Geronimo, A Paired Biography", by Peter Aleshire; "Gatewood and Geronimo", by Louis Kraft; "Nelson A. Miles and the Twilight of the Frontier Army", by Robert Wooster.
20 posted on 06/13/2005 8:05:40 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: E.G.C.

Morning E.G.C.

We're supposed to be overcast for the next ten days with possibilty of rain in time for the weekend. Figures.


21 posted on 06/13/2005 8:06:27 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: GailA

Morning GailA.


22 posted on 06/13/2005 8:06:46 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: alfa6
Morning Alfa6

I hate soggy Mondays.

23 posted on 06/13/2005 8:09:23 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: bentfeather
Hi Feather


24 posted on 06/13/2005 8:13:10 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: The Mayor

Morning Mayor.


25 posted on 06/13/2005 8:13:24 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it
Good morning, folks.

We had some rather active weather here yesterday.

Our area was under a Tornado Watch for much of the day. We had storms across parts of Central and Northern Oklahoma.

The Clinton and Weatherford area in Custer County caught the brunt of it all. Power outages, street flooding, there was even a couple of semis blown over on I-40.

All in all an active weather day in parts of Oklahoma.

Today it's much clamer. The sun's out and it's in the low 70's.

How's it going, snippy?((HUGS))

26 posted on 06/13/2005 8:14:19 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: SAMWolf

Oh nice feather, thanks Sam.


27 posted on 06/13/2005 8:14:58 AM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: Valin
1918 Ben Johnson Foraker Okla, actor (Chisum, Battle Force, Dillinger, The Wild Bunch)

Always a great supporting actor and staple of John Wayne westerns.

28 posted on 06/13/2005 8:17:16 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: Professional Engineer

Morning PE.

Nice Flag-O-Gram today. :-)


29 posted on 06/13/2005 8:17:54 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: PzLdr

Morning PxLdr.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I haven't read any of those yet.


30 posted on 06/13/2005 8:19:34 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: SAMWolf

Hi Sam.


31 posted on 06/13/2005 8:42:11 AM PDT by The Mayor ( Pray as if everything depends on God; work as if everything depends on you.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf

Present.


32 posted on 06/13/2005 9:23:05 AM PDT by manna
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To: bentfeather

Hi miss Feather


33 posted on 06/13/2005 10:20:15 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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To: Valin
1935 Christo Bulgaria, artist, wrapper (Running Fence)

Idiot

34 posted on 06/13/2005 10:22:40 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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To: Valin
1831 James Clerk Maxwell physicist, formulated electromagnetic theory

And God said...

ò E.dA = q/e0

ò B.dA = 0 

ò E.ds = -d/dt(ò B.dA) 

ò B.ds = m 0ò j.dA,

...and there was light.

35 posted on 06/13/2005 10:25:54 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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To: Valin; Peanut Gallery
1983 Pioneer 10 becomes 1st man-made object to leave Solar System

I listened on the telephone at 75 cents/minute.

36 posted on 06/13/2005 10:30:57 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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To: manna

Hi Manna

37 posted on 06/13/2005 10:31:06 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: SAMWolf

Hiya Sam


38 posted on 06/13/2005 10:32:11 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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To: SAMWolf; Darksheare; alfa6; Peanut Gallery

Turn your sound up!

http://www.intandem.com/NewPrideSite/Pride2/P2Cannons.html


39 posted on 06/13/2005 11:02:31 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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To: SAMWolf
Ben Johnson was a really good actor. The Pik is from the Wild Bunch, isn't it?

"Why not?"

40 posted on 06/13/2005 12:10:24 PM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: Iris7
Iris, your calculations support the old saying, "amateurs talk tactics but professionals talk logistics."
41 posted on 06/13/2005 12:12:42 PM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: PzLdr; SAMWolf

This is just my lack of knowledge of the period, but I thought Mexico didn't allow the Army to chase Indians in Mexico.


42 posted on 06/13/2005 12:14:13 PM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: Valin; Professional Engineer; SAMWolf; bentfeather; snippy_about_it; All
1920 U.S. Post Office Department rules that children may not be sent by parcel post

Don't forget the airholes now, ya 'ere!!!

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

43 posted on 06/13/2005 12:26:38 PM PDT by alfa6 (Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights made an airplane!)
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To: SAMWolf

I'm off work tomorrow...my quilt guild day. I'm glad I don't have to get up at 5:30 am.


44 posted on 06/13/2005 12:50:17 PM PDT by GailA (Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
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To: colorado tanker
The Pik is from the Wild Bunch, isn't it?

Yep. IMHO, one of the best Westerns ever made.

45 posted on 06/13/2005 12:54:01 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?)
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To: SAMWolf
I agree, the Wild Bunch was a fine movie.

There were also several westerns that used parts of the Geronimo story for plots. Fort Apache and Rio Grande come to mind.

46 posted on 06/13/2005 1:07:16 PM PDT by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: colorado tanker

Originally, they didn't. But the Apaches played the border like the VC played Cambodia. Eventually, the Mexican and US govts agreed to let each other's troops chase Apaches over the border in hot pursuit, and several states (Sonora, Chihuahua) allowed US troops to operate in their territory. Nor was the concept one-sided. The Nedni Apache lived in the Sierra Madres in Mexico. By all accounts they were some of the toughest Apaches on the planet. On two separate occasions, their chief, Juh [pronounced Whoa] led war parties into the US for the specific purpose of killing two Army officers who were having success against the Apaches here.Juh, who was related to Geronimo by marriage, killed both of them.


47 posted on 06/13/2005 1:30:15 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: alfa6

LOL

Cute picture.


48 posted on 06/13/2005 1:35:38 PM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Iris7; Valin; stainlessbanner
Evening Grace Folks~

Hey it's 4PM in Virginia . . . that means I'm posting early for the Foxhole. ;^)

Sure wish I had time to read this, it's an excellent read.

Here are some early pics of our visit to Gettysburg.

From where I'm standing is the woods where Gen. Reynolds was fatally shot. The Trostle Barn in the background.

Day 1, July 1st Lt. Cmdr. Rufus Dawes of the 6th Wisconsin counter attacks at the RR tracks near Willoughby Run River NW of Gettysburg against Col. Edward Fowler of the 2nd Mississippi Infantry.

Starting point along Seminary ridge of Gen. James Pettigrew and Isaac Trimbles advance on Cemetery Hill.

Further down the line of Seminary Ridge, the starting point of Pickett's charge. The group of trees on the right are the target. The tree in the center is where the CSA temporarily broke through.

I walked out to the half-way point of Pickett's charge where the line started to severely brake. The statue of Lee on Traveler is the starting point.

Where I'm standing is where Lee rode out to say "It has been all my fault" to his retreating bloodied troops. (FWIW, at this point of the tour I lost it)

Okay, gotta head out for dinner, I'll post more later.

49 posted on 06/13/2005 1:36:12 PM PDT by w_over_w (Has anyone read "Self Esteem for Dummies"?)
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To: alfa6

A head in a box. Somebody's gonna get a long sentence over that one.


50 posted on 06/13/2005 2:21:22 PM PDT by Professional Engineer (Do, or do not. There is no try. ~ Yoda)
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