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The FReeper Foxhole Remembers Bari: The 'Second Pearl Harbor' (12/2/1943) - Sep. 8th, 2005
World War II Magazine
| Eric Niderost
Posted on 09/07/2005 9:08:58 PM PDT by SAMWolf
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Bari: The 'Second Pearl Harbor'
Dubbed the 'second Pearl Harbor,' the 1943 German attack on Bari also revealed an Allied secret--mustard gas.
On the afternoon of December 2, 1943, 1st Lt. Werner Hahn piloted his Messerschmitt Me-210 reconnaissance plane over the port of Bari, in southeastern Italy. Cruising at 23,000 feet, his aircraft made a telltale contrail as he streaked across the sky, but Allied anti-aircraft crews took little notice. Still unmolested, the German pilot made a second pass over the city before turning north toward home. If Hahn's report was promising, the Luftwaffe would launch a major airstrike against the port.
 ME-210
Bari was a city of some 200,000 people, with an old section of town that dated back to the Middle Ages. Old Bari, clustered on a fist of land that jutted out into the Adriatic, boasted such famed landmarks as the Castello Svevo, a brooding medieval fortress dating to Norman times, and the Basilica San Nicola, which allegedly contained the bones of St. Nicholas.
In contrast, new Bari had broad boulevards and modern buildings. These new buildings included a sports facility nicknamed "Bambino Stadium," which had been built by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini as a reward to the citizens for producing the most babies in a specified period of time. Bari--old and new--had been fortunate, suffering little damage because the Allies had earmarked the city as a major supply port from the start.
As 1943 drew to a close, Bari's medieval torpor and somnolent grace were shaken off by the influx of Allied shipping into its harbor. Tons of supplies were offloaded almost around the clock, transforming the once quiet town into a hive of activity. On December 2, at least 30 Allied ships were crowded into the harbor, packed so tightly they almost touched.
The port was under the jurisdiction of the British, in part because Bari was the main supply base for General Bernard Law Montgomery's Eighth Army. But the city was also the newly designated headquarters of the American Fifteenth Air Force, which had been activated in November of that year. The Fifteenth's primary mission was to bomb targets in the Balkans, Italy and especially Germany. Fifteenth Air Force commander Maj. Gen. James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle had arrived in Bari on December 1.
The Americans had championed daylight precision bombing, but the Eighth Air Force in England was suffering terrible casualties in order to prove the theory valid. Luftwaffe strength was increasing, not decreasing, over Germany. The Fifteenth Air Force was intended to take some of the pressure off the beleaguered Eighth.
 Bari Harbor
In addition to the usual war materiel, ships moored at Bari carried aviation fuel for Doolittle's bombers and other much-needed supplies. Selection of Bari as the Fifteenth Air Force headquarters--about 75 miles from the Fifteenth's primary airfields at Foggia--meant a large infusion of staff personnel. About 200 officers, 52 civilian technicians and several hundred enlisted men were being brought into the city.
Totally absorbed by the task of getting the Fifteenth Air Force off the ground, the Allies gave little thought to the possibility of a German air raid on Bari. The Luftwaffe in Italy was relatively weak and stretched so thin it could hardly mount a major effort. Or so Allied leaders believed.
German reconnaissance flights over Bari were seen as a nuisance. At first, British anti-aircraft batteries fired a half-hearted round or two, but eventually they ignored the German flights altogether. Why waste ammunition?
Responding to rumblings about lax security measures, British Air Vice Marshal Sir Arthur Coningham held a press conference on the afternoon of December 2 and assured reporters that the Luftwaffe was defeated in Italy. He was confident the Germans would never attack Bari. "I would regard it as a personal affront and insult," the air marshal haughtily declared, "if the Luftwaffe would attempt any significant action in this area."
Not everyone was so sure that the German air force was a broken reed. British army Captain A.B. Jenks, who was responsible for the port's defense, knew that preparations for an attack were woefully inadequate. But his voice, as well as those of one or two others, was drowned out by a chorus of complacent officers. When darkness came, Bari's docks were brilliantly lit so unloading of cargo could continue. Little thought was given to the need for a blackout.
In the harbor, cargo ships and tankers waited their turn to be unloaded. Captain Otto Heitmann, skipper of the Liberty ship SS John Bascom, went ashore to see if the process could be speeded up. He was disappointed in his quest, but he might have been even more concerned had he known what was aboard SS John Harvey.
 SS John Harvey
John Harvey, commanded by Captain Elwin F. Knowles, was a typical Liberty ship, scarcely different from the others moored in the harbor. Much of her cargo was also conventional: munitions, food and equipment. But the ship had a deadly secret cargo. Approximately 100 tons of mustard gas bombs were on board. The bombs were meant as a precaution, to be used only if the Germans resorted to chemical warfare.
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TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: 15thairforce; bari; freeperfoxhole; italy; luftwaffe; mustardgas; veterans; wwii
In 1943 there was a possibility that the Germans just might use poison gas. By that point in the war, the strategic initiative had passed to the Allies, and Germany was on the defensive on all fronts. Adolf Hitler's forces had sustained a major defeat at Stalingrad, and they had lost North Africa as well. The Allies were now on the Continent, slowly inching their way up the Italian peninsula.

JU-88 A4
Hitler, it was said, was not a great advocate of chemical warfare, perhaps because the Führer himself had been gassed during World War I. He was, however, ruthless and might be persuaded to use gas if he believed it would redress the strategic balance in his favor. Intelligence reports suggested that the Germans were stocking chemical weapons, including a new chemical agent called Tabun.
American President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued a policy statement condemning the use of gas by any civilized nation, but he pledged that the United States would reply in kind if the enemy dared to use such weapons first. John Harvey was selected to convey a shipment of poison gas to Italy to be held in reserve should such a situation occur.
When the mustard gas bombs were loaded aboard John Harvey, they looked deceptively conventional. Each bomb was 4 feet long, 8 inches in diameter and contained from 60 to 70 pounds of the chemical. Mustard is a blister gas that irritates the respiratory system and produces burns and raw ulcers on the skin. Victims exposed to the gas often suffer an agonizing death.
The poison gas shipment was shrouded in official secrecy. Even Knowles was not formally informed about the lethal cargo. Perceptive members of the crew, however, must have guessed the voyage was out of the ordinary. For one thing, 1st Lt. Howard D. Beckstrom of the 701st Chemical Maintenance Company was on board, along with a detachment of six men. All were expert in handling toxic materials and were obviously there for a purpose.
John Harvey crossed the Atlantic without incident, successfully running the gantlet of German submarines that still infested the ocean. After a stop at Oran, Algeria, the ship sailed to Augusta, Sicily, before proceeding to Bari. Lieutenant Thomas H. Richardson, the ship's cargo security officer, was one of the few people on board who officially knew about the mustard gas. His manifest clearly listed 2,000 M47A1 mustard gas bombs in the hold.
Richardson naturally wanted to unload the deadly cargo as soon as possible, but when the ship reached Bari on November 26, his hopes were dashed. The harbor was crammed with shipping, and another convoy was due shortly. Dozens of vessels were stacked up along the piers and jetties, each waiting its turn to be unloaded. Since the lethal gas was not officially on board, John Harvey was not about to be given special priority.
For the next five nerve-racking days, John Harvey rode peacefully at anchor at Pier 29 while Captain Knowles tried vainly to get British port officials to speed things up. This was difficult, because he was gagged by the secrecy that surrounded the gas shipment. How could he get officials to act when he was not even supposed to know that he was carrying the mustard gas in the first place?
While Knowles fretted, German reconnaissance pilot Hahn had returned to base. His positive report about conditions at Bari set in motion a raid that had been discussed and planned some time before. The Bari attack was the product of a planning session between Luftwaffe Field Marshal Albert Kesselring and his subordinates. The Allied airfields at Foggia were discussed as possible targets, but Luftwaffe resources were stretched too thin to permit the effective bombing of such a large complex of targets.
It was Field Marshal Wolfram von Richthofen, commander of Luftflotte 2, who suggested Bari as an alternative. A cousin of famed World War I ace Manfred von Richthofen, the field marshal was an experienced officer who had served in Poland and the Soviet Union as well as in the Battle of Britain. His advice, Kesselring knew, was sound. Richthofen believed that if the port was crippled, the British Eighth Army's advance might be slowed and the nascent Fifteenth Air Force's bomber offensive delayed. Richthofen told Kesselring that the only planes available for such a task were his Junkers Ju-88 A-4 bombers. With luck, he might scrape together 150 such planes for the raid.
When the strike force was mustered, there were only 105 Ju-88s available for the mission. But the element of surprise, coupled with an attack at dusk, might shift the odds in the Germans' favor. Most of the planes would come from Italy, but Richthofen purposely wanted to obfuscate matters by using a few Ju-88s from Yugoslavia. If the Allies thought the entire mission originated from there, they just might misdirect retaliatory strikes to the Balkans.
The Ju-88 pilots were ordered to fly their twin-engine bombers east to the Adriatic, then swing south and west. British anti-aircraft would probably expect an attack--if any--to come from the north, not from the west. The Ju-88s were also supplied with Duppel, thin strips of tinfoil cut to various lengths. The tinfoil registered like aircraft on radar screens, producing scores of phantom targets.
The aim of the German pilots was to arrive over Bari around 7:30 p.m. Parachute flares would be released first to light the way for the attacking aircraft, and the Ju-88s would come in low, trying to get under Allied radar that was already confused by the Duppel.
The Germans arrived at Bari on schedule. First Lieutenant Gustav Teuber, leading the first wave, could hardly believe his eyes. The docks were brilliantly lit; cranes stood out in sharp relief as they unloaded cargo from the ships' gaping holds, and the east jetty was packed with ships.
1
posted on
09/07/2005 9:09:00 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
To: snippy_about_it; radu; Victoria Delsoul; w_over_w; LaDivaLoca; TEXOKIE; cherry_bomb88; Bethbg79; ...
Scores of Ju-88s descended on Bari like gigantic birds of prey, their attack illuminated by the city's lights and German flares. The first bombs hit the city proper, great geysers of smoke and flame marking each detonation, but soon it was the harbor's turn. Some 30 vessels were riding at anchor that night, and each ship's crew had to respond to the emergency as best they could. Surprise was total, and some ships had to function without a full complement, since many sailors were on shore leave.
The German flares gave sailors the first inkling of the impending attack. Aboard John Bascom, the second officer, William Rudolf, saw the flashes and alerted Captain Heitmann. John Bascom's gun crew sprang into action, joining the barrage that shore batteries were now hurling into the sky. Tracer bullets laced the air, but the anti-aircraft fire was largely ineffective.
There was no time to cut anchor cables and get underway; crews along the east jetty watched helplessly while a creeping barrage of German bombs came ever closer to their vulnerable vessels. Joseph Wheeler took a direct hit and exploded into flames; John Motley took a bomb in its No. 5 hold. John Bascom, anchored next to John Motley, was next in line for punishment.
John Bascom shuddered under a rain of bombs that hit her from stem to stern. One of the explosions lifted Captain Heitmann off his feet and slammed him against the wheelhouse door. Momentarily stunned, his hands and face bloody, Heitmann saw the body of Nicholas Elgin sprawled nearby, blood pumping from a head wound, his clothes torn off by the force of the blast.
The ship's bridge was partly destroyed, the decks were buckled and debris was everywhere. There was nothing left to do but abandon ship. Ignoring his own wounds, Heitmann ordered the crew into the single undamaged lifeboat. By now, the entire harbor was a hell on earth, where yellow-orange flames leaped into the air, producing dense columns of acrid smoke. Ships were in various stages of burning or sinking. When flames reached munitions-laden holds, some exploded. The surface of the water was covered by a viscous scum of oil and fuel, blinding and choking those unlucky enough to be in the water.

Allied shipping burning at Bari, 3 December 1943
Meanwhile, the crew of John Harvey was engaged in a heroic battle to save their ship. The vessel still was intact and had sustained no direct bomb damage. Nevertheless, she had caught fire, and the situation was doubly dangerous with the mustard gas bombs aboard. Captain Knowles, Lieutenant Beckstrom and others on board refused to leave their posts, but their heroism was ultimately in vain.
Without warning, John Harvey blew up, disappearing in a huge, mushroom-shaped fireball that hurled pieces of the ship and her cargo hundreds of feet into the air. Everyone on board was killed instantly, and all over the harbor the force of the concussion knocked men off their feet. The blast sent out multihued fingers of smoke like a Fourth of July fireworks celebration and made the harbor as bright as day.
The men aboard USS Pumper, a tanker carrying aviation fuel, were witnesses to John Harvey's last moments. Air initially rushed into the vortex of the blast, then the concussion radiated out to knock the tanker 35 degrees to port.
Meanwhile, Heitmann and his surviving crew managed to reach the tip of the east jetty, around a lighthouse that was located at its north end. He had about 50 men. Many were badly wounded, and some were so badly burned that the slightest touch brought agony. At first the lighthouse area seemed a refuge, but it soon became apparent it was more of a deathtrap. A sea of flames cut Heitmann and his men off from following the jetty's long spine into the city, where they might have been relatively safe.
While the sailors waited to be rescued, Ensign K.K. Vesole, commander of John Bascom's armed guard detachment, was having difficulty breathing. Many of the other men were gasping, but it was Vesole who noted something strange about the smoke. "I smell garlic," he said, without realizing the implications of his remark. A garlic odor was a telltale sign of mustard gas. The gas had become liberally intermixed with the oil that floated in the harbor and lurked in the smoke that permeated the area.
Mustard gas-laced oil now coated the bodies of Allied seamen as they struggled in the water, and many swallowed the noxious mixture. Even those not in the water inhaled liberal doses of gas, as did hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Italian civilians. A launch dispatched from Pumper rescued Captain Heitmann and the other John Bascom survivors from the east jetty, but their troubles were just beginning.
The German raid began at 7:30 p.m. and ended 20 minutes later. German losses were very light, and they had succeeded beyond their most sanguine expectations. Seventeen Allied ships were sunk and another eight were damaged, causing Bari to be dubbed the "second Pearl Harbor." The Americans sustained the highest losses, losing the Liberty ships John Bascom, John L. Motley, Joseph Wheeler, Samuel J. Tilden and John Harvey. The British lost four ships, the Italians three, the Norwegians three and the Poles two.
The next morning survivors woke to a scene of utter devastation. Large parts of Bari had been reduced to rubble, particularly the medieval old town. Portions of the city and the harbor were still burning, and a thick pall of black smoke hung in the sky. There were more than 1,000 military and merchant marine casualties; about 800 were admitted to local hospitals. The full extent of civilian casualties may never be known. Conservative estimates hover around 1,000, though there were probably more.
Additional Sources: www.luftarchiv.de
www.garantialisveris.com
www.luftwaffepics.com
www.vnh.org
www.vectorsite.net
www.rsa.org.nz
www.armed-guard.com
www.450thbg.com
www.la-piazza.it
www.daveswarbirds.com
2
posted on
09/07/2005 9:09:59 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(Australian beer is made out of kangaroo hops)
To: All
Fortunately, Bari was the site of several Allied military hospitals and related support facilities. Some were housed at the Bari Polyclinic, built by Mussolini as a showcase of Fascist health care. The Polyclinic was home to the 98th British General Hospital and the 3rd New Zealand Hospital, among others. Those facilities received many of the mustard gas victims that began to appear.
Casualties from the raid began pouring in until the hospitals were filled to overflowing. Almost immediately some of the wounded began to complain of "gritty" eyes, and their condition worsened in spite of conventional treatment. Their eyes were swollen, and skin lesions began to appear. Swamped with wounded of all descriptions and still not realizing they were dealing with poison gas, hospital staffers allowed victims to remain in their oil-and-gas-soaked clothes for long periods.
Not only were the victims severely burned and blistered from prolonged exposure, but their respiratory systems were also badly irritated. The mustard gas casualties were wracked with coughs and had real difficulty breathing, but the hospital staff seemed helpless in the face of this unknown ailment. Men started to die, and even those who did recover faced a long and painful convalescence. Temporary blindness, the agony of burns and a terrible swelling of the genitals produced both physical and mental anguish.
As the victims began to die, the doctors started to suspect that some kind of chemical agent was involved. Some physicians pointed fingers at the Germans, speculating that they had resorted to chemical warfare after all. A message was sent to Allied headquarters in Algiers informing Deputy Surgeon General Fred Blesse that patients were dying of a "mysterious malady." To solve the mystery, Blesse dispatched Lt. Col. Stewart Francis Alexander, an expert on chemical warfare medicine, to Bari.
Alexander examined the patients and interviewed them when appropriate. It was beginning to look like mustard gas exposure, but the doctor was not sure. His suspicions were confirmed when a bomb-casing fragment was recovered from the bottom of the harbor. The fragment was identified as an American M47A1 bomb, which was designated for possible delivery of mustard gas. The Germans could be eliminated as suspects; in this case, the Allies were to blame.
Alexander still did not know where the mustard bombs had originated. The doctor tallied the number of mustard deaths in each ship, then plotted the position of the ships in the harbor. Most of the victims came from ships anchored near John Harvey. British port authorities finally admitted off the record that they knew John Harvey was carrying poison gas. Alexander drew up a report detailing his findings, which was approved by Allied Supreme Commander General Dwight D. Eisenhower.
Secrecy still dogged the whole affair, however. Eventually, the British and American people were told of the devastating Bari raid, but the part played by mustard gas was kept from them. British Prime Minister Winston S. Churchill was particularly adamant that this aspect of the tragedy remain a secret. It was embarrassing enough that the raid occurred at a port under British jurisdiction. Churchill believed that publicizing the fiasco would hand the Germans a propaganda coup.
Although the gas was mentioned in official American records, Churchill insisted British medical records be purged and mustard gas deaths listed as the result of "burns due to enemy action." Churchill's attempts at secrecy may have caused more deaths, because had the word gone out, more victims, especially Italian civilians, might have sought proper treatment. Axis Sally, the infamous propaganda broadcaster, learned the truth and taunted the Allies. "I see you boys are getting gassed by your own poison gas," she sneered.
There were 628 mustard gas casualties among Allied military and merchant marine personnel. Of these, 69 died within two weeks. Most victims, however, like Captain Heitmann of John Bascom, fully recovered. But the figures do not include the uncounted Italian civilians who must have been exposed to the deadly chemical. There was a mass exodus of civilians out of the city after the raid. Some were probably gas victims who died for want of proper treatment.
The deaths and injuries were terrible tragedies, but Bari was a strategic disaster as well. The port was completely closed for three full weeks after the terrible incident. On January 12, 1944, General Mark Clark's Fifth Army launched an offensive, part of an overall push that included the Anglo-American landings at Anzio some days later. Elements of the Fifth Army crossed the Rapido River and established a bridgehead, only to be forced to withdraw due to lack of supplies. Bad weather was the official cause of the supply problems, but the closing of Bari was probably a major factor.
The Fifteenth Air Force suffered setbacks as well because of the German success at Bari. Just two days after the raid, the Fifteenth had been scheduled to act in concert with the Eighth Air Force in a combined offensive against Germany. The Bari raid sharply curtailed the Fifteenth's participation in that offensive. In fact, the Fifteenth Air Force did not make a major contribution to the war until after February 1944.
The Bari raid was a twofold disaster. On one hand, it was truly a second Pearl Harbor, one of the most notable Luftwaffe exploits of the war. But it was also the only poison gas incident of World War II, a tragedy made worse by the perceived exigencies of wartime secrecy.
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3
posted on
09/07/2005 9:10:32 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(Australian beer is made out of kangaroo hops)
To: All

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4
posted on
09/07/2005 9:10:53 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(Australian beer is made out of kangaroo hops)
To: Allen H; Colonial Warrior; texianyankee; vox_PL; Bigturbowski; ruoflaw; Bombardier; Steelerfan; ...

"FALL IN" to the FReeper Foxhole!

Good Thursday Morning Everyone.
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5
posted on
09/07/2005 9:26:46 PM PDT
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: SAMWolf
Wolfram Von Richtofen made his bones with the Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War. By the time of Case White, he was acknowledged as the German expert on dive bombing and close air support.I believe it was his units that supported Guderian's attack across the Meuse at Sedan in 194o. He commanded Fliegerkorps VIII on the Eastern Front, and was the front line Luftwaffe commander during the Stalingrad operation. He argued against trying to support the 6th Army by air when it was encircled, and then served in the Med. A critic of the Army's over reliance on air support, he coined the phrase "They want my dive bombers when they could throw grenades"
I believe the Allies had mustard gas on ships off the Normandy coast on D-Day, in case the Germans used gas to repel the attack. Luckily, the Luftwaffe failed to show up in any force, and the ships weren't hit.
Richtofen developed an inoperable brain tumor, and was retired in 1944. He died before the end of the war
6
posted on
09/07/2005 9:35:08 PM PDT
by
PzLdr
("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
To: PzLdr
OK, here comes---its Bush's fault...........(sorry)
7
posted on
09/07/2005 9:59:08 PM PDT
by
wildcatf4f3
(Purge the land of Leftists and deadbeats)
To: SAMWolf
But it was also the only poison gas incident of World War III'm not sure about that one. I guess it depends on what one means by "World War II". The Italians used gas against Ethiopia, and I think the Japanese used it in China.
8
posted on
09/07/2005 10:03:11 PM PDT
by
PAR35
To: PzLdr
Wolfram von Richthofen was a distant cousin of the late Manfred von Richthofen and one of only a few select officers in the Luftwaffe to have attained the highest rank of Generalfeldmarschall.
9
posted on
09/07/2005 10:04:16 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(Australian beer is made out of kangaroo hops)
To: PAR35
Ony if you count the "offical" start of WWII as Sep. 1st 1939. ;-)
10
posted on
09/07/2005 10:06:19 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(Australian beer is made out of kangaroo hops)
To: wildcatf4f3
LOL! Why not, he seems to get the blame for everything else.
11
posted on
09/07/2005 10:08:42 PM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(Australian beer is made out of kangaroo hops)
To: SAMWolf
Well if Bush hadn't been screwing around in the Pacific he could have shot all those Germans down or something.
12
posted on
09/07/2005 10:22:44 PM PDT
by
U S Army EOD
(LET ME KNOW WHERE HANOI JANE FONDA IS WHEN SHE TOURS)
To: SAMWolf
Very interesting!
But Like the first. It was not really a surprise.
Currently one of the books Im reading is:
Reflections of Pearl Harbor
An Oral History of December 7, 1941
K. D. Richardson
2005
http://www.greenwood.com/books/BookDetail.asp?sku=C8516
160 personal narratives that describe a day in the life of America; that day was December 7, 1941.
This collection of memories, told in participants' own words, gathers accounts from both military and civilians, children and adults, people of many ethnic backgrounds, from all over of the United States. Together, these ordinary Americans paint a portrait of a nation
stunned,
One of the most interesting so far. Is one from a Marine by the name of Ernest M. Phillips on the heavy cruiser Northampton.
In Dec. He was with Task Force 16. Delivering a Marine squadron of fighter planes off the Enterprise to Wake Island. using his words:
We had heard the Japanese were holding maneuvers around the island. I saw a dispatch that said if we went there they thought the Japanese would leave. However they really
didnt leave, they just followed us to Pearl Harbor
If this is correct. The Japanese fleet was not as lost as we have been told.
Two other interesting things he says are:
They were due to tie up at Pearl on Dec. 6th. But were delayed in getting there and could not enter the harbor because the sub nets were in place. And were told to wait to 10 am on the 7th to enter.
As they were maneuvering around. Waiting for 10 am. some of the ships began making sub contacts. As they radioed these in. The Admiral was very put out. That they were making contacts were there shouldnt be. And radioed back.
You are in error. We do not have any submarines in the area, Please instruct you operators on the proper use of there equipment.
The other thing is he states is the Japanese put 27 torps. into the Utah. Because the Enterprise was slated to be tied up next to it.
Seem like they had good Intel. Just not current enough.
To: SAMWolf
Gas as we know it was first used on the western front at Ypres in 1915 (it had been first used on the eastern front) when the German Army released chlorine gas, which suffocates. The gas caused great terror. The chlorine was deployed from steel cylinders and blown by the wind.
The race was on to who could make the most effective gas and delivery system. Masks were naturally introduced right away so the next step was developing gases that would penetrate these masks. Masks and other protective gear changed very rapidly, new stuff coming weekly at times, even daily.
In 1917 the Germans developed an agent which could get through all masks and clothing, boots, even rubber protective gear. It was not a gas, but more like a light oil, toxic usually through the skin or, when vaporised, through the eyes and lungs. It stayed active for weeks, slowly turning into vapor from a liquid. It was called mustard gas because of it's smell.
Mustard was difficult to detect, it penetrated anything, it vaporised relatively easily depending on the weather conditions or could form fogs. It was easy to handle and deliver.
Mustard had it's worst effect on moist areas of the body, eyes, pulmonary and gastric systems, armpits, groin, etc. Blistering of the skin would start several hours to several days after exposure. The mildest reaction would be reddening and itching, but the worst ones would be large blisters that became gangrenous. The greater the exposure the greater the reaction.
The eye's were the most likely to be damaged, we have all seen the pictures of men with bandaged eyes walking in lines with a hand on the next man's shoulder. After exposure the first symptom would usually be irritation of the eyes, as if some foreign object were in them. Then the eye lids would swell forcing the eyes to close and the conjunctiva in the eyes to swell ("Pink eye" is minor conjuncivitis). The eyelid would burn and get cramp. The eyes would become very sensitive to light. The vision would then be lost as the cornea becomes ulcerated and decayed.
The effect on the eye's was gross but not fatal. The effects on the respiratory tract were worse and life threatening. After the eyes the breathing passages became irritated with an urge to cough, by difficulty in swallowing, and by a shortness of breath. The inner passages of the respiratory tract became inflamed. The gums would develop dead tissue and the surface layers of the breathing tubes and lungs die. Bronchitis would follow with a tightening of the throat, then pneumonia with bleeding and steadily increasing tissue death, and the airways would eventually block and the victim suffocate. There were two peaks of death occurring, day 3 and day 8. If you survived your lungs would be "Completely Knackered".
Other organs could also be damaged like the digestive system, causing sickness, diarrhea and bowel damage, disabling and not killing.
Mustard injuries left men open to diseases such as TB and pneumonia. Mustard is also a strong carcinogen. Very destructive to long term health.
Excelllent CDC piece on Mustard
Very excellent CDC piece on toxic materials in general The Italians so worried about in the story about Bari were probably not very exposed, if at all, to the mustard. The agent is extremly soluable in the fuel oil covering the water of the harbor and should have been trapped there. Most GIs hurt by mustard had been pulled out of the water, covered with oil, and the oil was contaminated with a small (parts per million) concentration of mustard. In warm weather (looks to be in the 80's by the clothing) mustard decays pretty quickly in water. Should be undetectable in a week or two.
14
posted on
09/08/2005 2:20:07 AM PDT
by
Iris7
("A pig's gotta fly." - Porco Rosso)
To: snippy_about_it
Good morning, snippy and everyone at the Freper Foxhole.
15
posted on
09/08/2005 3:03:13 AM PDT
by
E.G.C.
To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy, Sam and every one.
16
posted on
09/08/2005 4:00:37 AM PDT
by
GailA
(Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
To: snippy_about_it; All
Good Thursday morning to everyone.
Interesting read on what happened at Bari. I never even heard of that event. Thanks for the education.
To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All
| September 8, 2005
A Helping Hand
|
|
To him who is afflicted, kindness should be shown by his friend. Job 6:14
A college student named Kelly shattered her arm in the first volleyball game of the season. This meant she couldn't work at her part-time job. Then her car stopped running. To top it all off, the young man she had been dating stopped calling. Kelly felt so low that she began spending hours alone in her room crying.
Laura, a Christian friend on the volleyball team, became concerned about Kelly and decided to help her. So she planned a party. She and some friends collected money, and a couple of guys got Kelly's car running again. They found a temporary job she could do, using just one hand. And they gave her tickets to see her basketball hero when his team came to town. Before long, Kelly was herself again. When she asked why they did all this for her, Laura was able to tell her about the love of Jesus.
Kelly's story reminds me of the paralyzed man who was healed by Jesus. The afflicted man's friends cared enough about him to bring him to the Savior (Luke 5:17-26).
Do you have a friend in need? Think of some ways you can help. Show the love of Christ and then share the gospel. You never know what might happen when you lend a helping hand. Dave Egner
Reach out in Jesus' name
With hands of love and care
To those who are in need
And caught in life's despair. Sper
Real love puts actions to good intentions.
FOR FURTHER STUDY
The Compassion Of Jesus
What Is Real Love?
18
posted on
09/08/2005 5:08:55 AM PDT
by
The Mayor
( Pray as if everything depends on God; work as if everything depends on you.)
To: SAMWolf
God, I had no idea this happened, Mustard gas. No way to die.
Thanks Sam.
19
posted on
09/08/2005 5:14:58 AM PDT
by
The Mayor
( Pray as if everything depends on God; work as if everything depends on you.)
To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All
Good Morning Bump For the Freeper Foxhole
Regards
alfa6 ;>}
20
posted on
09/08/2005 5:23:24 AM PDT
by
alfa6
(BLOAT)
To: snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise; Peanut Gallery; Wneighbor
Good morning ladies. Flag-o-Gram.
21
posted on
09/08/2005 5:37:24 AM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: PAR35
I also recall a claim that the Germans used poison gas in a limited manner during the siege of Sevastopol in 1942 - probably to clear underground bunkers. I don't recall any details.
To: Professional Engineer
Is tha a black widow? Saw one at Wright Pat one time, but I did not know any were flying.
To: SAMWolf
On This Day In History
Birthdates which occurred on September 08:
1157 Richard I [Richard the Lion Hearted], King of England (1189-99)
1207 Sancho II, king of Portugal
1821 Henry Baxter, Bvt Major General (Union volunteers), died in 1873
1828 Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, Bvt Major General, Medal of Honor (Union volunteers, 20th Maine), hero of Little Round Top at Gettysburg
1829 George Crook, Major General (Union volunteers), died in 1890
1829 Seth Maxwell Barton, Brig General (Confederate Army), died in 1900
1841 Antonin Dvorak Nelahozeves, Czech, composer (New World Symphony)
1873 David O McKay Huntsville, Utah, 9th pres of Mormon church
1889 Robert A Taft (Sen-R-Ohio, Taft-Hartley Act)(Mr. Republican)
1897 Jimmie Rodgers Meridian Miss, country singer/singing brakeman (In The Jailhouse, "Blue Yodel No. 8" (Muleskinner Blues), Peach Pickin' Time Down in Georgia)
http://www.jimmierodgers.com/home.html
1907 Leon Askin Vienna Austria, actor (Gen. Burkhalter, Hogans Hero's)
1922 Lyndon LaRouche American presidental candidate/worldclass nutcase (1980)
1922 Sid Caesar Yonkers NY, comedian (Your Show of Shows)
1925 Peter Sellers England, actor (not now, Kato, Bobo, Pink Panther, Being There)
1932 Patsy Cline Va, country singer (Walkin' After Midnight)
1937 Virna Lisi Italy, actress (Assault on a Queen, Bluebeard)
1938 Sam Nunn (Sen-D-Ga, Sec. Defence)
1940 Willie Tyler Red Level Ala, ventriloquist (Lester)
1941 Alan Feinstein NYC, actor (Max-Berrengers, Family Tree)
1945 Jose Feliciano, singer/songwriter/guitarist, Lares, Puerto Rico.
1948 Great Kabuki, [Akihisa Yone Yoshi Mera], wrestler (NWA/NJPW/WAR/SWS)
1951 Randy T Odle, Port Arthur Texas, astronaut
1957 Heather Thomas Greenwich Ct, actress (Jody-Fall Guy, Coed Fever)
1964 Steffan Peters, equestrian dressage (Olympics-bronze-96)
1981 Jonathan Taylor Thomas, Bethlehem PA, actor (Randy-Home Improvement)
Deaths which occurred on September 08:
0394 Arbogast, Frankish warleader, commits suicide
0701 Sergius I, Syrian/Italian Pope (687-701), dies
1100 Clement III 1st antipope (1084-1100), dies (birth date unknown)
1654 Peter Claver, Spanish saint (baptized 300,000 slaves), dies
1888 Annie Chapman, second victim of London serial killer "Jack the Ripper."
1895 Adam Opel, German manufacturer (motorcars), dies at 58
1933 Faisal I ibn Hussein ibn Ali, 1st king of Iraq/Syria, dies at 50
1935 Huey P "Kingfisher" Long (Sen-La) assassinated at Baton Rouge Capitol building
1949 Richard Strauss, German composer, dies at 85
1935 Carl Austin Weiss, murderer of Sen Huey Long, shot down
1951 Jurgen Stroop, Nazi exterminator of Warsaw Ghetto, hanged on site of the ghetto
1969 Bud Collyer TV emcee (Beat the Clock, To Tell the Truth), dies at 61
1977 Zero [Samuel J] Mostel, US actor (The Producers, A Funny Thing Happened On The Way Too The Forum), dies at 62
1979 Jean Seberg actress, dies at 40
1981 Roy Wilkins longtime executive director of NAACP, dies at 80
1991 Alex North music composer (Spartacus), dies at 80 of cancer
1993 Zaki Naguib Mahmoud, Egyptian philosopher/author/diplomat, dies at 88
1995 Olga Ivinskaya, mistress of Boris Pasternak, dies of cancer at 83
1999 Economist Herbert Stein, who served as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers in the Nixon administration, died in Washington DC at age 83. (Ben Stein's father)
Take A Moment To Remember
GWOT Casualties
Iraq
08-Sep-2004 4 | US: 4 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Private 1st Class Jason L. Sparks Fallujah - Anbar Hostile - hostile fire
US Specialist Michael A. Martinez Baqubah (near) - Diyala Non-hostile - vehicle accident
US Sergeant James Daniel Faulkner Baghdad (eastern part) Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US Specialist Lauro G. DeLeon Jr. Balad (near) - Salah ad Din Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Afghanistan
A GOOD DAY
http://icasualties.org/oif/ Data research by Pat Kneisler
Designed and maintained by Michael White
//////////
Go here and I'll stop nagging.
http://soldiersangels.org/heroes/index.php
On this day...
1380 Russians defeat Tatars at Kulikovo, beginning decline of Tatars
1504 Michelangelo's 13-foot marble statue of David is unveiled in Florence, Italy.
1529 The Ottoman Sultan Suleiman re-enters Buda and establishes John Zapolyai as the puppet king of Hungary.
1553 City of Lichfield, England established
1565 1st permanent settlement in US established Pedro Menendez de Aviles establishes settlement on the site of the Timucuan Indian village of Seloy. (St Augustine Fla.)
1565 Turkish siege of Malta broken by Maltese & Knights of St John
1628 Bay of Matanzas Cuba: Piet Heyn captures Spanish silver fleet
1636 First college founded in America, Harvard College, originally called Cambridge College(Named for Reverend John Harvard)
1755 Battle of Lake George, NY British defeat the French
1760 French surrendered the city of Montreal to British Gen. Jeffrey Amherst
1771 Mission San Gabriel Archangel forms in California
1796 Battle of Bassano-French beat Austrians
1847 US under Gen Scott defeat Mexicans at Battle of Molino del Rey
1858 Lincoln makes a speech about when you can fool people
1863 47 Texas volunteers repel Federal invasion force at Sabine Pass, TX
1863 Federal troops reconquer the Cumberland Gap, Tennessee
1864 George McClellan accepts nomination as Democratic candidate for President
1868 NY Athletic Club formed
1883 Northern Pacific RR's last spike driven at Independence Creek, Mont
1883 NY Giants score 13 runs in an inning against the Phillies
1892 1st appearance of "The Pledge of Allegiance" (Youth's Companion)
1900 6,000 killed when a hurricane & tidal wave destroys Galveston, Texas, most deadly in US history
1903 Between 30,000 and 50,000 Bulgarian men, women and children are massacred in Monastir by Turkish troops seeking to check a threatened Macedonian uprising.
1920 US Air Mail service begins (NYC to SF)
1921 1st Miss America crowned (Margaret Gorman of Washington DC)
1924 Alexandra Kollontai of Russia becomes 1st woman ambassador
1930 Richard Drew creates Scotch tape
1930 1st appearance of the comic strip "Blondie"
1930 NYC public schools begin teaching Hebrew
1939 FDR declares "limited national emergency" due to war in Europe
1939 Yanks beat Red Sox 4-1 in 7, game called because of lightning
1939 Gen Von Reichenaus pantzer division reaches suburbs of Warsaw
1941 Entire Jewish community of Meretsch, Lithuania is exterminated
1941 Siege of Leningrad (St Petersburg) by Germany begins
1943 Italy surrenders to the allies in WW II
1944 1st V-2 rockets land in London and Antwerp
1944 Russians march into Bulgaria; Bulgaria declares war on Germany
1945 US invades Japanese-held Korea
1945 Korea is partitioned by the Soviet Union and the United States.
1948 British De Havilland 08-fighter flies faster than sound
1951 Japan signs treaty of peace with 48 countries (SF)
1952 Ernest Hemingway's "Old Man & the Sea" published
1954 SE Asia Treaty Org (SEATO) formed to stop communist spread in SE Asia
1954 With a 3-2 count, Phillies Richie Ashburn fouls next 14 pitches, then walks (never give up)
1955 Earliest clinching of an NL pennant (Brooklyn Dodgers)
1956 Harry Belafonte's album "Calypso," goes to #1 & stays #1 for 31 weeks
1957 Pope Pius XII encyclical On motion pictures, radio, TV
1960 NASAs Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., dedicated by President Dwight D. Eisenhower
1960 Penguin Books in Britain is charged with obscenity for trying to publish the D.H. Lawrence novel Lady Chatterly's Lover.
1963 Ines Cuervo de Priete, 34, gives birth to quintuplets, all boys
1965 Hurricane Betsy kills 75 in Louisiana & Florida
1965 KC A's Bert Campaneris plays all 9 positions in a game
1966 "That Girl" starring Marlo Thomas premiers on ABC-TV
1967 Surveyor 5 launched; makes soft landing on Moon Sept 10
1967 Uganda abolishes traditional tribal kingdoms, becomes a republic
1971 John F Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts opens in Washington DC
1972 Chic Cub Ferguson Jenkins wins his 20th game for 6th straight year
1973 1st all Australian women's US Open final, (Court beats Goolagong)
1973 Billy Martin named manager of the Texas Rangers
1973 Hank Aaron sets record of most HRs in 1 league (709)
1974 President Gerald Ford pardons former President Nixon of all federal crimes
1974 Evel Knievel attempts to jump the Snake River Canyon in Idaho on his rocket-powered motorcycle. He failed and parachuted down
1975 Boston begins court ordered busing of public schools
1977 Interpol sends a resolution concerning video piracy
1978 2nd game of the Boston Massacre; Yanks beat Red Sox 13-2
1983 NASA launches RCA-6
1984 Challenger moves to Vandenberg AFB for mating of STS 41G mission
1985 "USA Weekend's" 1st issue, appears in 255 newspapers
1985 Alayson Gibbons sets 24 hr women swim record of 42.05 mi in 25 m pool
1985 Pete Rose ties Ty Cobb with 4,191 hits
1988 Javier Sotomayer of Cuba high jumps world record 2.43 m (7' 11")
1989 Mausoleum of Beatrice of Brabant (1288) discovered in Kortrijk Belgium
1990 Ellis Island Historical Site opens on Eliis Island, NYC
1991 Buffalo Bill Jim Kelly passes for 6 touchdowns vs Pitts (52-34)
1994 Last US, British and French troops leave West-Berlin
1997 America Online Inc. (AOL) takes over Compuserve
1998 Mark McGwire hits his 62nd home run off Chicago Cubs pitcher Steve Trachsel in St. Louis and brakes the 1961 record set by Roger Maris
2000 US Bureau of Indian Affairs markes its 175th birthday and Kevin Grover, head of the bureau, offeres a formal apology to American Indians for the misdeeds of the agency that included massacres, forced relocations of tribes and attempts to wipe out Indian cultures.
2000 The UN Millennium Summit ends in NYC with the adoption of an 8-page plan, the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) to cure the worlds direst problems. Pledges were made to halve the proportion of people in poverty, to reverse the spread of AIDS, and to strengthen the UNs ability to keep peace.
(Now don't you feel better? I know I sure do. It gives me a warm feeling all over just to know that the UN is on the job!)
2001 UN World Conference on Racism ended and agreed to condemn the barbarism of the slave trade, proposed an aid package for Africa, recognized Palestinian rights and Israeli security concerns, opposed bias against ethnic minorities, refugees, indigenous peoples and women.
(I have nothing too say)
2004 Terrorist kidnap the family of an Iraqi National Guard officer and set fire to his home northeast of the capital
Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"
Andorra : National Day
Guinea-Bissau : Independence Day (1974)
Lichfield, England : Sheriff's Ride Ceremony (1533)
Malta : Commemoration of Regatta Day/Commemoration of 2 Sieges (1565)
North Korea : National Day (Established Govt) (1948)
South Korea : Thanksgiving Day
Uganda : Republic Day (1967)
Fall TV Series Flop Prediction Day
Kiss a Bald Head Week (Day 5)
National Boss Day/Employee Exchange Day
National Papaya Month
Religious Observances
RC-Vatican City : Mary's Nativity, birthday of Blessed Virgin Mary
Feast of St. Gorgonius, martyr.
Feast of Saint Peter Claver
Religious History
0070 Following a six-month siege, Jerusalem surrendered to the 60,000 troops of Titus' Roman army. Over a million Jewish citizens perished in the siege and, following the city's capture, another 97,000 were sold into slavery.
1565 The parish of St. Augustine, Florida, was founded by Father Don Martin Francisco Lopez de Mendozo Grajales, chaplain to the conquering Spanish forces. It became the first and oldest Roman Catholic parish established in America.
1636 Harvard College (later University) was founded by the Massachusetts Puritans at New Towne. It was the first institution of higher learning established in North America, and was originally founded to train future ministers.
1845 Oxford Movement leader, John Henry Newman, 44, resigned from the Church of England -- convinced that it had severed itself from its ancient episcopal moorings and true apostolic succession -- and became a Roman Catholic.
1928 Pius XI issued the encyclical "Rerum Orientalium," promoting study of the history, doctrine and liturgy of Eastern Orthodoxy. He recommended that priests apply themselves to special studies at the Oriental Institute in Rome, founded in 1917 by Benedict XV.
Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.
Police Recruit Has Hand in His Own Arrest
WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) - A New Zealand police recruit has had a hand in his own arrest for an unsolved assault. As part of a training exercise in fingerprinting at the Royal New Zealand Police College, the recruit gave his prints - and they matched him to an arrest warrant for a serious assault, Wellington's Dominion Post newspaper reported Wednesday.
He was arrested late last week and will appear in court later this week, the paper reported.
Training commander, Superintendent Alistair Beckett, said the recruit, whose name was not reported, had managed to slip through rigorous screening of potential recruits.
"By and large, the people we get are top of the line, top drawer. They normally don't have things from the past they want to hide," he was quoted saying.
But the police are not taking any chances that others might try to fool the system. Starting from October, all recruit applicants will be fingerprinted before they are given training, Beckett said.
Thought for the day :
"The guy who invented the first wheel was an idiot. The guy who invented the other three, -he- was a genius."
Sid Caesar
24
posted on
09/08/2005 6:31:43 AM PDT
by
Valin
(The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
To: Steelerfan
25
posted on
09/08/2005 6:44:11 AM PDT
by
Valin
(The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
To: The Mayor
| |
| 
Good morning, MAYOR!! Good morning, EVERYBODY! 

 |
|
26
posted on
09/08/2005 6:52:24 AM PDT
by
tomkow6
(~ www.ProudPatriots.org ~ Serving Those Who Serve Us ~ ...)
To: tomkow6
Mornin Tom, thanks for the huge greeting!
27
posted on
09/08/2005 7:00:51 AM PDT
by
The Mayor
( Pray as if everything depends on God; work as if everything depends on you.)
To: Valin
To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Professional Engineer; alfa6; radu; Wneighbor; All

Good morning everyone.
To: Steelerfan
30
posted on
09/08/2005 8:29:59 AM PDT
by
Valin
(The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
To: Professional Engineer
Looks like an A-26 to me.
31
posted on
09/08/2005 10:15:30 AM PDT
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: All
Microsft plans to release one critial update for Windows along with the September Verions of the Malicious Software Removal Tool on Tuesday.
If you use Windows be sure to download those updates.
32
posted on
09/08/2005 10:40:55 AM PDT
by
E.G.C.
To: SAMWolf
it was truly a second Pearl Harbor, one of the most notable Luftwaffe exploits of the warThanks Sam, I knew nothing of this incident.
33
posted on
09/08/2005 10:41:35 AM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: Steelerfan
It's a Confederate Air Force A-26 flying supplies into Louisiana.
34
posted on
09/08/2005 10:43:38 AM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: Valin
1380 Russians defeat Tatars at Kulikovo, beginning decline of Tatars Beating taters doesn't seem that hard...
35
posted on
09/08/2005 10:48:33 AM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: bentfeather
36
posted on
09/08/2005 10:52:10 AM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: snippy_about_it
37
posted on
09/08/2005 10:52:33 AM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: Valin
The little hump on the back (thought it was a gun turret) and paint job threw me. Having now looked a picture of a P-61 up on the web, I am embarrassed to have suggested it.
Oh, well time a remedial trip to the Air Force Museum for me.
To: SAMWolf
Good afternoon everyone.
Thanks for a great read Sam.
39
posted on
09/08/2005 12:53:44 PM PDT
by
USMCBOMBGUY
(You build it, I'll defeat it!)
To: Professional Engineer; Peanut Gallery; bentfeather; snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Samwise
To: Steelerfan
41
posted on
09/08/2005 2:54:24 PM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: Wneighbor
42
posted on
09/08/2005 2:54:41 PM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: Professional Engineer
And any excuse to hit the museum is a good excuse.
To: Steelerfan
44
posted on
09/08/2005 3:33:22 PM PDT
by
Professional Engineer
(As an Engineer, you too can learn to calculate the power of the Dark Side.)
To: Wneighbor; All
Howdy everyone. Busy, busy. Now if that would just translate into customers. LOL. Everyone is busy with back to school stuff!
45
posted on
09/08/2005 5:47:11 PM PDT
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: quietolong
...a Marine by the name of Ernest M. Phillips on the heavy cruiser Northampton. No offense to the Marines, but if you think a ship's company Marine knew what the ship was really doing in the pre-war Navy, you don't know crap about the Navy. Even now, I could go to the smoke deck tomorrow and start the most absolutely stupid rumor about what the ship is going to be doing and it would be everywhere by lunch. If they don't know otherwise, then it's the truth to them, but it doesn't mean it's true.
But were delayed in getting there and could not enter the harbor because the sub nets were in place
The delay in the arrival of the ENTERPRISE group due to bad weather has been well documented for years. It had nothing to do with submarine nets. Do you really think we had nets with no way of moving them when we needed to? Give me a break.
The other thing is he states is the Japanese put 27 torps. into the Utah.
The idiocy of this statement is not even worth commenting on. Forget about the conspiracies, try reading a real history of Pearl Harbor like Prange's "At Dawn We Slept", or at least realize that especially when you are reading an oral history, just because they said it doesn't mean it's right.
46
posted on
09/08/2005 7:51:45 PM PDT
by
GATOR NAVY
(Back at sea on my sixth gator)
To: Steelerfan
Oh, well time a remedial trip to the Air Force Museum for me.
Tough it out big guy! You can do it.
47
posted on
09/08/2005 9:11:19 PM PDT
by
Valin
(The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
To: GATOR NAVY
Hmm I guess that funny looking Crow I had on my sleeve for over ten years was just for show.
Were you there? Why wouldnt a ship's company Marine know whats happening? What are some of the things Marines aboard a ship of this type use for?
Maybe things like courier duty or walking around with the Captain making him look important. (Captains guard)
Its his story. And he doesnt say what duties were. But I think a Marine assigned to a cruiser. Would have a better chance of knowing whats going on that most of the ship's company.
If you want his full story. Get the book and read it. But if you must know the reason he gives for the Northampton being delayed. Is they were conducting carrier towing exercise with the Enterprise And later refueling Destroyers in rough seas.
An aft line parted and fouled there screws. So they had to send divers over the side to unravel the mess
And yes I can see a dispatcher telling them to delay entry to the next day instead of opening the nets at night.
OK you tell us were was the Enterprise due to tie-up.
Japanese pilots were ordered to ignore the UTAH.
Yes I have read those other books. And just because there the big official book dont mean everything there is the gospel truth.
If you take the time. You will find out you can learn more about history thru oral historys Than the official storys.
Yes they can contain errors too. But put together with others and the official ones. A more accurate picture emerges.
There are other accounts that backup what he says.
http://www.lkwdpl.org/lore/lore45.htm
http://www.chiseledincloth.com/cgi/YaBB.pl?board=nora_cat;action=display;num=1091630730
You just may not have the whole story of why the Enterprise was late.
http://www.chiseledincloth.com/NHamptonnavigation.html
To: quietolong
If you had a crow for ten years then you know exactly what I mean when I said I could start the stupidest rumor and get it believed. And this is now, when the crew is generally much more informed of what is going on. The gulf between the crew and officers in those days was far greater than it is now, and the enlisted were far more in the dark about what was really happening. What happens then? They guess and speculate, but that doesn't mean it's the truth.
Re the UTAH. Yes, that was ENTERPRISES' normal berth and yes the Japanese were without a doubt going to look there. But just think about the number this guy throws out. 27 torpedoes? To believe that means one either says the Japanese were unable to tell UTAH was not ENTERPRISE or that they continued to throw ordnance into in an already sunk ship. The UTAH took 2 torpedoes and capsized in 10 minutes.
49
posted on
09/09/2005 2:54:36 PM PDT
by
GATOR NAVY
(Back at sea on my sixth gator)
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