The FReeper Foxhole Remembers George Washington: Hero of the Confederacy? - Sep.19th, 2005

American History Magazine | October 2004 | William F. B. Vodrey

[Professional Engineer]

Because someone wants to give you lots of options for lunches and snacks? ~grin~

We have a couple of folks who keep the fridge jammed with condiments of various types . No good stuff. It just doesn't allow anyone to bring lunch in and keep it cold.

[Professional Engineer]

Ooo, I've heard about that trilogy. Gonna have to read it too.

[Professional Engineer]

You'll really like Gettysburg.

That was the feeling I had as well.

[Valin]

I was disappointed in Gods and Generals.

Ditto. They tried to do to much. Should've been two movies.
The acting and writing left much to be desired (everyone acting like they had a stick up their butt). All in all a real letdown from Gettysburg.

[Iris7]

Forrest McDonald sees Washington as torn between sympathy for Jefferson (and at least Jefferson's political support) and his well trusted aide-de-camp Hamilton. (State and Treasury, respectively.)

Personally see Washington as sometimes Whig and sometimes Tory, or both at once. Washington was not fond of the great unwashed, but then neither was Jefferson. Nor Ted Kennedy, either.

[Iris7]

As far as secession goes, I figure if I don't live to see it my kids will. Moral decay, anti-Patriotism, widespread will to "live lies" (as Solzhenitsyn put it). Bad signs. Increasing public corruption, vote buying, election fraud. Disappearance of the middle class. Huge influx of foreigners without permission. Bread and Circuses. Cities increasingly dominated by gangs. The only jobs available even now are government.

Diocletian is not all that far in the future. Caligula has been here already.

Will this all be fixed? Well, if a miracle happens. Literally. All the needed fixes amount to the mice deciding to bell the cat.

The only question is whether we get Lenin or Francisco Franco. I much prefer the second choice.

[Iris7]

We do have a chance to break Islam. Best available option while the capacity remains.

If the Chinese were to do something really drastic - but they won't, I don't think. Out of character.

Oh, yeah, look at the horrible corruption of the Boomer generation. Most of them, anyway.

Dang, I am angry. Washington would not have allowed what we see around us.

Here I am crying over spilt milk.

[Wneighbor]

It's part of an alternate history trilogy. The South wins at Gettysburg which doesn't really take place at Gettysburg. It's a great trilogy. :-)

Guess which 2 word phrase in your statement - which was also on the book flap - caused me to abandon my pledge to myself to buy no more books!

Remember I just got through packing and moving several dozen boxes of books. eeek I didn't *need* more!!!

[Wneighbor]

I got to chapter 4 last night. I was purdy good but nobody's fought yet.

[Wneighbor]

As far as secession goes, I figure if I don't live to see it my kids will.

Agreed Mr.7. I have a tough time getting this concept over to my son-in-law who is otherwise on top of political/social times. I've tried to figure out of he disagrees that all is leading to secession because 1) He's spent 19 years in the army; 2) Maybe concerns for what will happen to the 4 kids just prevent him from entertaining the possibility; or 3) If he's still young enough to have a little fantasy idealism (he's 37).

I'm sure it's not that he's uninformed. I just can't figure out why he refuses to entertain the notion that we're headed toward some kind of split.

[Wneighbor]

If the Chinese were to do something really drastic - but they won't, I don't think. Out of character.

I never thought of that solution. Good thinking. Also good thinking in the "out of character" assessment, but still a plausible way to break Islam.

[Professional Engineer]

The South wins?

[Wneighbor]

[SAMWolf]

South wins ?

[Professional Engineer]

1) He's spent 19 years in the army;

I've wondered for several years now, what the carrer military guys felt in 1860/61 as things were moving the way they did.

For me, I know living in Texas, and accepting the fact this is "home" now, coupled with reading the Foxhole threads has been a real eye opener regarding the 1st Civil War.

The old phrase about the victor writing history really smacks you in the face when you read more in depth about 1810-1870 or so.

[Iris7]

Age 37 is still pretty idealistic. I sure was. Back then I used to think that people could be changed by reasoning with them. Hah, hah, hah.

"Can't reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into." "Humans are not rational but rationalizing."

You have to lie to yourself before you can lie to others. Every lie you hear is coming from a heart that lies to itself.

"The only thing that can be learned from history is that people do not learn from history."

Quotes are real. The "lie to yourself" idea is ancient, but I did not understand what it meant until this year.

[colorado tanker]

I agree Washington felt great loyalty and sympathy with Jefferson. My only point is that when it came time to make decisions, Washington backed virtually the entirety of Hamilton's finance and tax system as well as the organization of the Treasury, which at that time had most of the employees of the government. IMHO, that was a very good thing, as the new government started out on a very firm footing.

For all the bitter partisanship, especially during the Adams administration, it's interesting that Jefferson basically left Hamilton's system intact after assuming the Presidency.

[Iris7]

"He who controls the present controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future." - Orwell

Interestingly, enough historical material is available to totally blow away the standard public school dogma. Unfortunately for all of us becoming familiar with this material is a time consuming effort. Most importantly, having opinions unattractive to the social group with which you identify is to become unloved and despised, at least in most people's imaginations.

In Texas there is still some respect given for alternative views of the past (Texas is still something of an "Aristocratical" culture, as Plato used the term.) In Texas a person can fit in a bit after studying history, history writing, and source materials. (Especially if he thinks the War a tragedy.) Up here I am a rogue bull kept carefully out the herd unless I am temporarily useful.

[Iris7]

I like your synopsis. I think Forrest McDonald would too. As I get older my view of human nature and the nature of government becomes more Hamiltonian. Jefferson would use the term "cynical".

Hamilton certainly did not think the "people" capable of self government. He thought that the "people" would not defend the Constitution. Looks like he was correct.

[Iris7]

More evidence supporting my case, as if more were needed:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1488082/posts

Notice the comments. So childish that it breaks the heart.

I fear that debased ideas will drive good ideas out of circulation, analogously to Thomas Gresham's (1519-79) description of how debased money drives good money from circulation. These are ancient ideas, for instance see Aristophane's The Frogs, here talking about ideas and politicians.

The course our city runs is the same towards men and money.
She has true and worthy sons.
She has fine new gold and ancient silver,
coins untouched with alloys, gold or silver,
each well minted, tested each and ringing clear.
Yet we never use them!
Others pass from hand to hand,
sorry brass just struck last week and branded with a wretched brand.
So with men we know for upright, blameless lives and noble names.
These we spurn for men of brass....