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The FReeper Foxhole Profiles Lt Frank Luke Jr. Part 2 Oct. 21, 2005
Compiled by Iris7 | See Educational Resources

Posted on 10/20/2005 7:49:25 PM PDT by alfa6


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Lt Frank Luke Jr. Ballon Buster Part 2

September 12th, 1918. 0500 hours.

The St.-Mihiel Offensive begins.

It had been raining for days, and did not stop.

That morning Frank Luke and Joe Wehner took off together into the mist, rain, and fog. It is unlikely that Lieutenant Grant knew about it.

Wehner spotted a drachen near Montsec and approaching from behind and put 100 rounds into it. The balloon’s crew began winching it down rapidly, and considering the ceiling (no more than 800 meters at that time and day) the job couldn't have taken very long. Joe made another turn but the drachen was already in its nest. Though it never burned Joe requested confirmation of a balloon kill when he returned to base.Luke reported spotting three enemy aircraft near Lavigneville and that he flew east after them toward Pont-A-Mousson, where they disappeared toward Metz. Luke was now out of his sector. According to his flight report it was at this moment that Luke spotted a draken near Marieulles.

Frank came in shooting and closed to yards of the balloon before pulling off. The thing wasn’t burning. He throttled back and swung around again, flying his Spad dangerously close to the draken before firing. Nothing. A third time, with the frantic ground crew winching their draken down as fast as humanly possible, Frank Luke flew through the antiaircraft cannon and massed machine-gun fire and gave the Draken one last, long, frustrated burst. Both guns jammed, and Luke broke left to reduce the stoppage while simultaneously wheeling around for another pass.

But the partially deflated balloon had started to burn, and the flames now spread rapidly. In an instant - at exactly 8:09 a.m.- it exploded in a red ball, the flaming bag dropping the short distance to the ground to consume both the Draken and the winch crew.

Almost no one had believed he had shot down the Albatros on Aug. 16th. Rather than turn his Spad back toward Rembercourt, Frank put down near an American observation balloon on our side of the lines at Dieulouard. American infantrymen rose up out of their trenches as the wheels of Luke's Spad splashed through the French mud and hustled Luke into the trenches before his Spad attracted artillery fire. But, hey, no draken, no artillery fire!

The Americans in the trenches were most pleased to see the Draken destroyed. Wounded waiting in the front line trenches could be carried back to the doctors at 9:00 AM that day instead having to wait for dark to make the long muddy trip. Water, food, and ammunition could be brought up.

Luke had several of the officers write affidavits that Luke had indeed shot down the Drachen.

COMBAT REPORT - September 12, 1918

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

Saw three E. A. (enemy aircraft) near Lavigneville and gave chase, following them directly east towards Pont- a-Mousson where they disappeared towards Metz. Saw enemy balloon at Marieulles. Destroyed it after three passes at it. Each within a few yards of the balloon. The third pass was made when the balloon was very near the ground.

Both guns stopped, so pulled off to one side. Fixed left gun and turned about to make one final effort to burn it. The next instant it burst into great flames and dropped on the winch, destroying it.

There was a good field near our balloons, so landed for confirmation. The observer, Joseph M. Fox, who saw the burning, said he thought everal were killed when it burst into flames so near the ground. Left field and started back when my motor began cutting out. Returned to same field and there found out my motor could not be fixed, so returned by motor cycle. Attached you will find confirmation from Lieutenant Fox and Lieutenant Smith. Both saw burning.

Luke’s Spad was picked up that night. The squadron head mechanic inspected Luke’s Spad and said:

"Lieutenant, I've seen a lot of planes come in. But when they come in this way, the bird that drives 'em gets it and he gets it fast."

Luke grinned.

"They can't get me. Look at that!" - inserting a finger in the hole through the seat - "Why didn't that one hit me?"

Patrols on the 13th yielded no results.

The 14th was another successful day for the young Arizonan.

COMBAT REPORT - September 14, 1918 [Morning Patrol]

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

Left formation at Abaucourt and attacked an enemy balloon near Boinville. Dove at it six times at close range. Had two stoppages with left gun which carried incendiary bullets and, after fixing both, continued the attack. After about seventy-five rounds being left in right gun, I attacked an Archie battery at the base of the balloon. Am sure that my fire took effect as the crews scattered.

After my first attack on the balloon the observer jumped after he shot at me. The last I saw of the balloon, it was on the ground in a very flabby condition.Confirmation requested.

Compare Luke's report to Lt. Dawson's:

I [Dawson] left the formation over Moranville and attacked an enemy balloon near Boinville, diving at it three times and emptying both guns. Tracers entered it in great numbers. The observer jumped and the balloon was hauled down in a very flabby condition. White flaming balls were fired at me. Lt. Luke was below the balloon firing at the Archie battery. I left after the balloon had struck the ground it was not sent up again, at the time I left, twenty minutes later. From what I could observe it was very badly shot up.

And Lt. Lennon's version:

Followed Lt. Luke and Dawson. Saw them attack enemy ballon in vicinity of Boinville. Observed that the observer jumped and enemy archie began to burst. The balloon flattened out and went to the ground. I dove on it and fired 50 round from each gun. The last I saw of balloon it was on the ground in a very flabby condition.

That afternoon the 27th was ordered to attack another draken over Buzy. When Hartney briefed his officers (the now Captain Grant, Lt. Lawson, Lt. Clapp, and Lt. Lennon) on the plan Clapp suggested the unwelcome Luke be given the hazardous assignment. If he succeeded, fine. If he failed he would ship out. If he died they wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Luke would dart out of the formation to be the "shooter;" and only Joe Wehner would cover him.

September 14, 1918 [Afternoon Patrol]

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

I and Lieutenant Wehner were to leave with formation to attack enemy balloon by order of C. O. On arriving at Buzy, left formation and brought down enemy balloon in flames. While fixing my guns so I could attack another balloon near by, eight enemy Fokkers dropped down on me. Pulled away from them. They scored several good shots on my plane. I saw Lieutenant Wehner dive through enemy formation and attack two enemy planes on my tail; but, as my guns were jammed, did not turn, as I was not sure it was an Allied plane until he joined me later. You will find attached confirmation of balloon.

Lieutenant Wehner had been flying high cover for Lieutenant Luke. He had saved Frank from death, and neither for the first nor the last time.

With two confirmed balloons to his credit the other pilots could no longer call Luke a liar. Mad, maybe, arrogant certainly, a jerk, an ass, whatever, but not a liar.

According to Hartney Luke tried to go up on an unauthorized third patrol at dusk in another pilot's plane and was massively chewed out by Captain Grant. Major Hartney persuaded him to fill out his combat reports and accept Grant's orders. Joe Wehner did fly that evening; and while a French flier beat him to the balloon, he shot down two Fokker D-VII's (although not confirmed).

By the evening of the 14th the legend of Frank Luke had begun to take shape. He was no longer dismissed as only a flake. Perhaps he was boastful and unpopular but he and Wehner had "the right stuff". They had destroyed three balloons and fought off defending German fighters. To Mitchell, Hartney, and other American commanders, the 27th seemed to be the unit to tackle the heavily defended "sausages." With Luke and Wehner on the sharp end.

The next morning, the pattern continued. As specifically noted in Frank's combat report, he was ordered to leave formation and attack the gasbags at Boinville and Bois d'Hingry

COMBAT REPORT - September 15, 1918 [Morning Patrol]

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

I left formation and attacked an enemy balloon at Boinville in accordance with instructions and destroyed it. I fired 125 rounds. I then attacked another balloon near Bois d'Hingry and fired fifty rounds into it. Two confirmations requested.

Wehner kept pace with his deadly friend, burning two balloons and shooting down two Fokkers that tried to get on Luke's tail. A very nice piece of teamwork by our two youngsters.

Luke had noticed that the German fighters left the draken in time to land in the late dusk while there was still some light. The draken were therefore without air cover during the late evening. A Spad could fly low across no man’s land at part throttle and not be noticed from the balloon against the dark ground while the Draken could be seen against the sky glow of late dusk. With luck, the draken installation would not realize they were under attack until the Spad was perhaps a mile away. The Spad at full throttle then climbed and fired into the German balloon. Starting from a four mile distance the Spad could complete an attack run within the four minutes. Seems a short time, hey? Four minutes is the time it took Frank Luke to flame one Draken and then another one four miles away on the evening of September 16th, as is described by Edward Rickenbacker below. Luke proposed to rely on a lit-up airfield to land safely, and pure cussedness for navigation.

His evening patrol report follows:

COMBAT REPORT - September 15, 1918 [Evening Patrol]

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

Patrolled to observe enemy activity. Left a little after formation, expecting to find it on the lines. On arriving there I could not find formation but saw artillery firing on both sides. Also saw a light at about 500 meters. At first I thought it was an observation machine but on nearing it I found that it was a Hun balloon, so I attacked and destroyed it. I was Archied with white fire, and machine guns were very active. Returned very low. Saw thousands of small lights in woods north of Verdun. On account of darkness coming on I lost my way and landed in a French wheat field at Agers about twenty-one hours thirty. Balloon went down in flames at nineteen hours fifty.

Records from German Balloon Company Eighteen of Balloon Battalion Thirty- three confirmed these victories.

Wehner had shot down two balloons and three combat planes in three days, and Luke had killed six draken. Most likely the other pilots of the 27th sucked it up a bit. One likes to see the good guys win.Lieutenants Luke and Wehner became celebrities. Congratulations came in from other units and reporters asked for interviews. Newspapers back home carried the story. I don’t like this vulgar display forced on such men but the media are like bedbugs or lice, ubiquitous and grotesque even then.

On the morning of September 16 Luke and Wehner again patrolled the front. The German balloon line had become wary. Twice they sighted German balloons, and twice the bags were hastily landed before they could be attacked. Not terribly hard to see why, hey.

The very dangerous balloon attacks became entertainment that evening when Hartney invited Col. Billy Mitchell to watch the show.
v In the late afternoon Mitchell and sundry brass arrived in a Mercedes auto. Luke and Wehner did a show and tell, a song and dance, and then it was getting to be time for the show itself. Some American artillery began to fire and the German balloons rose up a bit to get a better view of the muzzle flashes.

As dusk deepened Luke and Wehner left Major Hartney’s headquarters and walked to their machines. Luke pointed to the two plainly visible German observation balloons to the east of the field, suspended in the sky about two miles back of the German lines and perhaps four miles apart.

From Captain Edward Rickenbacker:

“Keep your eyes on these two balloons”, said Frank as he passed us. "You will see that first one there go up in flames exactly at 7:15 and the other will do likewise at 7:19."

We had little idea he would really get either of them, but we all gathered together out in the open as the time grew near and kept our eyes glued to the distant specks in the sky. Suddenly, Major Hartney exclaimed, 'There goes the first one!' It was true! A tremendous flare of flame lighted up the horizon. We all glanced at our watches. It was exactly 7:15 on the dot!

"The intensity of our gaze towards the location of the second Hun balloon may be imagined. It had grown too dusk to distinguish the balloon itself, but we well knew the exact point in the horizon were it hung. Not a word was spoken as we alternately glanced at the second-hands of our watches and then at the eastern skyline. Almost upon the second our watching group yelled simultaneously. A small blaze first lit up the point at which we were gazing. Almost instantaneously another gigantic burst of flames announced to us that the second balloon had been destroyed. It was a most spectacular exhibition."

COMBAT REPORT - September 16, 1918

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

Patrol to strafe balloons. Everything very carefully arranged. Lt Wehner and I left airdrome passing over Verdun. We attacked balloon in vicinity of Reville at 19 h 03. Both Lt. Wehner and I shot a burst into it. It burst into flames and fell on observer who had jumped a few seconds before. We started for another balloon in vicinity of Romagne. I attacked and destroyed it. It burst into flames on the ground, burning winch. The anti-aircraft guns were very active scoring several good hits on my plane. The last I saw of Lt. Wehner he was going in a south-easterly direction after the first balloon went down. I shot at supply trains on my way back. Two confirmations requested.

COMBAT REPORT - September 16, 1918

Lieutenant J. F. Wehner reports:

Patrol to strafe balloons. Flew north-east passing over Verdun and attacked balloon in vicinity of Reville with Lt. Luke at 19 h 05. We each fired one burst when I observed that it instantly caught fire. The observer jumped but was burned to death by the flaming balloon before reaching the ground. I headed towards the Meuse river trying to pick up another balloon; could not locate one so headed towards Verdun. On the way back saw a fire in the vicinity of Romagne which evidently was Lt. Luke's second balloon. While waiting for Lt. Luke near Verdun saw red flare over Mangiennes. Thinking it our prearranged signal from Lt. Luke, I headed in that direction. Saw balloon just above the tree tops near Mangiennes and brought it down in flames with one burst at 19 h 35. Anti-aircraft very active. Two confirmations requested.

Three Draken destroyed the 16th.

September 17 - no reported combat

September 18 - Joe Wehner was killed. The two men destroyed two draken over Labeuville and were attacked by several German fighters. Wehner was killed and Luke shot down three.

COMBAT REPORT - September 18, 1918

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

Lieutenant Wehner and I left the airdrome at 16 h 00 to spot enemy balloons. Over St. Mihiel we saw two German balloons near Labeuville. Maneuvered in the clouds and dropped down, burning both. We were then attacked by a number of E.A. (enemy aircraft), the main formation attacking Lieutenant Wehner, who was above and on one side. I started climbing to join the fight when two E. A. attacked me from the rear. I turned on them, opening both guns on the leader. We came head on until within a few yards of each other when my opponent turned to one side in a nose dive and I saw him crash to the ground.

I then turned on the second, shot a short burst, and he turned and went into a dive. I saw a number of E. A. above but could not find Lieutenant Wehner, so turned and made for our lines. The above fight occurred in the vicinity of St. Hilaire. On reaching our balloon line, flew east. Saw Archie on our side, flew toward it, and found an enemy observation machine. I gave chase with some other Spads and got (cut) him off from his lines. After a short encounter he crashed within our lines, southeast of Verdun. Lieutenant Wehner is entitled to share in the victories over both the balloons. Confirmations requested, two balloons and three planes

Frank Luke was now the leading American ace with four planes and ten balloons destroyed. Of these fourteen thirteen had been destroyed in one week during which he had flown on five days.

This photo was taken the next day, showing Luke standing in front of the wreckage of the observation aircraft he had destroyed the previous evening:

A newsman put Luke in front of the September 18th Halberstadt and took this photo. I believe I can see that Luke finds this fellow vulgar. Notice the strain showing around the eyes. Lieutenant Luke is twenty-one years and four months old.

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1 posted on 10/20/2005 7:49:31 PM PDT by alfa6
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To: alfa6
Major Hartney sent Luke on September 19th to Paris for six days for R&R (what is generally known as I&I). Luke seems to have been unable to unwind. I do not find this out of character one bit.

This is Luke’s last letter home. Again the strain shows.

Myself I would have pulled him out of combat immediately and sent him to sell war bonds or something. He deserved a chance to live.

September 25, 1918.


I have not written for some days now on account of being so busy, as no doubt you have already heard. This is only a line to let you know that I am O. K. Now, mother, remember that I have passed the dangerous stage of being a new hand at the game, so don't worry, for I now know how to take care of myself.

Love to all,


While Luke was in Paris “B” flight of the 27th was moved to an advanced airfield just south of Verdun and much closer to the line. “B” Flight was held on alert status, some aircraft with warm engines, flight suits on, etc. This field gave Luke a chance to get away from Captain Grant. Lieutenant Luke by his own wish was assigned further Draken missions. Lieutenant Ivan A. Roberts, Frank’s remaining friend in the Group, was detailed to fly with him.

COMBAT REPORT - September 26, 1918.

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

On patrol to strafe balloons in vicinity Consenvoye and Sivry I attacked with two others [a third plane had joined them after they left the airdrome] a formation of five Fokkers. After firing several short bursts, observed the Hun go down out of control. While at 100 meters I was attacked by two E. A. so I did not see the first E. A. crash.

I turned on the other two who were on my tail, getting on the tail of one, but guns jammed several times and after fixing both could only shoot short bursts on account of the several stoppages. One confirmation requested. The last I saw of Lieutenant Roberts, who was on this patrol with me, was in combat with several Fokkers in the vicinity of Consenvoye and Sivry.

Roberts was seen to crash in German territory. His fate is unknown. Late in 1920 Captain Grant received a letter that told of Roberts capture, imprisonment, escape and death. The writer, one "Jack LaGrange, M.D." was unknown to the American Legion and the letter is considered unreliable. Likely a fantasizing stay-at-home wrote it.

Hartney wrote:

[Luke] came to me and pleaded to be allowed to operate independently from [the B Flight forward Verdun] field. His CO, Capt. Grant, was frantic at his inability to control Luke's activities. Almost every pilot in the Group had had a crack at the balloon over Bethenville. But it was still up. While Grant and I were discussing the advisability of letting Luke operate as a lone wolf out of the Verdun field, Frank went out all by himself ... on Sept. 28 and burned up the Bethenville balloon in its nest."

COMBAT REPORT - September 28, 1918.

Lieutenant Frank Luke reports:

I flew north to Verdun, crossed the lines at about five hundred meters and found a balloon in its nest in the region of Bethenville. I dove on it firing both guns. After I pulled away it burst into flames. As I could not find any others I returned to the airdrome. One confirmation requested.

Luke, evidently the only man in the group able to destroy these important enemy targets, was acting without orders and according to his own plans. The sources are confused, but apparently Luke filed a brief Combat Report with Grant late in the day on the 28th and took off in a Spad to spend the night with a French unit. Technically Luke was absent without leave and a real butt head could have said he had stolen the Spad. So, guess what. On the morning of the 29th Grant demanded that Luke be arrested.

Luke landed at the advanced field near Verdun on the 29th. Late that afternoon he took off alone without authorization. He flew over an American balloon company near Souilly and dropped a note reading "Watch three Hun balloons on the Meuse. Luke."

Luke’s career as a Draken killer lasted for seventeen days.

The Frank Luke corner at the USAF Musuem

2 posted on 10/20/2005 7:57:37 PM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: alfa6
Evening, September 29th, 1918

Lieutenant Luke attacked the three Draken over the Meuse and was engaged by the Fokkers covering them. He burned the three balloons, and American Balloon Headquarters confirmed the kills. According to the residents of Murvaux he also shot down two of the German fighters. (These victories are not included in his confirmed total of 18.) He crash-landed near Murvaux and was killed in a gun battle with German soldiers.

For three months nothing was known of Luke except that he had disappeared. The following letter is dated January 3, 1919.

FROM: Graves Registration Officer, Neufchateau Area No. 1. To: Chief of Air Service, A. P. O. [American Post Office] 717.

SUBJECT: Grave, unknown American aviator.

1. Units of this service have located the grave of an unknown aviator killed on Sunday, September 29, 1918, in the village of Murvaux.

2. From the inspection of the grave and interview held with the inhabitants of this town, the following information was learned in regard to this aviator and his heroism. He is reported as having light hair, young, of medium height, and of heavy stature.

3. Reported by the inhabitants that previous to being killed this man had brought down three German balloons, two German planes, and dropped hand bombs, killing eleven German, soldiers and wounding a number of others.

4. He was wounded himself in the shoulder and evidently had to make a forced landing. Upon landing he opened fire with his automatic and fought until he was killed.

5. It is also reported that the Germans took his shoes, leggings, and money, leaving his grave unmarked.

CHESTER E. STATEN, Captain of Infantry, G. R. S. Officer.

Picture from (

Although everyone at air headquarters believed this had to be Luke General Pershing ordered a staff officer to investigate.

The staff officer's report


1. This officer was killed at Murvaux (five kilometers east of Dun-sur-Meuse on Sunday, September 29, 1918. The Germans stripped him of all identifications, but Captain McCormick of the 301st Graves Registration Unit, stationed at Fontaine near Murvaux, ... stated concerning the death of this aviator, that he exhumed the body, that it was a man of medium height, heavy set, and with light hair. On his wrist he found an Elgin watch No. 20225566, which was under the sleeve of his combination and which the Germans ... had evidently missed. . .

2. The village people of Murvaux told Capt. McCormick that this aviator first shot down three German balloons and two German planes, then descended low over the ground and killed eleven Germans with either hand bombs or machine gun bullets. While flying low his plane was hit from the ground and he himself was apparently wounded.

3. He made a successful landing, got out of his plane, and when the Germans called on him to surrender, he replied by drawing his automatic and opening fire, thus standing he defended himself until he was killed.

4. The description of this aviator by Captain McCormick, and the fact that Lieutenant Luke dropped a note to a balloon company that day stating that he was going to shoot down the balloons which were shot down, make it almost certain that this officer was Second Lieutenant Frank Luke, Air Service, whose nearest relative is Frank Luke, 2200 West Monroe Street, Phoenix, Arizona.

5. If the Air Service wishes to check this case it is suggested that a representative of the Air service be sent to Murvaux and obtain sworn statements from the French people of that village.

Officers of the Rembercourt Field drove to Murvaux, and obtained the following sworn statement:

The Frank Luke Monument at Murvaux


"The undersigned, living in the town of Murvaux, Department of the Meuse, certify to have seen on the twenty- ninth day of September, 1918, toward evening, an American aviator, followed by an escadrille of Germans, in the direction of Liny, near Dun (Mouse), descend suddenly and vertically toward the earth, then straighten out close to the ground and fly in the direction of the Briere Farm, near Doulcon, where he found a captive balloon, which he burned. Following this he flew toward Milly (Mouse), where he found another balloon, which he also burned, in spite of an incessant fire directed against his machine. There he was apparently wounded by a shot fired from rapid-fire cannon. From there he came back over Murvaux, and with his machine gun killed six German soldiers and wounded many more.

Following this he landed and got out of his machine, undoubtedly to quench his thirst at a near-by stream. He had gone some fifty yards, when, seeing the Germans come toward him, he still had strength to draw his revolver to defend himself, and a moment after fell dead, following a serious wound received in the chest. Certify equally to having seen the German commandant of the village refuse to have straw placed in the cart carrying the dead aviator to the village cemetery. This same officer drove away some women bringing a sheet to serve as a shroud for the hero, and said, kicking the body:

"Get that out of my way as quickly as possible." The next day the Germans took away the airplane, and the inhabitants also saw another American aviator fly very low over the town, apparently looking for the disappeared aviator.

Signatures of the following:

Perton; Leon Henry

Rene Colin; Cortlae Delbart

Auguste Cuny; Gabriel Didier

Henry Gustave; Camille Phillipe

Eugene Coline; Voliner Nicholas

Odile Patouche; Vallentine Garre

Richard Victor; Gustave Garre The undersigned themselves placed the body of the aviator on the wagon and conducted it to the cemetery:

Cortlae Delbart, Voliner Nicholas

Seen for legalization of signatures placed above: The Mayor, AUGUST GARRE, Murvaux, Jan. 15,1919. [Seal of Murvaux]

Myself, I don’t believe Frank Luke was looking for a drink in that stream. That he had landed his aircraft as close as possible to the stream and made for it as quickly as possible is historically confirmed. The ground in that area was flat and exposed. The only possible cover or concealment was that streambed. I figure Luke was trying to escape and evade or find cover or concealment for a last stand. Luke had a .45 auto pistol, and when cornered shot it out with the enemy while being very outnumbered and despite of his wounds. I will wager Lieutenant Luke got some good hits.

The German version of Luke's death closely follows the Murvaux township report. Lieutenant B. Mangels, who after the war resided in Muenster, commanded the balloon company controlling the last two balloons Luke destroyed and directed the fire that brought Luke down. Paraphrasing his report:

On September 29 (Luke’s number three draken) the baloon was aloft northwest of Murvaux on the western slope of the Cote St. Germain. This was balloon Number Thirty-five of the Fifth German Army. Some distance away at the Briere Farm was balloon Number Sixty-four (Luke’s number two balloon that day.) As Luke attacked the draken number three at low level Mangels, on ground duty, personally directed concentrated machine-gun fire against Luke’s aircraft and is certain he had hits on the pilot's body. Learning a few minutes later that Luke had crashed beyond Murvaux Mangels went to the scene and found Luke dead. Mangels was able to identify Luke through an English citation for shooting down nine balloons found on the body.

Frank Luke received the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously. Luke Air Force Base is named for him. He is not remembered much these days. Let us not forget.

3 posted on 10/20/2005 8:11:46 PM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: alfa6
Educational Resources for todays thread (Home Of Heros) (USAF History) (The Aerodrome) (National Archives) (Great War)

Showcasing America's finest, and those who betray them!

Please click on the banner above and check out this newly created (and still under construction) website created by FReeper Coop!

Veterans for Constitution Restoration is a non-profit, non-partisan educational and grassroots activist organization.

Actively seeking volunteers to provide this valuable service to Veterans and their families.

Thanks to quietolong for providing this link.

We here at Blue Stars For A Safe Return are working hard to honor all of our military, past and present, and their families. Inlcuding the veterans, and POW/MIA's. I feel that not enough is done to recognize the past efforts of the veterans, and remember those who have never been found.

I realized that our Veterans have no "official" seal, so we created one as part of that recognition. To see what it looks like and the Star that we have dedicated to you, the Veteran, please check out our site.

Veterans Wall of Honor

Blue Stars for a Safe Return


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4 posted on 10/20/2005 8:15:28 PM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: Allen H; Colonial Warrior; texianyankee; vox_PL; Bigturbowski; ruoflaw; Bombardier; Steelerfan; ...

"FALL IN" to the FReeper Foxhole!

Good Friday Morning Everyone.

If you want to be added to our occasional ping list, let us know.

5 posted on 10/20/2005 8:17:04 PM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: alfa6; SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; PhilDragoo
Happy Friday, all.

6 posted on 10/20/2005 8:25:26 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
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To: alfa6; Iris7
Nicely done you two. Thank you for bringing us this nearly forgotten story and honoring Lt.Frank Luke Jr.

7 posted on 10/20/2005 8:39:54 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Iris7
Recyling my pics from part 1, eh?

And SAM had to use one of the pics yesterday for todays post :-)

Hey seriously, Iris7 did all the hard part. All I had to do was cut and paste.

Good nite all, back tomorrow


alfa6 ;>}

8 posted on 10/20/2005 8:44:32 PM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: alfa6
Recyling my pics from part 1, eh?

It was the one I liked best of the Lt.

And SAM had to use one of the pics yesterday for todays post :-)

I used to hate when that happened. LOL. You can't get anything past these Foxhole folks.

9 posted on 10/20/2005 8:54:36 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: alfa6; Iris7; All

Frank Luke Monument Restored

10 posted on 10/20/2005 9:16:32 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it
I have come to know Frank Luke in some way almost intimately, in the way that a student does by study of his subject's character. Lieutenant Luke was a warm and gentle young man, headstrong, affectionate, and very extraordinarily deadly. Such a fine man. Make an excellent son-in-law with a few years more seasoning. (Have three daughters, always evaluating available material!)

Great big chunks of this story had to be cut out for space reasons. Instead of two days the original manuscript would have taken three. (Original had over 10,000 words.)

Just a little titbit (as the Canadians say):

Joe Wehner held off the Jagdstaffel boys, three, six, more, all at one time, who flew cover for the Draken. Luke went for the balloon. If the Fokkers were not too much of a problem Wehner would join Luke in his attack.

When Wehner was killed he was holding off at least six Fokkers. After he died those six Fokkers attacked Luke.

Luke saw Joe go down (that guy had vision in every direction) and went right at the attacking Fokkers. Luke killed three. The other three escaped.
11 posted on 10/21/2005 1:18:18 AM PDT by Iris7 ("Let me go to the house of the Father.")
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To: alfa6

Thanks, Alpha6. Good images.

12 posted on 10/21/2005 1:31:48 AM PDT by Iris7 ("Let me go to the house of the Father.")
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To: alfa6; snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Wneighbor; Professional Engineer; Samwise; PhilDragoo; radu; ...

Good morning FOXHOLE!
Hey, alfa, is it Friday yet? LOL

13 posted on 10/21/2005 2:28:36 AM PDT by Soaring Feather (If down is up, is up, down. Feathers in the wind.)
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To: alfa6

Good morning to everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.

14 posted on 10/21/2005 3:01:47 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: alfa6

Good morning ALL.

15 posted on 10/21/2005 3:52:47 AM PDT by GailA (Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
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To: alfa6; snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Wneighbor; Professional Engineer; Samwise; PhilDragoo; radu; ...

Good Friday morning to everyone! The weekend is almost upon us, so let's all be careful out there.....

16 posted on 10/21/2005 4:56:07 AM PDT by texianyankee
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To: alfa6

October 21, 2005

Perfect Hatred

Psalm 97

You who love the Lord, hate evil! —Psalm 97:10

Bible In One Year: Matthew 23-25

cover Tell me what you hate and I can tell you a great deal about yourself. Hatred can be the strong side of righteousness, but it needs a sign written on it with large red letters: Handle With Care.

Olive Moore, the 19th-century English writer, put words to this warning: "Be careful with hatred. . . . Hatred is a passion requiring one hundred times the energy of love. Keep it for a cause, not an individual. Keep it for intolerance, injustice, stupidity. For hatred is the strength of the sensitive. Its power and its greatness depend on the selflessness of its use."

We tend to waste our hatred on insignificant slights and differences. Comments made by a political opponent may draw our venom. Angry letters written to the editor often raise trivia to the level of significance because of the pathology of our misdirected hatred. Churches fracture and split when hatred is directed at people and not at the forces around us that destroy life and hope.

The old Methodist circuit riders were described as men who hated nothing but sin. They took seriously the admonitions of the psalmist, "You who love the Lord, hate evil!" (Psalm 97:10), and of the prophet Amos who urged his hearers to "hate evil, love good" (Amos 5:15). —Haddon Robinson

Dear Father, help us to handle hatred
with utmost care. Help us to direct our hatred
only at the things You despise. Teach us
what it means to hate the sin and love the sinner. Amen.

If you can't hate what is evil, you can't love what is good.

Right And Wrong: The Case For Moral Absolutes

17 posted on 10/21/2005 5:00:55 AM PDT by The Mayor ( Pray as if everything depends on God; work as if everything depends on you.)
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To: The Mayor
Two USAF F-16 fighters From Luke AFB, AZ fly through the Grand Canyon.

18 posted on 10/21/2005 5:06:35 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: snippy_about_it

snippy, Thanks for posting the pic of the plaque on Luke's monument. I hadn't found that one.


alfa6 ;>}

19 posted on 10/21/2005 5:07:36 AM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: texianyankee; The Mayor; Jet Jaguar

Good morning y'all, nice pic there Jet :-)


alfa6 ;>}

20 posted on 10/21/2005 5:09:35 AM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: texianyankee

Good morning. How's it going?

21 posted on 10/21/2005 5:11:19 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: alfa6

My pleasure.

22 posted on 10/21/2005 5:14:38 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: E.G.C.

It's going well this morning. I have the day off, so a long weekend for me.
Hope all is well with you & yours.....

23 posted on 10/21/2005 5:18:04 AM PDT by texianyankee
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To: texianyankee
Long weekend for the kids here in Oklahoma with school out for teacher's meeting in Tulsa. Dad's having a birthday tommorow. He turns 83.

Also OU homecoming tommorow with their game vs. Baylor at 6 tommorow night on Fox Sports Net.

24 posted on 10/21/2005 5:36:47 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: alfa6; snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise; Peanut Gallery; Wneighbor; Valin; Iris7; SAMWolf; ...
Good morning ladies and gents. Flag-o-Gram.

Combat colors
BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan -- (From left) Staff Sgt. Stephen Manley, Senior Airman Robert Welch, Tech. Sgt. Xavier Sanford and Senior Airman Gary McCormick present the colors during a change of command ceremony here May 15. Sergeant Sanford is assigned to the 455th Expeditionary Logistics Readiness Squadron, and Sergeant Manley and Airmen Welch and McCormick are assigned to the 455th Expeditionary Security Forces Squadron. (U.S. Air Force photo by Capt. Mark D. Gibson)

Check the thread count on the flag size.

25 posted on 10/21/2005 5:37:51 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Yes, the world does revolve around us. We picked the coordinate system.)
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To: bentfeather

Hi miss Feather.

TGIF! Two whole working days without phone calls until Monday.

26 posted on 10/21/2005 5:42:23 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Yes, the world does revolve around us. We picked the coordinate system.)
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To: E.G.C.

That game with Baylor ought to be a good one - Baylor aint a pushover this season.

Best wishes to your Dad.

27 posted on 10/21/2005 5:50:12 AM PDT by texianyankee
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To: Professional Engineer

Howdy PE!!

Today is Friday, I knew it would come around sooner or later. LOL

28 posted on 10/21/2005 5:50:42 AM PDT by Soaring Feather (If down is up, is up, down. Feathers in the wind.)
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To: Iris7; alfa6; snippy_about_it

27th Aero Squadron insignia from Lt. Frank Luke's SPAD XIII.

29 posted on 10/21/2005 6:38:52 AM PDT by SAMWolf (The cost of feathers has risen, now even down is up)
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To: Victoria Delsoul

It took long enough getting here. ;-)

30 posted on 10/21/2005 6:39:36 AM PDT by SAMWolf (The cost of feathers has risen, now even down is up)
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To: Professional Engineer
Check the thread count on the flag size.

LOL! I do like seeing the Warthog. :-)

31 posted on 10/21/2005 6:42:15 AM PDT by SAMWolf (The cost of feathers has risen, now even down is up)
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To: alfa6

On This Day In History

Birthdates which occurred on October 21:
1760 Katsushika Hokusai (d.1849), Japanese printmaker,
born. Hokusai was a master designer of color woodblock prints. His paintings included 36 views of Mt. Fuji.
1772 Samuel Taylor Coleridge England, poet (Rime of the Ancient Mariner)
1803 George Wright Brig General (Union volunteers), died in 1865
1833 Alfred Bernhard Nobel Stockholm, created dynamite & Peace Prizes
1912 Sir Georg Solti Budapest Hungary, conductor (Fidelio)
1914 Martin Gardner Scientific American math & puzzles columnist
1917 Dizzy Gillespie trumpeter, a creator of Bee Bop
1925 Joyce Randolph Detroit Mich, actress (Trixie-Honeymooners)
1928 Edward "Whitey" Ford hall of fame pitcher (NY Yankees)
1929 Ursula LeGuin American writer (Lathe of Heaven)
1933 Georgia Brown actress (Study in Terror, The Fixer)
1940 Frances FitzGerald NYC, journalist/author (Fire in the Lake)
1940 Manfred Mann rocker (The Mighty Quinn)
1940 Osamu Watanabe Japan, featherweight (Olympic-gold-1964)
1942 Elvin Bishop Okla, rocker/Blues guitarist, National Merit Scholar, Paul Butterfield Blues Band
1943 Paula Kelly Jacksonville Fla, dancer/actress (Liz-Night Court)
1949 Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli prime minister
1950 Ronald E McNair Lake City SC, astr(STS 41B, 51L-Challenger disaster)
1953 Charlotte Caffey singer (GoGos-Our Lips are Sealed)
1956 Carrie Fisher Beverly Hills, actress (Star Wars-Princess Lelia)

Deaths which occurred on October 21:
1422 Charles VI, King of France (1380-1422), dies at 54
1439 Traversari Ambrosius (53), Italian humanist and leader, died
1805 Adm Horatio Nelson dies in the Battle of Trafalgar
The Nelson Society
1831 Nat Turner 19 associates, hung
1966 Gertrude Hoffman actress (Mrs Odetts-My Little Margie), dies at 95
1967 Ejnar Hertzsprung Danish astrophysicist, dies at 94
1969 Jack Kerouac (47), Beat Generation chronicler, dies of alcoholism in St. Petersburg, Fla. ("On the Road", "Dharma Bums.")
1984 Francois Truffaut director, dies at 52 of brain cancer
(Fahrenheit 451 (1966) (screenplay)
1992 Jackson Weaver, voice of Smokey the Bear, dies of diabetes
1992 Jim Garrison, Louisiana DA (investigate JFK assassination), dies at 70
1992 Shirley Booth, actress (Hazel), dies at 94
1995 Maxene Andrews, vocalist (Andrews Sister), dies of heart attack at 79

Take A Moment To Remember
GWOT Casualties

21-Oct-2003 1 | US: 1 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Private 1st Class Paul J. Bueche Balad - Salah ad Din Non-hostile - maintenance accident

10/21/04 Samek, Jesse M. Airman 1st Class 21 Air Force 66th Rescue Squadron Helicopter crash 106 mi. E. of Shindand
Data research by Pat Kneisler
Designed and maintained by Michael White
Go here and I'll stop nagging.

On this day...
2137 BC 1st recorded total eclipse of the sun China
0310 St Eusebius ends his reign as Catholic Pope
0335 Constantinople emperor (Constantine the Great) enacted rules against Jews.
0686 Conon begins his reign as Catholic Pope
1096 Sultan Kilidj Arslan of Nicea defeats 1st Crusaders
1520 Magellan entered the strait which bears his name
(Ok, Name the strait. the 4th correct answer will win a valuable prize. Did I say valuable? I really meant might almost say keen. Oh your friends and neighbor will turn green with envy, and I can't say I blame them. So submit your entry along with $5.00 to cover S&H
Notice: all answers are property of Valin and/or "bunco."
"Remember at bunco you get what you pay for"
1529 The Pope names Henry VIII of England Defender of the Faith after defending the seven sacraments against Luther
1790 The Tricolor is chosen as the official flag of France.
(That would be white)

1797 US Navy frigate Constitution, Old Ironsides, launched in Boston

1805 Battle of Trafalgar, Adm Nelson defeats French & Spanish fleet & dies
1824 Joseph Aspdin patents Portland cement
1861 Battle of Balls Bluff, Va. Defeat sparks Congressional investigations
1867 Many leaders of the Kiowa, Comanche and Kiowa-Apache sign a peace treaty at Medicine Lodge, Kan. Comanche Chief Quanah Parker refused to accept the treaty terms.
1871 1st US amateur outdoor athletic games (NY)
1879 Thomas Edison perfects the carbonized cotton filament light bulb
1897 Yerkes Observatory of the University of Chicago is dedicated
1915 1st transatlantic radiotelephone message, Arlington, Va to Paris
1916 US Army forms Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC)

1917 1st Americans to see action on the front lines of WW I. First Division of the U.S. Army enters the front lines at Sommervillier under French command

1918 Margaret Owen sets world typing speed record of 170 wpm for 1 min
1923 Deutsches Museum, Munchen, 1st Walther Bauersfeld Zeiss Planetarium
1935 Hank Greenberg selected AL MVP unanimously
1944 During WWII, US troops capture Aachen, 1st large German city to fall
1945 Women in France allowed to vote for 1st time
1948 Beersheba liberated by the Israeli army
1948 Facsimile high-speed radio transmission demonstrated (Washington DC)
1950 Chinese forces occupy Tibet
1950 Tom Powers of Duke scores 6 touchdowns
1957 “Jailhouse Rock” starring Elvis Presley opened
1959 Dr. Werner Von Braun starts work at NASA.
1960 JFK & Nixon clashed in 4th & final presidential debate (NYC)
1966 144 die as a coal waste landslide engulfs a school in S Wales
1967 Thousands opposing Vietnam War try to storm the Pentagon
1969 Bloodless coup in Somalia (National Day)
1970 777 Unification church couples wed in Korea
1971 Nixon nominates Lewis F Powell & William H Rehnquist to US Supreme Court, following resignations of Justices Hugo Black & John Harlan
1973 A's manager Dick Williams quits after A's beat Mets in 70th World Series
1975 Venera 9, first craft to orbit the planet Venus launched
1976 American Saul Bellow wins Nobel Prize for Literature
1976 Cin Reds sweep NY Yankees, in 73rd World Series
1976 NY Knicks retire 1st number, # 19, Willis Reed
1977 US recalls William Bowdler, ambassador to South Africa
1979 Greta Waitz wins woman participation in NYC marathon (02:27:33)
1980 1st (& only) time Phillies win the World Series (in 98 years) (World Series #77)
1984 Steve Jones runs Chicago Marathon in world record 2:08:05
1987 Senate debate begins rejecting Robert Bork's Supreme Ct nomination
1988 Ferdinand & Imelda Marcos indicted on racketeering charges
1989 Buck Helm found alive after being buried 4 days, in SF earthquake
1989 Houston becomes 1st major college team to gain 1000 yards in a game
1989 1st black owners (Betram Lee & Peter Bynoe) to own a major sports team, purchasing Denver Nuggets for $65m
1991 US hostage Jesse Turner released from 5 years in captivity in Beirut
1991 Former California Governor Jerry "Governor Moonbeam" Brown announced his presidential candidacy.
1992 New York protesters upset with Sinead O'Connor for ripping up a photo of Pope John Paul II on "Saturday Night Live" use a steamroller to crush dozens of the Irish singer's CDs, records and tapes.
1993 Military coup by Burundi Pres Ndadaye/525,000 Hutu's flee
1996 Mayor of Algiers, Ali Boucetta, killed by a stray bullet in fighting between security forces and terrorists in Algiers.
1997 Reversing months of strong opposition, the Clinton administration endorsed a revised Republican bill to restructure the Internal Revenue Service and shift the burden of proof from the taxpayer to the government in contested court cases.
1997 Pictures of the Antennae galaxies, two intermeshed colliding galaxies, were taken by the Hubble Space Telescope in 1996 and revealed to the public for the first time
1999 A French-led expedition chopped clear the fully preserved carcass of a 20 thousand-year-old woolly mammoth, the "Jarkov Mammoth," from the permafrost of Siberia at Khatanga, Russia.
2002 Pres. Bush said he would try diplomacy "one more time," but did not think Saddam Hussein would disarm, even if doing so would allow him to remain in power.
2003 Pope John Paul II added 30 names to the list of his possible successors, installing a diverse collection of cardinals.
2004 Negotiations between the Sudanese government and the National Democratic Alliance (NDA), an umbrella organization for opposition groups from around Sudan, opened in Cairo under the auspices of Egypt.

Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

England : Trafalgar Day (1805)
Hondurous : Army Day (1956)
Hong Kong : Kite Flying Festival
Laos : Full Moon Holiday
Somali/Sudan : Revolution Day (1964)
National Business Women's Week (Day 6)
National Shampoo Week Ends
National Babbling Day (So I guess that means a person is supposed to babble today, but what happens to you if you don't babble? I mean will the government come and arrest you for felony nonbabbling? It's my opinion the the government has much more important things....OOOHHH look a bright sparkly thing! I really like sparkly things, the way the light reflects off it when you put it in the sun light. We don't have any sun light here today the sky is a nice calming shade of gray...almost a zone V so if you are in Mpls you could go out and calabrate your camera to make sure the light meter is correct....gosh I sure hope it doesn't rain because it's friday and I hate rain on friday, although if it rains late at night when people are asleep I guess it ok.......
(For more on Professional babbling send $10.00 Valin @ Bunco. Remember at Bunco you get what you pay for)
Count Your Buttons Day
National Clock Month
Spinal Health Month
National Sarcastics' Awareness Month

Religious Observances
RC : Commemoration of St Hilarion, abbot, ascetic, lover of solitude
RC : Commemoration of St Ursula, virgin, patron of brides

Religious History
1532 German reformer Martin Luther declared: 'For some years now I have read through the Bible twice every year. If you picture the Bible to be a mighty tree and every word a little branch, I have shaken every one of these branches because I wanted to know what it was and what it meant.'
1692 William Penn was deposed as Governor of Pennsylvania. His overtures of gratefulness to James II for permitting religious freedom for dissenters of the Church of England led William and Mary to charge Penn with being a papist.
1751 The first Baptist association in the American South was organized at Charleston, SC. It was formed under the initiative of Oliver Hart, who had left the Philadelphia area to become pastor of the Charleston Baptist Church in 1749.
1808 Birth of American Baptist clergyman Samuel Francis Smith. Credited with writing over 100 hymns, Smith is best remembered as the author of "America" ("My Country, 'Tis of Thee"), written at age 23, while a student at Andover Seminary.
1892 Birth of James L Kelso, American Presbyterian archaeologist. He participated in digs at the biblical sites of Debir, Bethel and Jericho, and authored the text "Ceramic Vocabulary of the O.T."

Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.

Car Ticketed With Dead Body at the Wheel

Oct 21, 6:26 AM (ET)

SYDNEY, Australia (AP) - A traffic warden slapped a parking ticket on a car which had its dead driver slumped at the wheel outside an Australian shopping mall, an official said Friday.

The body of the 71-year-old man, whose identity was not immediately released, was discovered Thursday in a parking lot in the southern city of Melbourne, The Age newspaper reported Friday.
The man had been reported missing nine days earlier and was known to be seriously ill, the newspaper said.

Nevertheless, a parking officer who inspected the vehicle failed to notice the man inside and issued the parking fine two days before his body was discovered.

Paul Denham, the mayor of Maroondah council, where the man was found, said the parking officer was "distressed" to learn that the dead man had been inside the car.
"Our local laws officer checked and wrote out the ticket at the rear of the vehicle and placed the ticket from the passenger side on the windscreen," Denham said in a statement. "The local laws officer did not notice anything unusual regarding the vehicle, and is extremely distressed to have learned of the situation."

Thought for the day :
"Second to agriculture, humbug is the biggest industry of our age."
Alfred Nobel

32 posted on 10/21/2005 6:48:10 AM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: Valin
1956 Carrie Fisher Beverly Hills, actress (Star Wars-Princess Lelia)


alfa6 ;>}

33 posted on 10/21/2005 7:13:17 AM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: Valin
1959 Dr. Werner Von Braun starts work at NASA.

Tom Lehrer
Wernher von Braun

Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown,
"Ha, Nazi, Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical,
Say rather that he's apolitical.
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But some think our attitude
Should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old London town,
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.**

You too may be a big hero,
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun.


alfa6 ;>}

34 posted on 10/21/2005 7:22:18 AM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: alfa6

Tom Lehrer, when the left had a sense of humor. I remember when this song came out...I was shocked. "That Was The Week That Was" played his stuff alot (as I recall)

35 posted on 10/21/2005 7:39:00 AM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: Valin
1797 US Navy frigate Constitution, Old Ironsides, launched in Boston

36 posted on 10/21/2005 8:15:26 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Yes, the world does revolve around us. We picked the coordinate system.)
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To: Valin

Tom Lehrer would have been a liberal in the Hubert Humphrey mold I would guess. I have all three of his albums on cassette somewhere, what a hoot.

I actually had the "honor" of getting to shake Sen Humphrey's hand while in high school during the 1968 election campaign.

IIRC one of the teachers had connections with the Democratic party in the St. Louis area and convinced the Humphrey campaign that it would be a good Photo op for ol Hubert to be seen at a local military school there in St Louis.

While I did not support his candidacy I've on occasion wondered what things would have been like had he been elected.

ANother for the what if file, eh?

37 posted on 10/21/2005 8:20:08 AM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: Valin; alfa6
1959 Dr. Werner Von Braun starts work at NASA.

Picture on my desk.

38 posted on 10/21/2005 8:27:49 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Yes, the world does revolve around us. We picked the coordinate system.)
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To: Professional Engineer

LOL. So you know about thread count 'eh?

39 posted on 10/21/2005 1:59:26 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Iris7
(Have three daughters, always evaluating available material!)

LOL. I'd bet that you are a hard sell!

40 posted on 10/21/2005 2:01:11 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: alfa6

We used to rely on Phil to find the pictures we couldn't. LOL. It's nice to know we can do it for you. :-)

41 posted on 10/21/2005 2:02:13 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it
LOL. So you know about thread count 'eh?

I gived muhself a guud educashun donchaknow.

42 posted on 10/21/2005 2:58:01 PM PDT by Professional Engineer (It might be Waterloo, but Delay is Wellington.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Yep, I know. Wanna play Trivial Pursuit?

43 posted on 10/21/2005 2:58:38 PM PDT by Professional Engineer (It might be Waterloo, but Delay is Wellington.)
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To: snippy_about_it; All

As I was telling one of my co-workers the other night, part of the "fun" of Google and Dogpile is trying to figure out exactly what word or phrase to use. When I was doing the research for the German Halftracks a couple weeks ago I could fiind very little under "German Halftracks". Type in "Sdkfz 251 halftrack" however and bingo, all sorts of info

And as I metioned on this weeks Treadhead thread, you can onnly post so many pics :-)

Well off to work I go, gotta work 6 out of the next 7 nights:-(


alfa6 ;>}

44 posted on 10/21/2005 3:24:03 PM PDT by alfa6 (Work....the curse of the drinking class.)
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To: Professional Engineer

Sure. As long as you don't pic the Science and Nature category.

45 posted on 10/21/2005 4:10:25 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: alfa6

According to Hartney Luke tried to go up on an unauthorized third patrol at dusk in another pilot's plane and was massively chewed out by Captain Grant. Major Hartney persuaded him to fill out his combat reports and accept Grant's orders. Joe Wehner did fly that evening; and while a French flier beat him to the balloon, he shot down two Fokker D-VII's (although not confirmed).

Fokker D.VII

The Fokker D.VII was unquestionably the best all-round German fighter of the First World War.

In January 1918 a competition open to single-seater fighters powered by the 160 hp Mercedes engine was held at Johannisthal, near Berlin. It was won outright by an angular little biplane with thick cantilever wings, the Fokker D.VII, designed by Reinhold Platz. Unquestionably the best all-round German fighter of the First World War, it was a development of Platz's experimental V.II, built late in 1917.

Its engine was either the 160/180 hp Mercedes or the 185 hp BMW, neatly cowled and fitted with a frontal radiator. BMW D.VIIs had the better performance and were much sought after. The 200 hp Benz was experimentally fitted without great success. The exhaust system was either the usual external horizontal pipe on the starboard side, or separate internal pipes connected to a large main pipe which protruded through the starboard cowling.

D.VII wings had two spars with plywood ribs; the leading-edges were of ply, the rest of the structure fabric covered. Unequal chord ailerons framed in steel tubing, were fitted to the upper wing only, which had a slight curved cutout in its trailing-edge. The lower wing was housed in a recess in the fuselage bottom; both planes had wire trailing-edges, giving *em a 'scalloped' appearance. Interplane and center section struts were of streamlined steel tubing.

The fuselage was constructed of wire-braced welded steel tubing with a three-ply top decking behind the cockpit; the whole being fabric-covered, except for the engine cowlings. Fin, balanced rudder, tailplane and balanced elevators were also of fabric-covered steel tube. Two struts braced the tailplane from below. The undercarriage was of streamlined steel tube and its axle was enclosed in a large fairing which gave some extra lift.

Twin Spandau guns were synchronized to fire through the revolving propeller.

Following its success at Johannisthal, the type was ordered in large quantities; not only was it built by the Fokker concern (Fok. D.VII F), but also by its rivals, the Albatros Werke (Fok. D.VII (Alb.)) and the Ostdeutsche Albatros Werke (Fok. D.VII (OAW)). Mercedes and BMW engines appear to have been distributed impartially to all three companies.

While not especially fast, the D.VII's strong point was its great maneuverability at high altitudes. It was extremely easy to fly and had no terrors for the beginner. Jagdgeschwader Nr. 1, the Richthofen 'Circus', received the first D.VIIs in time for the Second Battle of the Aisne in May 1918, and soon found that the new type gave them a good margin of advantage over their opponents. By the autumn the majority of the Jastas had been reequipped with D.VIIs. So highly did the Allies esteem the machine that their Armistice terms specifically ordered the surrender of all Fokker D.VIIs.

As a safeguard against a possible shortage of steel tubing and competent welders, the Albatros company built a D.VII with a plywood fuselage, but it was not found necessary to produce this variant. When the war ended, production of the type for Austro-Hungary had begun at the Hungarian Engineering Factory, Budapest (MAG).

Fokker D.VII
Top Wing span: 29 ft 3.2 in (8.93 m)
Bottom Wing Span: 23 ft 0 in (7.01 m)
Top Chord: 5 ft 3 in (1.60 m)
Bottom Chord: 4 ft 0 in (1.21 m)
Gap Between Wings: 4 ft 2 in (1.28 m)
Length: 22 ft 9 in (6.93 m)
Height: 9 ft 2 in (2.80 m)
Empty: 1,540 lbs (698 kgs)
Gross: 1,936 lbs (878 kgs)
Maximum Speed: 116 mph (186 km/h)
Service Ceiling: 19,600 ft (5,974 m)
Fuel Capacity: 20 gal (75.70 lt)
One Mercedes 180 hp (134 kw) 6-cylinder Inline type, Watercooled.
One BMW 185 hp (137 kw) 12-cylinder Vee type, Watercooled.
One Austro-Daimler 210 hp (156 kw).
Twin Spandau synchronized guns fired through the revolving propeller.

46 posted on 10/21/2005 4:45:03 PM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: Valin
"By the autumn (of 1918) the majority of the Jastas had been reequipped with D.VIIs.."

You have answered a question I have been asking myself. Since Joe Wehner had shot down two D-VIIs Iwas wondering if D-VIIs were the rule that September for Eagle Squadron.

Think from my reading that a Spad could outrun a D-VII by a little bit at medium and low altitudes. The Hispano was rated at 220 hp IIRC. Sounds like the Fokker could outdive any Allied aircraft. Way outfight one over maybe 5,000 feet? Could run away from you in a climb? Explains Luke exiting at constant altitude and emergency throttle on occasion.

Enjoyed your technical post. I can see the layers with the mind's eye.
47 posted on 10/21/2005 5:39:36 PM PDT by Iris7 ("Let me go to the house of the Father.")
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To: Iris7

If memory serves the Germans were ordered to turn ove ALL D-VII's at the end of the war.

48 posted on 10/21/2005 5:46:46 PM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: snippy_about_it
My middle girl told one fellow to be careful because I could read his mind. Flattering, what?

Actually just talk with them, see if they will tell me their jokes and stories, watch their expressions, choice of words, changes in movement, the usual. They are just kids and haven't seen many people.

The oldest girl I am working on. A case of "I'm a big girl now." She thinks I am going to scare the lads off. Truly, that is the last thing I intend. Maybe a bit on non-destructive testing though!

I feel bad about Frank Luke getting killed. He was determined to do his duty as he saw it. Luke knew that this meant death, and soon. Chose his duty over survival. That is what Honor is all about.

49 posted on 10/21/2005 6:36:18 PM PDT by Iris7 ("Let me go to the house of the Father.")
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To: Iris7
Thanks Iris7. It's good you shared Lt. Luke with us.

Good luck with the girls. :-)

50 posted on 10/21/2005 7:05:54 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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