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What does the Bible actually say about being gay?
BBC ^ | October 23, 2003 | BBC

Posted on 10/23/2003 3:53:51 AM PDT by ejdrapes

What does the Bible actually say about being gay?

Confused how two groups of church-goers can have such conflicting views about whether it's OK to be gay?

Both sides of the debate about homosexuality in the church, which threatens to split the worldwide Anglican church, hold their views sincerely and after much study. So how can their views be so contradictory?

The Bible makes very few mentions of homosexuality - lesbianism isn't mentioned at all in the Old Testament - and as the examples below show, interpretations of the verses that do exist differ hugely.

Following each of the verses below is a brief illustration of what a hardline pro- and anti-gay position might be. (Most Christians hold views somewhere in between these two stances.)

An illustration of the division can be seen by what either side might say about the friendship in the Old Testament between David and Jonathan. One verse reads: "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; dear and delightful you were to me; your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women."

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.

ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay opinion might be that the friendship between the two men was exactly that - a very close and loyal allegiance.

Similarly, the tale of Sodom is often debated. In it, Lot has two angels staying in his house. The men of Sodom surrounded the house. "They called to Lot and asked him where the men were who had entered his house that night. 'Bring them out,' they shouted, 'so that we might have intercourse with them.'"

To protect his visitors from an act which Lot describes as "wicked", he offers the crowd his two virgin daughters instead. The crowd are not satisfied and break the door down - the angels then make the intruders blind and Sodom is eventually destroyed by "fire and brimstone".

ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay argument might say this story demonstrates the immorality of homosexuality, as has been accepted for generations, hence the term sodomy. Elsewhere in Genesis, God says of the men: "Their sin is very grave." It's an example of behaviour degenerating.

PRO-GAY
Of course the men's behaviour was wicked, but it was wicked because it's a tale of sexual assault and rape. When Jesus mentions Sodom, hundreds of years later, it appears to be in a context of a discussion of hospitality, rather than one of sexual morality.

There are several verses in the Bible which are similarly contested - there are however a much smaller number of seemingly clear statements. The most famous of them is probably from Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination."

ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay position would be that this line is unambiguous. It is also repeated elsewhere in the book. The speaker of the words is God, so this is an explicit indication that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. It was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.

There is some debate about how relevant rules in the Old Testament are to Christians. Some would say they are binding, since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws. Others would say that Jesus set Christians free from the old laws, highlighting instead that people should love God and their neighbour.

Jesus himself says nothing explicitly about homosexuality. There are though two statements by him which have been interpreted as having a bearing on the subject.

"[A] man shall leave his father and mother, and be made one with his wife; and the two shall become one flesh."

ANTI-GAY
This indicates Jesus saw heterosexual relations as the proper way of behaving.

PRO-GAY
Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage

Later in the same conversation, after Jesus has spoken about divorce, the disciples say to him it is better not to marry at all. Jesus says: "That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can."

PRO-GAY
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.

ANTI-GAY
Jesus here is actually talking about people who were born incapable of having children, or people who were castrated - not about gays. He is actually saying that marriage and chastity are both within God's purpose. Jesus does appeal to the sinners, but once he has called them, he tells them to go and sin no more.

The letters of St Paul provide the other traditional support for the position that homosexuality is sinful. He writes: "God has given [people who worship false gods] up to shameful passions. Their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and their men in turn, giving up natural relations with women burn with lust for one another; males behave indecently with males and paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion."

Paul later writes: "Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolator, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or grabbers of drunkards of slanderers or swindlers, will possess the kingdom of God."

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay position might be that the word Paul uses for homosexual here could alternatively be translated as "male prostitute". In any case, Paul's writings are clearly of his time, and there are plenty of other verses which people have no difficulty in ignoring - for instance: "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." This should be viewed like that.

ANTI-GAY
Anti-gay argument might say this line is crystal clear in establishing that Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible. Paul is actually quite clearly referring to homosexual behaviour, and includes lesbianism. You can't just pretend that St Paul, who did so much to influence our understanding of Jesus, didn't know what he was talking about. He's clear that homosexuality is an offence against God and against people's own bodies.

Part of the reason the views diverge so much is because Christians think of the Bible differently. Some see it as literally the word of God, divine inspiration which humans should not question. Others see it rather as a book which is a witness to God's message, but one which was written by humans and thus has flaws.

Trying to find common ground between the two positions is no simple matter - one of the reasons that Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is having such a tricky job keeping everyone on board.

Quotations are taken from the New English Bible.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bible; homosexual; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; prisoners; scripture
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To: MEG33
Why don't we discuss fornicators,slanderers,thieves,adulterers,like we do homosexuals?

This is not an answer to your question but a thought your question brings back to mind. In the bible we see many prostitutes getting almost honorable mention. There are lots of prostitutes in the bible but the two that come to mind as honorable mention are Rahab who helps Isreal take Jerico(sp) and the 2 prostitutes that come to Solomon. I can't help but notice that these two prostitutes are more loving mothers than a lot of the carreer women and sluts of today that kill their unborn babies.

But you never every once see anywhere in the bible and honorable mention of a Sodomite. They are simply called dogs and there is never one that does anything note worthy in the bible except to try and rape other men.

51 posted on 10/23/2003 5:47:10 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: Non-Sequitur
He said the same about eating shrimp.

The original Hebrew uses two completely different words for eating shrimp and homosexual behavior.

52 posted on 10/23/2003 5:47:25 AM PDT by Alouette (Neocon Zionist Media Operative)
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To: jocon307
One might note that in order to interpret the Scripture as allowing homosexuality, one has to read that interpretation into Scripture and stretch the point rather far.

If one simply confessed all sins to God, let Him judge the issue, then read Scripture from the point of view of obedience to whatever and however the Holy Spirit leads the Christian to mature, then nowhere is one tempted to accept homosexuality as being condoned in Scripture. Quite the opposite, the God-filled inclination is to view it as an abomination.

Perhaps the better categorical label than "pro-gay vs antigay' would be 'feces-loving vs feces dispelling'.
53 posted on 10/23/2003 5:50:52 AM PDT by Cvengr (0:^))
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To: mdmathis6
That is what happens when strict adherance to scripture is not maintained. People have been under the impression that they can write things into the scriptures that aren't there and extrapolate verses to support doctrines that are nowhere therein defined. That isn't Christianity - it is Philosophy playing at religion and sheep dipping for effect.
Christians need to stand up and call it what it is.
54 posted on 10/23/2003 5:50:54 AM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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To: Fudd
There isn't anything "gay" about a homosexual lifestyle, especially when the average age of death for homosexual men is 41 years and for lesbians 44 years.
55 posted on 10/23/2003 5:55:06 AM PDT by itsinthebag
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To: biblewonk
Thank you.I believe it is the sin against nature that has the homosexual put in a different place.Paul did list these sins all together as abominations.
56 posted on 10/23/2003 5:59:09 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: punster
It also displays that some sins are more evil than others and homosexuality ranks extremely perverse. It would have been better for a single instance of submission by the father and his daughters than to condone or not oppose homosexuality, especially an attempt to corrupt messengers of God.

It's an outstanding example though of the severity in our present day situation. In Lot's case, messengers of God were being attacked by homosexuality with the consequence of the entire people and their city being destroyed.

Consider now that the highest offices of the church are being assaulted again by homosexuality. In parallel, the US is in jeopardy of divine destruction to the point that even believers might be destroyed unless we remain steadfast in our faith to Him and oppose the homosexual advance upon any and all aspects of society.
57 posted on 10/23/2003 6:00:19 AM PDT by Cvengr (0:^))
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To: Skooz
The New Testament continues to call homosexual relations a sin and an abomination.

But not Jesus. In fact, He never said a word on the subject. He had plenty to say on divorce, though, and that practice is promoted by the government. Go figure.

58 posted on 10/23/2003 6:01:52 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: MEG33
It's definitely a sin that God seems less willing to work with. Sodomites find extremely little comfort from the scriptures where as a dirty old man like myself finds lots of comfort. A good topic of debate, unlike this article, is whether or not a homo can be a Christian.
59 posted on 10/23/2003 6:02:50 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: MEG33
I thought that's what we do when we talk about bjclinton.

Most bank robbers go to jail.

NOw the slanderers "lying liberals" do get a pass.

Thus far the "fornicators, slanderers, thieves, and adulterers have not demanded and been given, their acts declared a "civil right".
60 posted on 10/23/2003 6:06:22 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Non-Sequitur
But not Jesus. In fact, He never said a word on the subject

He gave the apostles the authority to speak for him.

Matthew 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

61 posted on 10/23/2003 6:09:55 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (If it's not a baby, then you're not pregnant.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
The Gospels are a record of what Jesus said and did, which was usually to tell people what they did not know. The fact that homosexuality is a sin was well known among the Jews, as it was codified in the Law. He did not need to tell them it was sin; they knew that already.

God used the Apostle Paul to reiterate the matter in Scripture and place it in a New Covenant context.
62 posted on 10/23/2003 6:12:51 AM PDT by Skooz (All Hail the Mighty Kansas City Chiefs: 7-0 baby)
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To: ejdrapes
The only reference:

James 2: 3

And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:


63 posted on 10/23/2003 6:16:32 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: ejdrapes
"PRO-GAY
A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive."

OH geez. The classic lefty argument. You are naive, homophobic, hateful, blah blah blah blah........

So the rag knows that the Bible states David was gay?
64 posted on 10/23/2003 6:18:35 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Havoc
literally that it makes him want to puke.

Does anyone else have problems imagining God....puking?
65 posted on 10/23/2003 6:21:52 AM PDT by newcats
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To: ejdrapes
It depends on the definition of lie.
66 posted on 10/23/2003 6:26:45 AM PDT by jetson
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To: ejdrapes
bump
67 posted on 10/23/2003 6:33:41 AM PDT by VOA
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To: ejdrapes
The Bible is quite clear about homsexuality and other deviant acts, Read the Mosaic laws in detail in Exodus.

Homosexuality is a filthy, unnatural abberation.

Male and female were designed to procreate, not male and male or female and female. The fact that reproduction is only possible between two individuals of opposite sexes in the overwhelming number of higher species of animals prooves this beyond any contention.
68 posted on 10/23/2003 6:35:51 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: MEG33
Why don't we discuss fornicators,slanderers,thieves,adulterers,like we do homosexuals?

Because there are not activists for theives and adulterers trying to normalize the behavior, trying to teach its acceptance in our schools, trying to gain extra legal protection for their behavior, actively promoting the behavior, trying to demonize anyone who does not accpet the behavior, etc, etc, etc....

69 posted on 10/23/2003 6:38:50 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: MEG33
I simply think we can be hypocrites if we only concentrate on homosexuality.

It would only be hypocritical if there were activists promoting the other sins.

70 posted on 10/23/2003 6:42:53 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Fzob
Because fornicators, slanderers, thieves, adulterers are not trying to convince the whole world that the bible says it's ok to fornicate slander, steal, commit adultery and convince everyone that the above is normal and acceptable behavior.

You're obviously not familiar with the Democrats.

71 posted on 10/23/2003 8:02:07 AM PDT by Agnes Heep
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To: ejdrapes
Spinning the Bible has been the focus of anyone who has been convicted by his/her conscience and doesn't want to change. It's not a comfortable feeling to think that sin separates us from God.

72 posted on 10/23/2003 8:09:09 AM PDT by GWfan
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To: scripter
ping
73 posted on 10/23/2003 8:43:15 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Libertarianize the GOP; *Homosexual Agenda; EdReform; scripter; GrandMoM; backhoe; pram; Yehuda; ...
Thanks for the ping. There's so much here I'm not sure where to start...
74 posted on 10/23/2003 9:11:51 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: scripter
There's so much here I'm not sure where to start...
Allow me ...
Jesus himself says nothing explicitly about homosexuality. There are though two statements by him which have been interpreted as having a bearing on the subject. [Mt19:5; Mt19:11-12]
They've left out what is arguably the most important reference: Mt15:19 (see also Mk7:21) --
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

75 posted on 10/23/2003 9:22:10 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: eastsider
That's a start! :-) I've been looking for a website I found yesterday but time constraints force me to move on for now. Thanks for the post.
76 posted on 10/23/2003 9:41:22 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: ejdrapes
Lets deal with the easiest one first

From the KJV:

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

PRO-GAY A pro-gay position might be that the word Paul uses for homosexual here could alternatively be translated as "male prostitute". In any case, Paul's writings are clearly of his time, and there are plenty of other verses which people have no difficulty in ignoring - for instance: "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." This should be viewed like that.

The phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind" (commonly translated 'homosexual') is from the Greek word "arsenokoites" Strongs number 733:

(my apologies are due here. The first entry in each definition should be in greek but I don't have and cannot install a greek font on this machine)

"733 arsenokoithv arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy’-tace

from 730 and 2845; ; n m

AV-abuser of (one’s) self with mankind 1, defile (one’s) self with mankind 1; 2

1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual"

It comes form the words "arrhen" Strongs number 730 and "koite" Strongs number 2845.

"730 arrhn arrhen ar’-hrane or arshn arsen ar’-sane

probably from 142; ; adj

AV-male 4, man 3, man child 1, man child + 5207 1; 9

1) a male"

"2845 koith koite koy’-tay

from 2749; ; n f

AV-bed 2, conceive 1, chambering 1; 4

1) a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in
1a) a bed, couch
2) the marriage bed
2a) of adultery
3) cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful
3a) sexual intercourse"

Now lets look at all the possible meanings and bounce them against the bible and common sense and the culture of the times.

Arrhen always means male. Linked with koite we have:

1. Male + place for lying down. As opposed to a female place for lying down? and why would a male place for lying down be worried about getting into heaven anyway? I guess we can cross this one off the list. Makes no sense in context

2. Male + Bed. See #1

3. Male + Marriage bed. Inconsistent with the bible and the culture as there was no male-male marriage. Alternately there is no furniture going to heaven anyway. Cross this one off. Makes no sense in context. 4. Male + adultery. While male adulterers don't go to heaven Paul already mentions this just three words prior. Cross this one off too. Makes no sense in context

5. Male + cohabitation. A man leaves his father and mother to live with his wife. In that time and that culture a man lived with his parents and unmarried siblings until he got married. The houses were small and the families were large. Brothers shared the same room and probably the same bed. Also, cohabitation is not spoken against any where else in the bible. Cross this one off too.

6. Male + sexual intercourse. Normal sexual intercourse is understood to involve a man and a woman. It doesn't have an identifier before it (Have you ever seen the usage female sexual intercourse?) So if the identifier was required then this is not talking of normal sexual intercourse but sexual intercourse between 2 males. In various places in the OT and the NT this is spoken against. I think we have a winner here. This is the only interpretation that both makes sense in context and is internally consistent with the rest of the bible.

Note well that it doesn't say anything about prostitution, the act itself is the topic, not the circumstances of it.

Therefore arsenokoites can only be interpreted as 'those who practice homosexual behavior' and those who practice homosexual behavior are not getting into heaven.

77 posted on 10/23/2003 10:08:57 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: John O
(my apologies are due here. The first entry in each definition should be in greek but I don't have and cannot install a greek font on this machine)
Try doing it this way:
< font face=“symbol” > GREEK WORD </font >
For example, using the formula above, if I replace "GREEK WORD" with the word Petra, it will look like this:
Petra

78 posted on 10/23/2003 10:22:44 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: ejdrapes
(from KJV) 2 Samuel 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

PRO-GAY

A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.

Again have to check against rest of the Word for consistency. The bible says that David was a man after God's own heart. Since the rest of the bible states that God's own heart is against the practice of homosexuality we can state that David was not practicing this behavior.

A further proof to this is that when David did sin he was punished quickly and severely for it. What punishment was there for his friendship with Jonathan?

Also note that verses 17 to 27 are a song written by David to eulogize Jonathan. Some poetic license is granted here. See Psalm 133 where David describes unity in similar overwhelming terms. (unity is as the sacred annointing oil)

Also this could be a bit of a slam against Jonathans sister Michal (David's wife) who wasn't such a good wife. Jonathan loved David better than his sister did and his sister was David's wife.

"1 Samuel 20:42 And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city."

Jonathan was obviously family minded as he talks about his descendents. Not a typical 'homosexual' mindset.

In any event, assuming David practiced homosexual behavior is inconsistent with the rest of scripture

79 posted on 10/23/2003 10:43:33 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: ejdrapes
"They called to Lot and asked him where the men were who had entered his house that night. 'Bring them out,' they shouted, 'so that we might have intercourse with them.'"

A little context:

Genesis 19:4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

PRO-GAY
Of course the men's behaviour was wicked, but it was wicked because it's a tale of sexual assault and rape. When Jesus mentions Sodom, hundreds of years later, it appears to be in a context of a discussion of hospitality, rather than one of sexual morality.

As we can see from the scriptures this was not a problem of inhospitality. If "Know" was anything else other then "have sex with" it would not have been an issue.

"Hey honey, the neighbors want to come over and visit with our guests" No big deal.

"Hey honey, the neighbors want to come over and have sex with our guests" Big deal.

The fact that Lot offered his daughters to the crowd to have sex with (he makes a point that they are virgins, why?, unless the crowd was interested in sex) as a substitute for the visitors establishes the crowd's intent toward the visitors. They wanted to have sex with them.

Now since the people who came to Lots house were the men of the town and since the visitors were men and since Lot tells the crowd to have his daughters rather than perform wickedness with his visitors we can safely assume that the reason Sodom got nuked was because of homosexual behavior

Every mention that Jesus makes of Sodom uses them as an example of how horrible things will be for those who refuse Him (exception being Luke 17:29 where He uses them as an example of the suddenness of destruction when the chosen people are removed). He makes no mention of hospitality.

80 posted on 10/23/2003 10:58:50 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: ejdrapes
"You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination." Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.

The penalty for lying with a women during her sickness is somewhat akin to shunning. The rest of the sexual sins, dealing with adultery or perverse acts are punishable by death. (See also 1 Cor 5 where the sinner committing incest is to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that is, shunned.)

Also note that the prohibition against homosexual behavior (and beastiality) is repeated twice (chaps 18 and 20) while the rest are stated just once.

81 posted on 10/23/2003 11:16:53 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Non-Sequitur
He said the same about eating shrimp.

Well, whadaya expect Him to say? They didn't have cocktail sauce back then.
82 posted on 10/23/2003 11:19:20 AM PDT by Xenalyte (I may not agree with your bumper sticker, but I'll defend to the death your right to stick it)
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To: MEG33
Why don't we discuss fornicators,slanderers,thieves,adulterers,like we do homosexuals?

Because this isn't a Clinton-bashing thread!
83 posted on 10/23/2003 11:20:33 AM PDT by Xenalyte (I may not agree with your bumper sticker, but I'll defend to the death your right to stick it)
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To: ejdrapes
"[A] man shall leave his father and mother, and be made one with his wife; and the two shall become one flesh."

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

(Might as well include the full question)

PRO-GAY
Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage

Why does a man leave his father and mother? Only to join with his wife, because he is male and she is female. (this also supports the discussion on arsenokoites) Notice that he didn't mention anything at all about 'homosexual' marriage. Perhaps because the rest of scripture outlaws it.

(lay up)

84 posted on 10/23/2003 11:21:48 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: ejdrapes
Amazing how the 'pro homosexual' will twist every statement made by GOD so it will appear He is not against homosexuality.

No matter how it is whitewashed in an attempt to make it normal, it is clearly an abomination.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out, just common sense and logic.

85 posted on 10/23/2003 11:28:33 AM PDT by Dustbunny
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To: Havoc
I hope you know I wasn't extrapolating anything....I've heard that whole passage regarding David and Jonathan being used to justify homosexual behavior...I don't think it does supports homosexuality at all! (Though a careful study of it should prod more Christian men to loosen up with each other and to explore the potential richness of Christian male friendships!)
86 posted on 10/23/2003 11:48:27 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: ejdrapes
It's all just sodomites trying to use scripture to justify their sin , they don't want to worship God, they want to worship whats between their legs ,simple as that!
87 posted on 10/23/2003 11:48:44 AM PDT by Gottwnz (Nuke Mecca- hey, it's a start!)
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To: ejdrapes
"That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can."

Matt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

PRO-GAY
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.

This one is so far out its hard to even understand where they are coming from. Jesus doesn't talk at all about relationships with God. He's talking about marriage and how it is forever except for when one committs adultery. He doesn't state that anyone who is not capable of marriage is ok to practice homosexual behavior.

The thing that is difficult to accept is that it is better to remain single (and thus celebate) and that only those for who it is given can do it. The ability to remain a lifelong celebate is a gift. These eunichs are to devote themselves to the Lord's work more fully as they won't have a wife or family to take up their time. The rest of us are allowed to marry (at no penalty of God's regard to us note).

You can easily infer from this that if you find celibacy too hard for you, you should marry (as Paul states in his letters)

As a good study though lets look at the word eunichs. This is strongs number 2135.

"2135 eunoucov eunouchos yoo-noo’-khos

from eune (a bed) and 2192; TDNT-2:765,277; n m

AV-eunuch 8; 8

1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
1a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the women’s apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs
1b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1b1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in #Ac 8:27-39.
1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage
The first usage in Matt 19:12 is Def 1c. the second is 1b and the last is 1d. three different uses of the same word. But none of them mean arsenokoites.

88 posted on 10/23/2003 11:56:53 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: eastsider
It shows on my screen as "petra"

I have no greek font at all. Company policy I guess. I can't even load one. (which blows my mind as this is an engineering shop)

89 posted on 10/23/2003 11:59:36 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: scripter
if you could ping the troups back here. I've posted some answers but they may need refining and I can always use improvement.

Thanks

90 posted on 10/23/2003 12:00:49 PM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Pete
Thank you for pointing that out. If I may be permitted to cite a non-Biblical source for a moment:
"You're leaving me," she asserted in a flat voice.

"Yes, Bonny Bones, I must ride south like the wind," Fafhrd admitted hurriedly. "A lifelong comrade's in immense peril."

"A man, of course," she divined with the same tonelessness. "Even Ghoulish men save their greatest love for their male swordmates."

"It's a different sort of love," Fafhrd started to argue as he untied the mare from the thorn tree . . .

From The Swords of Lankhmar, by Fritz Leiber.

I suppose that the gay lobby would have us believe that Leiber was actually hinting that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were secret lovers.

Of course, any attempt to make King David out to be gay ignores the fact that his great weakness as portrayed in the Bible was not for men but for women. He had numerous wives, and the sin that almost brought down his kingdom was his affair with Bathsheba and subsequent murder-by-proxy of her husband.

Oi vey.

91 posted on 10/23/2003 12:02:03 PM PDT by Buggman (Jesus Saves--the rest of you take full damage.)
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To: ejdrapes
Such ridiculous nonsense. God HATES homsexuality. It's VERY clear for those that wish to see.
92 posted on 10/23/2003 12:02:44 PM PDT by nmh
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To: ejdrapes
This is old and tired, and seems to follow the arguments put forth by Daniel Helminiak.

Olliff and Hodges demolish the "pro-gay" arguments here and here.

These are very long reads, but WELL worth the time.

93 posted on 10/23/2003 12:08:19 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Dustbunny
Amazing how the 'pro homosexual' will twist every statement made by GOD so it will appear He is not against homosexuality.
Twisting scripture is the father of lies' forte:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" [Ps91:11-12]
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" [Deut6:16]
[Mt4:5-7]

And all those who likewise twist scripture are the devil's spawn:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [John 8:44]

94 posted on 10/23/2003 12:08:19 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: Non-Sequitur
But not Jesus. In fact, He never said a word on the subject. He had plenty to say on divorce, though, and that practice is promoted by the government. Go figure.

I agree with you on divorce, however:

Just how many times did the subject of homosexuality come up with Jesus? How many Jews came up to Him and tried to trap Him into saying that barebacking is okay? None. What Jesus did do is endorse the Torah, which is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality.

95 posted on 10/23/2003 12:15:28 PM PDT by Buggman (Jesus Saves--the rest of you take full damage.)
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To: StonyBurk
In New Testament Greek in similar terms. the interpretation in terms of anti-Gay-- or Gay is ethocentric and junk science in other words B.S.

How so? Were there no homosexuals back then or something?

96 posted on 10/23/2003 12:16:05 PM PDT by stands2reason ("What you see at fight club is a generation of men raised by women." -- Chuck Palahniuk)
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To: newcats
I think there were some words "I will spew thee out of my mouth" and it had to do with lukewarm Christians...
97 posted on 10/23/2003 12:23:05 PM PDT by stands2reason ("What you see at fight club is a generation of men raised by women." -- Chuck Palahniuk)
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To: stands2reason
"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinithians 6:9-10

This means an un-repentant, practicing gay will NOT go to heaven. Repentance includes STOPPING the sin. Too bad for the gay bishop who left his wife to live in sin with a man.

The Bible is very clear-homosexuality is not just a sin, but an abomnation to God.
98 posted on 10/23/2003 12:25:18 PM PDT by Cyclops08
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To: Cyclops08
The translation of arsenokoitai as "homosexual" in this passage is misleading. It's funny that the Bible translation uses "homosexual," because it is never translated that way in any other text.
99 posted on 10/23/2003 12:35:07 PM PDT by Kleon ("I'm hanging on to a Solid Rock, made before the foundation of the world" -- Bob Dylan)
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To: Cyclops08
I've always wondered why it's not more clear. Is coveting your neighbour's ox a greater sin than homosexuality?
100 posted on 10/23/2003 12:37:20 PM PDT by Kleon ("I'm hanging on to a Solid Rock, made before the foundation of the world" -- Bob Dylan)
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