Skip to comments.What does the Bible actually say about being gay?
Posted on 10/23/2003 3:53:51 AM PDT by ejdrapes
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This is not an answer to your question but a thought your question brings back to mind. In the bible we see many prostitutes getting almost honorable mention. There are lots of prostitutes in the bible but the two that come to mind as honorable mention are Rahab who helps Isreal take Jerico(sp) and the 2 prostitutes that come to Solomon. I can't help but notice that these two prostitutes are more loving mothers than a lot of the carreer women and sluts of today that kill their unborn babies.
But you never every once see anywhere in the bible and honorable mention of a Sodomite. They are simply called dogs and there is never one that does anything note worthy in the bible except to try and rape other men.
The original Hebrew uses two completely different words for eating shrimp and homosexual behavior.
But not Jesus. In fact, He never said a word on the subject. He had plenty to say on divorce, though, and that practice is promoted by the government. Go figure.
He gave the apostles the authority to speak for him.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
James 2: 3
And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Because there are not activists for theives and adulterers trying to normalize the behavior, trying to teach its acceptance in our schools, trying to gain extra legal protection for their behavior, actively promoting the behavior, trying to demonize anyone who does not accpet the behavior, etc, etc, etc....
It would only be hypocritical if there were activists promoting the other sins.
You're obviously not familiar with the Democrats.
There's so much here I'm not sure where to start...Allow me ...
Jesus himself says nothing explicitly about homosexuality. There are though two statements by him which have been interpreted as having a bearing on the subject. [Mt19:5; Mt19:11-12]They've left out what is arguably the most important reference: Mt15:19 (see also Mk7:21) --
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
From the KJV:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
PRO-GAY A pro-gay position might be that the word Paul uses for homosexual here could alternatively be translated as "male prostitute". In any case, Paul's writings are clearly of his time, and there are plenty of other verses which people have no difficulty in ignoring - for instance: "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." This should be viewed like that.
The phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind" (commonly translated 'homosexual') is from the Greek word "arsenokoites" Strongs number 733:
(my apologies are due here. The first entry in each definition should be in greek but I don't have and cannot install a greek font on this machine)
"733 arsenokoithv arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy-tace
from 730 and 2845; ; n m
AV-abuser of (ones) self with mankind 1, defile (ones) self with mankind 1; 2
1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual"
It comes form the words "arrhen" Strongs number 730 and "koite" Strongs number 2845.
"730 arrhn arrhen ar-hrane or arshn arsen ar-sane
probably from 142; ; adj
AV-male 4, man 3, man child 1, man child + 5207 1; 9
1) a male"
"2845 koith koite koy-tay
from 2749; ; n f
AV-bed 2, conceive 1, chambering 1; 4
1) a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in
1a) a bed, couch
2) the marriage bed
2a) of adultery
3) cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful
3a) sexual intercourse"
Now lets look at all the possible meanings and bounce them against the bible and common sense and the culture of the times.
Arrhen always means male. Linked with koite we have:
1. Male + place for lying down. As opposed to a female place for lying down? and why would a male place for lying down be worried about getting into heaven anyway? I guess we can cross this one off the list. Makes no sense in context
2. Male + Bed. See #1
3. Male + Marriage bed. Inconsistent with the bible and the culture as there was no male-male marriage. Alternately there is no furniture going to heaven anyway. Cross this one off. Makes no sense in context. 4. Male + adultery. While male adulterers don't go to heaven Paul already mentions this just three words prior. Cross this one off too. Makes no sense in context
5. Male + cohabitation. A man leaves his father and mother to live with his wife. In that time and that culture a man lived with his parents and unmarried siblings until he got married. The houses were small and the families were large. Brothers shared the same room and probably the same bed. Also, cohabitation is not spoken against any where else in the bible. Cross this one off too.
6. Male + sexual intercourse. Normal sexual intercourse is understood to involve a man and a woman. It doesn't have an identifier before it (Have you ever seen the usage female sexual intercourse?) So if the identifier was required then this is not talking of normal sexual intercourse but sexual intercourse between 2 males. In various places in the OT and the NT this is spoken against. I think we have a winner here. This is the only interpretation that both makes sense in context and is internally consistent with the rest of the bible.
Note well that it doesn't say anything about prostitution, the act itself is the topic, not the circumstances of it.
Therefore arsenokoites can only be interpreted as 'those who practice homosexual behavior' and those who practice homosexual behavior are not getting into heaven.
(my apologies are due here. The first entry in each definition should be in greek but I don't have and cannot install a greek font on this machine)Try doing it this way:
< font face=symbol > GREEK WORD </font >For example, using the formula above, if I replace "GREEK WORD" with the word Petra, it will look like this:
A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.
Again have to check against rest of the Word for consistency. The bible says that David was a man after God's own heart. Since the rest of the bible states that God's own heart is against the practice of homosexuality we can state that David was not practicing this behavior.
A further proof to this is that when David did sin he was punished quickly and severely for it. What punishment was there for his friendship with Jonathan?
Also note that verses 17 to 27 are a song written by David to eulogize Jonathan. Some poetic license is granted here. See Psalm 133 where David describes unity in similar overwhelming terms. (unity is as the sacred annointing oil)
Also this could be a bit of a slam against Jonathans sister Michal (David's wife) who wasn't such a good wife. Jonathan loved David better than his sister did and his sister was David's wife.
"1 Samuel 20:42 And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city."
Jonathan was obviously family minded as he talks about his descendents. Not a typical 'homosexual' mindset.
In any event, assuming David practiced homosexual behavior is inconsistent with the rest of scripture
A little context:
Genesis 19:4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
Of course the men's behaviour was wicked, but it was wicked because it's a tale of sexual assault and rape. When Jesus mentions Sodom, hundreds of years later, it appears to be in a context of a discussion of hospitality, rather than one of sexual morality.
As we can see from the scriptures this was not a problem of inhospitality. If "Know" was anything else other then "have sex with" it would not have been an issue.
"Hey honey, the neighbors want to come over and visit with our guests" No big deal.
"Hey honey, the neighbors want to come over and have sex with our guests" Big deal.
The fact that Lot offered his daughters to the crowd to have sex with (he makes a point that they are virgins, why?, unless the crowd was interested in sex) as a substitute for the visitors establishes the crowd's intent toward the visitors. They wanted to have sex with them.
Now since the people who came to Lots house were the men of the town and since the visitors were men and since Lot tells the crowd to have his daughters rather than perform wickedness with his visitors we can safely assume that the reason Sodom got nuked was because of homosexual behavior
Every mention that Jesus makes of Sodom uses them as an example of how horrible things will be for those who refuse Him (exception being Luke 17:29 where He uses them as an example of the suddenness of destruction when the chosen people are removed). He makes no mention of hospitality.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.
The penalty for lying with a women during her sickness is somewhat akin to shunning. The rest of the sexual sins, dealing with adultery or perverse acts are punishable by death. (See also 1 Cor 5 where the sinner committing incest is to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that is, shunned.)
Also note that the prohibition against homosexual behavior (and beastiality) is repeated twice (chaps 18 and 20) while the rest are stated just once.
Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
(Might as well include the full question)
Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage
Why does a man leave his father and mother? Only to join with his wife, because he is male and she is female. (this also supports the discussion on arsenokoites) Notice that he didn't mention anything at all about 'homosexual' marriage. Perhaps because the rest of scripture outlaws it.
No matter how it is whitewashed in an attempt to make it normal, it is clearly an abomination.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out, just common sense and logic.
Matt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mothers womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heavens sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.
This one is so far out its hard to even understand where they are coming from. Jesus doesn't talk at all about relationships with God. He's talking about marriage and how it is forever except for when one committs adultery. He doesn't state that anyone who is not capable of marriage is ok to practice homosexual behavior.
The thing that is difficult to accept is that it is better to remain single (and thus celebate) and that only those for who it is given can do it. The ability to remain a lifelong celebate is a gift. These eunichs are to devote themselves to the Lord's work more fully as they won't have a wife or family to take up their time. The rest of us are allowed to marry (at no penalty of God's regard to us note).
You can easily infer from this that if you find celibacy too hard for you, you should marry (as Paul states in his letters)
As a good study though lets look at the word eunichs. This is strongs number 2135.
"2135 eunoucov eunouchos yoo-noo-khos
from eune (a bed) and 2192; TDNT-2:765,277; n m
AV-eunuch 8; 8
1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
1a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the womens apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs
1b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1b1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in #Ac 8:27-39.
1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage
The first usage in Matt 19:12 is Def 1c. the second is 1b and the last is 1d. three different uses of the same word. But none of them mean arsenokoites.
I have no greek font at all. Company policy I guess. I can't even load one. (which blows my mind as this is an engineering shop)
"You're leaving me," she asserted in a flat voice.I suppose that the gay lobby would have us believe that Leiber was actually hinting that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were secret lovers.
"Yes, Bonny Bones, I must ride south like the wind," Fafhrd admitted hurriedly. "A lifelong comrade's in immense peril."
"A man, of course," she divined with the same tonelessness. "Even Ghoulish men save their greatest love for their male swordmates."
"It's a different sort of love," Fafhrd started to argue as he untied the mare from the thorn tree . . .
From The Swords of Lankhmar, by Fritz Leiber.
Of course, any attempt to make King David out to be gay ignores the fact that his great weakness as portrayed in the Bible was not for men but for women. He had numerous wives, and the sin that almost brought down his kingdom was his affair with Bathsheba and subsequent murder-by-proxy of her husband.
These are very long reads, but WELL worth the time.
Amazing how the 'pro homosexual' will twist every statement made by GOD so it will appear He is not against homosexuality.Twisting scripture is the father of lies' forte:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:[Mt4:5-7]" 'He will command his angels concerning you,Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" [Deut6:16]
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" [Ps91:11-12]
And all those who likewise twist scripture are the devil's spawn:
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [John 8:44]
I agree with you on divorce, however:
Just how many times did the subject of homosexuality come up with Jesus? How many Jews came up to Him and tried to trap Him into saying that barebacking is okay? None. What Jesus did do is endorse the Torah, which is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality.
How so? Were there no homosexuals back then or something?