Posted on 10/23/2003 3:53:51 AM PDT by ejdrapes
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
PRO-GAY
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.
The penalty for lying with a women during her sickness is somewhat akin to shunning. The rest of the sexual sins, dealing with adultery or perverse acts are punishable by death. (See also 1 Cor 5 where the sinner committing incest is to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that is, shunned.)
Also note that the prohibition against homosexual behavior (and beastiality) is repeated twice (chaps 18 and 20) while the rest are stated just once.
Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
(Might as well include the full question)
PRO-GAY
Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage
Why does a man leave his father and mother? Only to join with his wife, because he is male and she is female. (this also supports the discussion on arsenokoites) Notice that he didn't mention anything at all about 'homosexual' marriage. Perhaps because the rest of scripture outlaws it.
(lay up)
No matter how it is whitewashed in an attempt to make it normal, it is clearly an abomination.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out, just common sense and logic.
Matt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
PRO-GAY
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.
This one is so far out its hard to even understand where they are coming from. Jesus doesn't talk at all about relationships with God. He's talking about marriage and how it is forever except for when one committs adultery. He doesn't state that anyone who is not capable of marriage is ok to practice homosexual behavior.
The thing that is difficult to accept is that it is better to remain single (and thus celebate) and that only those for who it is given can do it. The ability to remain a lifelong celebate is a gift. These eunichs are to devote themselves to the Lord's work more fully as they won't have a wife or family to take up their time. The rest of us are allowed to marry (at no penalty of God's regard to us note).
You can easily infer from this that if you find celibacy too hard for you, you should marry (as Paul states in his letters)
As a good study though lets look at the word eunichs. This is strongs number 2135.
"2135 eunoucov eunouchos yoo-noo’-khos
from eune (a bed) and 2192; TDNT-2:765,277; n m
AV-eunuch 8; 8
1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
1a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the women’s apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs
1b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1b1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in #Ac 8:27-39.
1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage
The first usage in Matt 19:12 is Def 1c. the second is 1b and the last is 1d. three different uses of the same word. But none of them mean arsenokoites.
I have no greek font at all. Company policy I guess. I can't even load one. (which blows my mind as this is an engineering shop)
Thanks
"You're leaving me," she asserted in a flat voice.I suppose that the gay lobby would have us believe that Leiber was actually hinting that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were secret lovers."Yes, Bonny Bones, I must ride south like the wind," Fafhrd admitted hurriedly. "A lifelong comrade's in immense peril."
"A man, of course," she divined with the same tonelessness. "Even Ghoulish men save their greatest love for their male swordmates."
"It's a different sort of love," Fafhrd started to argue as he untied the mare from the thorn tree . . .
From The Swords of Lankhmar, by Fritz Leiber.
Of course, any attempt to make King David out to be gay ignores the fact that his great weakness as portrayed in the Bible was not for men but for women. He had numerous wives, and the sin that almost brought down his kingdom was his affair with Bathsheba and subsequent murder-by-proxy of her husband.
Oi vey.
Olliff and Hodges demolish the "pro-gay" arguments here and here.
These are very long reads, but WELL worth the time.
Amazing how the 'pro homosexual' will twist every statement made by GOD so it will appear He is not against homosexuality.Twisting scripture is the father of lies' forte:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:[Mt4:5-7]" 'He will command his angels concerning you,Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" [Deut6:16]
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" [Ps91:11-12]
And all those who likewise twist scripture are the devil's spawn:
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [John 8:44]
I agree with you on divorce, however:
Just how many times did the subject of homosexuality come up with Jesus? How many Jews came up to Him and tried to trap Him into saying that barebacking is okay? None. What Jesus did do is endorse the Torah, which is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality.
How so? Were there no homosexuals back then or something?
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