Libertarian Party National Convention - on C-SPAN LIVE!

C-SPAN | 5/30/04

[Libloather]

Some candidate Jeffery Diket was just on stage. He was jeered by the crowd.

Not good.

[Libloather]

David Hollist in stage now. He wants the military to leave Iraq.

[TomGuy]

I happened to watch some of it yesterday afternoon.

I wasn't impressed at all with their foreign policy positions. They, like the Dems and Constitution Party, don't seem to have a clue about the severity of the War on Terrorism.

[Thane_Banquo]

The common wisdom is that libertarians are conservatives with socially liberal positions. I disagree. Most libertarians are liberals who have partially admitted the failure of socialism. If they were allowed to govern, most would not be much different than Democrats

[ChadGore]

Both Libertarians on camera at once ?!

This IS an event !

[Dimez Apart]

'A vote for a Libertarian is a vote for Kerry!'
Just wanted to try that on.

[thoughtomator]

The social-conservative libertarians are not part of the Libertarian party, thus the appearance that libertarians are similar to left-wingers.

[Captain Rabbit]

"The common wisdom is that libertarians are conservatives with socially liberal positions. I disagree. Most libertarians are liberals who have partially admitted the failure of socialism. If they were allowed to govern, most would not be much different than Democrats"

The common wisdom is that Republicans are conservatives through and through. The exponential increase in government spending over the past century has got me wondering... If we continue to allow them to govern, how long until we start calling each other 'comrade'?

[Captain Rabbit]

"Both Libertarians on camera at once ?!
This IS an event !"

LOL. That's low, but very well done.

[Dane]

They, like the Dems and Constitution Party, don't seem to have a clue about the severity of the War on Terrorism

Well with marijuana and drugs as their(Libertarian) defining issue, it's not hard to see why.

[Copernicus]

They, like the Dems and Constitution Party, don't seem to have a clue about the severity of the War on Terrorism.

I would argue otherwise.

Libertarians have consistently supported arming Pilots (among other Americans);have stated the value of the Constitutional Concept of Letters of Marque and Reprisal for use against non-governmental entities which attack the United States, examined the fundamental flaws inherent in "entangling foreign alliances" and properly ridiculed the idea of "bringing Democracy to Iraq". (Democracy, for those who overlook this point, was generally an epithet until well into the 20th Century, most commonly defined as two wolves and a sheep who vote on what to eat for dinner)

Best regards,

[ChadGore]

Which Cspan ? 1 2 or 3 ?

[Libloather]

Which Cspan?

#1. Right now they're doing a special on Canadian pot...

[Dane]

C-Span 1. Now they are are showing a pro-marijuana video, like wow dude.

[ActionNewsBill]

The common wisdom is that Republicans are conservatives through and through. The exponential increase in government spending over the past century has got me wondering... If we continue to allow them to govern, how long until we start calling each other 'comrade'?

Captain Rabbit
Member since May 28, 2004

Brave talk for a "newbie"

Somebody had to say it...welcome aboard...you make some good points.

[Dane]

Now they are praising Canada in the pro-marijuana video.

[PetroniDE]

Watched a little of it yesterday and today. The Texas State GOP Convention is much larger than that crowd.

A Vote for a 3rd party candidate in the Presidential election is a wasted vote, IMHO. The electoral mathematics makes it impossible for a 3rd party candidate to win, regardless of their ideology.

[xrp]

If they were allowed to govern, most would not be much different than Democrats.

And the Republicans are different???

SURGE OF SOCIALISM UNDER GEORGE BUSH

What continues to amaze me is that so many "conservatives" keep on giving the Republicans blind passes.

[Tamzee]

And just like the liberal propaganda, your cute little chart completely ignores the event of 9/11. There is no way to be intellectually honest and compare the two presidential terms.

[tpaine]

Thane_Banquo wrote:

The common wisdom is that libertarians are conservatives with socially liberal positions

The truth is that libertarians are conservatives that defend our constitutions 'classically liberal' positions on individual liberty.

--- Some principles of classical liberalism:

An ethical emphasis on the individual as a rights-bearer prior to the existence of any state, community, or society,

The support of the right of property carried to its economic conclusion, a free-market system,

The desire for a limited constitutional government to protect individuals' rights from others and from its own expansion.

[xrp]

You must not be able to read that well. This chart does not include military spending outlays.

[FrankR]

"The common wisdom is that Republicans are conservatives through and through. The exponential increase in government spending over the past century has got me wondering... If we continue to allow them to govern, how long until we start calling each other 'comrade'?"

I don't follow your logic, with the "comrade" comment. If government spending is a 'trademark' of [implied] communism, how do you explain the bread lines in the old USSR?

The one thing that pops immediately to mind in posts like these is, MOST of the giveaway and government largesse programs were installed by democRATs, not Republicans.

The pattern I've seen in my 58 years on Earth, is we'll have 8 or 12 years of democRATs and then the country gets into such a mess, they elect the Republicans to come and and fix things up again...and usually it takes a bunch of money.

Case in point, king william of Monica gutting the military; now we need it.

The impression I get is the rats get in for a while and "play", and then the responsible adults have to come in and straighten things out.

The rats don't tend to business, that is, other than unending giveaway programs...aka...money-for-votes. They don't stand up to tyrants and despots, they just hand over "protection money" and then try to claim they've created "peace".

Well, you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk...case in point, that whacko in N. Korea...everytime he runs out of cash, he rattles his nuclear sabres.

My definition of libertarians is that they are liberals who would "prefer" a balanced budget, so long as it doesn't take away from their environmental causes, and doesn't make drug illegal.

[Austin Willard Wright]

Where have you been? Even the pro-war Heritage Foundation thinks Dubya is a spendthrift compared to Clinton in *domestic"* policy. The key example, of course, is Dubya's Medicare Boondogle, the most significant expansions in the welfare state since the Great Society.

[Tamzee]

Save your insults.

The financial impact from 9/11 was much greater and more complex than just military spending. Just to mention a scant few areas.... bailing out the airlines, billions to NYC to rebuild and pay off the families, creating Dept of Homeland Security, huge increases in unemployment benefits paid, money dished to all states for beefing up security against new attacks, pumping up international aid to various countries that are helping us hunt down terrorists (building a nifty new port in Yemen, for example), millions to the FBI for the computer upgrades they begged for through the Clinton administration, etc...

You may disagree with the spending but to pretend that 9/11's only financial impact was manufacturing a few extra Patriot missiles is not accurate.

[xrp]

My definition of libertarians is that they are liberals who would "prefer" a balanced budget, so long as it doesn't take away from their environmental causes, and doesn't make drug illegal.

The dictionary seems to disagree with you.

lib·er·tar·i·an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-târ-n) n.

One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.

One who believes in free will.

One who holds to the doctrine of free will.
\Lib`er*ta"ri*an\ (-t[=a]"r[i^]*an), a. [See Liberty.] Pertaining to liberty, or to the doctrine of free will, as opposed to the doctrine of necessity.

someone who believes the doctrine of free will

[Austin Willard Wright]

Did the "rats" install the most significant expansion in the welfare state since the Great Society: the Medicare prescription bill? Face it Dubya is little different than Kerry. Even the non-libertarian Heritage Foundation has condemned his a spendthrift. The Libertarians will at least give the voters a choice.

[Austin Willard Wright]

Dubya showed no interest in cutting domestic spending prior to 9-11. Making excuses for him simply won't work.

[xrp]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

$400,000,000,000.00++++++++ for Mediscare/socialised health care

Dept of Agriculture subsidies

Dept of Education

Yes, all extremely important to the war on terrorism.

[Tamzee]

Where have YOU been? Even Newt Gingrich supported the Medicare "Boondogle".

Newt Gingrich: Conservatives Should Vote 'Yes' on Medicare

[Tamzee]

Now you're being silly... I didn't say that all spending increases came from 9/11. I said that you can't compare Bush and Clinton domestic spending without acknowledging that 9/11 played a great role in bumping up spending across the board.

[headsonpikes]

I kind of like the term 'disestablishmentarian'.

Dismantle the Ministry of Truth is the first plank of our platform.

;^)

[Dane]

Tamsey don't waste your time with AWW. He is a die hard Libertarian.(pro-terrorist, pro-pot)

Earlier on this thread I made a generic comment about Libertarians being basically pro-terrorist because their defining issue is marijuana, and not more than 10 minutes after my comment there is a pro-marijuana video being shown at at the Libertarian convention.

After the proaganda video for Steve Kubby, they had their candidate(Frank Gonzales) in Florida going against Pubbie Lincoln Diaz Ballart.

His speech, basically was the demos are scared of Congressman Ballart, but the Libertarians are taking up the democrat party cause.

Libertarians are stealth democrats, IMO.

[Tamzee]

Gotcha... and some are about as "stealthy" as Michael Moore ;-)

[xrp]

Libertarians are stealth democrats, IMO.

I guess this makes Greens stealth Republicans then. It also makes Republicans stealth democrats, also. IMO.

[Military family member]

So that's what this was...I thought my children had left the TV on Nick

[tacticalogic]

Don't go getting objective on us, you're screwing up the thread.

[gargoyle]

...Seems that when "some" republicans govern, they're not much different than democrats...

[Dane]

I guess this makes Greens stealth Republicans then. It also makes Republicans stealth democrats, also. IMO

Get back to me when you have evidence of a greenie Congressional candidate taking up the Pubbie cause towards a demo at the Greenie convention.

[Jack Black]

I agree that military spending had to go up. But that is not all Bush spent money on. There is the huge federal Department of Homeland Security, the TSA fast food rejects who are some how supposedly making us safer. There is the single biggest new entitlement giveaway in 20 years, the prescription drug thing. There are the huge pork-laden omnibus and transportation bills that have been signed year after year.

I don't think 9/11 is a blanket excuse for most of this. The facts are Bush did not run as a real conservative and he is not governing like one.

[Dimez Apart]

Yes, 1st vote was a three way tie. Here's to confusion!

[xrp]

Nah man, but what always ruffles Bushbot Republicans' feathers is the "Libertarians steal Republican votes" or some rubbish of that nature...

Florida 2000 Presidential returns

Bush - 2,912,790 ||| Gore - 2,912,253 ||| Nader - 97,488

[Vis Numar]

Badnarik-256
Nolan-256
Russo-258

Where did all the Libertarians here flee to?

[Vis Numar]

Opp,s Badnarik got 246, he'll be forced out next ballot.

[tpaine]

FrankR wrote:

My definition of libertarians is that they are liberals who would "prefer" a balanced budget, so long as it doesn't take away from their environmental causes, and doesn't make drug illegal

We demand a lot more than a balanced budget.
-- What 'environmental causes' are you writing about?

And, -- 'making drugs illegal' is just one in a long line of constitutional violations the socialistic republocrat coalition has committed in their last hundred years of political control over our republic.
- We are long overdue to throw these socialistic factions out of power.

[Dimez Apart]

Don't know, maybe their the guys on c-span yelling russo and nolan.

[gargoyle]

...Them's fightin' words, partner. I agree with yer, and I got yer back...

[xrp]

I thought this one was rather funny myself:

South Dakota Precincts counted: 100%

Evans, Kurt (Libertarian) 3,071 Johnson, Tim P. (Democrat) - Incumbent 167,481 Thune, John R. (Republicrat) 166,954

167,481 - 166,954 = 527!

[tiamat]

ChadGore wrote:

Both Libertarians on camera at once ?!

This IS an event !

---

"Best.... Line.... Ever!"

( to paraphrase Comic Book Guy)

[Thane_Banquo]

Some libertarians defend the constitution, but others have the same pacifist emotionalism common to liberals, which is why they don't support the war on terror. Ask libertarian Neal Boortz. He won't support the libertarian candidate for president because the party thinks terrorism is not a serious threat.

[Libloather]

Badnarik got 246, he'll be forced out next ballot.

Badnarik wins...

[FrankR]

"'making drugs illegal' is just one in a long line of constitutional violations the socialistic republocrat coalition has committed in their last hundred years of political control over our republic. - We are long overdue to throw these socialistic factions out of power."

I suppose, wrapped in the idealistic front of the Libertarians, they probably have the best of intentions, and I can even agree with their "advertised" causes...protecting the Constitution and all that; but - IMHO - none will ever be elected.

There is a saying - "perception is reality" - and most of the libertarians I have met, or read about, or see postings from present pretty good arguments when it comes to their stance on the Constitution and the budget...but mention "drugs", and their composure fails them.

Case in point - you reply specifically point to the drug issue...as "just one in a long line of constitutional violations..."...but we've all seen very few of those other "contitutional violations" that Libertarians are so adament about correcting.

For instance, what is the Libertarians' views on homosexuality and gay marriage; how about tobacco - you had the perfect chance to stand up and be counted about the "state" outlawing "substances" with the tobacco issue...we heard not a peep. That would have been an ideal case for the Libertarians to back, and chase...for it could have served as a great precedent for your drug legalization argument(s).

How 'bout a stance on immigration, or abortion; how about religion? I know 5 Libertarians personally, and they are all professed Atheists.

Then there's the Taliban and Terrorism; or even just something everyday like, gas prices...which have been all over the board.

How about education - except for the money spent on it, I've heard very little from Libertarians about the educational agenda in the public schools, like schools promoting the homosexual agenda, or graduates not being able to read their own diploma. How about school discipline, and the general dumbing down of America's children.

And even related to their "pet" issue, drugs; I haven't heard a word about exhobitant drug prices for senior citizens who actually NEED DRUGS for something other than recreational use. Most Libertarians are of young enough age, that if they started now, they might get something done about the problem before THEY become senior citizens. It follows, that a strong campaign about controlling legal drug prices might give the party some credibility when and if they ever got legalizing THEIR drugs, on the agenda.

But usually - and I said USUALLY - when we see a Libertarians view, it's something murky about balancing budgets, etc...and then it finds its way around to the drug issue. Even if it doesn't mention the drug issue, let someone else say it they go into overdrive arguing against anyone who doesn't agree with their stance.

So, if perception is reality, maybe at some of those backroom meetings at Denny's the Libertarians should start working on their message, because based on poll numbers for the past elections, a Denny's supper is all you're getting out it.

It is my PERCEPTION that the Libertarian Party has some good intentions, but that they are fanatical about the legalization of drugs...therefore, they will never get my support or vote.

And as far as promoting your agenda over a "socialistic republocrat coalition", you're going to have to lose the "Cheech and Chong Go To Washington" image to ever get past the voters who have not pickled their brains on drugs.

That one issue - drug legalization - will forever doom the LIbertarians to a fringe constituency; This country has been screwed up enough by illegal drugs and we certainly don't want to make legalized cocaine-laced after dinner mints a standard in our society.

So, if the Libertarians are those that subscribe to the "free will doctrine", the big question is, why don't they respect the "free will" of the rest of us who DO NOT want legalized drugs. Like liberals, Libertarians are not for the greater good, but for isolated wants and desires of a few, rabidly condemning anyone who doesn't subscribe to their doctrine.

I've watched this board through the past 3 elections, and every 4 years, near election time, the Libertarians are here touting their message again. It's sad though, that a party of single-issue voters, such as the Libertarians, can be buried by the likes of bill clinton, algore, and kerry.

But unless the Libertarian Party is just a cover organization to spout Constitutional idealisms re-state your selling points for drug legalization, maybe you all should re-think your strategies a little...huh?

Incrementalism will probably win out, and you'll probably get your drugs legaized eventually...but by then you'll be needing things for arthritis, high blood pressure, gout, and other assorted senior maladies.