Posted on 02/17/2005 5:25:26 PM PST by bikepacker67
An autopsy revealed 19-year-old Jason Tharp drowned last week during water survival training at the Marine Corps boot camp at Parris Island, S.C.
Video shot on Feb. 7, the day before Tharp's death, by NBC affiliate WIS-TV in Columbia, S.C., shows Tharp, visibly shaken and almost terrified, taking a forearm shot from a Marine drill instructor.
In the Marines only five weeks, Tharp had written seven letters home telling his family he wanted out. His father, John Tharp, claims Jason had been singled out by drill instructors because he couldn't keep up with the rigorous basic training.
"I don’t know how they could treat my son the way we saw on that video," says Tharp. "He never hurt nobody. He'd do anything anybody asked him."
During last week's training, Tharp, seen on the WIS-TV video, at first refused to get into the water.
"He's just afraid because he is not able to do the swim correctly right now, and he just wants to leave and go home," said Staff Sgt. Anthony Davis on the Feb. 7 videotape.
After 20 minutes of trying to coax Tharp into the pool, the drill instructor turned physical in apparent violation of Marine Corps regulations — striking Tharp across the chest.
"That right there, where this Marine grabs the recruit, this is not how you treat recruits," said Eugene Fidell, the president of the National Institute of Military Justice, when NBC News showed him the video. "I mean, this is a wrongful touching. Basically, it's an assault."
Marine Corps officials say Tharp voluntarily entered the pool the next day, where he drowned during a 25-meter swim. Officials also say there's no early evidence of any misconduct by Marine instructors at the time Jason drowned, but the conduct caught on camera the day before raises questions about exactly what happened in that pool.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I saw this one on of the cable shows.....This kid probably had no business in the military but how can you drown in a pool where there should be instructors in the water surrounding these guys at all times..........plus that one DI did strike the guy....it wasn't all that bad but forbidden now in training.....
The hit was nothing. Letting this kid drown is what's gonna cost someone(s) their career and possibly freedom.
The Marine Corps is in the business of producing warriors. A recruit that doesn't know how to swim has no business even signing up. He should have washed out the first week or two (pardon the pun). I can understand the father being upset but he needs to understand that his son wasn't exactly joining the Peace Corps here.
"Letting this kid drown is what's gonna cost someone(s) their career and possibly freedom."
And I have no sympathy for that person because their actions cost this kid his life.
Serving in the marines is not for everyone and the deceased recruit was unsuited for military service. The drill sergant should have known that and arranged for a discharge. His actions were out of line.
If anyone remembers, there was a HUGE scandal many years ago (mid-60s?) where a DI marched his charges through some marshy terrain at night after he'd had a few too many and several recruits drowned. A retired Chesty Puller made a cameo in the DI's defense. This one sounds far less problematic, I mean how many Marines wanted to quit at some point during Boot. 80%? More? Heck, it's natural, it's human, but you overcome it.
25 meter swim?
I remember the drown proofing, with your hands tied and a
four foot piece of pipe strung around your neck for
25 minutes, is that what they are talking about?
The Drill Instructors should be prosecuted for manslaughter for negligence: A recruit died during TRAINING. This is only TRAINING people, if the recruit is not able to make the grade then send them home - but not in a coffin!
Recruits are typically home sick, de-moralized, vunerable, highly suggestive, etc. It is the job of the Marine DI to protect, mold and train this individual while in this state.
Pray for this recruit and his family.
Mid 50's.
"And I have no sympathy for that person because their actions cost this kid his life."
Let’s wait for all the facts to come in before we start assigning blame to anyone. Anytime water training of this type is conducted, trained personnel and equipment for reviving drown victims must be on site. Trainees frequently drown during training, are quickly revived and usually suffer no ill effects. All it takes is a lung full of water to drown a person, and if proper assistance is not quickly rendered, the person will die.
So, assuming all regulations were followed and medical personnel and equipment were on site, how did it come to pass that this young Marine drowned and could not be successfully resuscitated?
I saw much worse hazing than that when I went through Navy boot in 68'. They really didn't hurt him, just scared him.
I remember our swimming and drown-proofing courses for what happened to those who had trouble swimming. They kept poles by the pool and anytime one of these guys tried to make it to the edge they would push them back in. We had personnel standing by if someone started to drown for real. When we took the aircrew water survival course and had to release ourselves from an ejection seat underwater they had divers in the water. I can't imagine they let this kid drown because they know what kind of trouble this would cause.
"If anyone remembers, there was a HUGE scandal many years ago (mid-60s"
It was 1956, and it was "The Ribbon Creek Incident."
There is a decent book written about this by John Stevens III called Court-Martial At Parris Island.
I was in Parris Island for 17 weeks (I spent four weeks in PCP). I would say 15 out of those 17 weeks, I would have taken the first opportunity to get the heck out of there. The two weeks I spent on mess duty and on the rifle range were the only two somewhat tolerable weeks on that miserable island! I remember one night walking fire watch in my barracks at something like 2AM, with the rest of my platoon sleeping. I could look out the window and see the lights of the city, teasing me, across the water (Beaufort?). Never in my life did I so badly want to just run away. But I stuck it out and I'm glad I did!
Ironically I will be in South Carolina in a couple of weeks for the first time since boot camp back in 1981. I definitely plan to visit the island.
17 weeks on PI. My heart goes out to you.
I graduated Marine Corps Recruit Depot-San Diego 20 Aug 2004.
I also have some unique insight on this particular topic.
I am very saddened that the man died. It is tragic but in no way the Marine Corps fault (based on current evidence cited).
#1 Recruits have been known to die in boot camp. I remember during our Phase 2 (field training), the week before we executed "The Crucible" a recruit died during that grueling event. I have heard rumors about why, but it was not the DIs faults. Still, my company went through the Crucible with full gear and determination none-the-less (IE they did not mod it due to this tragedy).
#2 The week after the Crucible, we had our swim qual week. About 1/8 of the company could not swim and they were remediated and eventually passed. Believe me, if you cannot pass level 1 (CWS 4) then you do not belong in the Marine Corps. That is ridiculously easy. It consists of a short swim and treading water, all in cammies. You can even blow air into your blouse (top) and float effortlessly! I'm surprised the DI tried to coax him for 15 min! They would have just ITed us and then sent us back into the pool exhausted. Plus, you can always swim to the side of the pool and get our, ashamed.
#3 We had a recruit drown and get revived in our swim qual. It was no big deal
#4 I was about 1 second away from blacking out in swim qual level 2 (CWS 3). We had to jump off a high dive with LBVs, flak jacket, rubber rifle, and ALICE pack. The key was to release the quick release on our pack, use it to float, and then slowly swim backward with it supporting you. My release strap did not exist on one of the sides. So I was being pushed down on one side, but still managed to swim 95% of the way before I completely ran out of energy and breath (keep in mind, I had just pushed myself to the limit on the Crucible, so I had little physical weakness left). I kept struggling because I 1) knew the swim instructors will save you only at the absolute last minute and 2) believed the philosophy that when you F-up, someone else pays for it. There will be nobody to save you in a real combat zone, unless they risk their lives. So I resigned myself to death with no rescue in sight. The second before I would have to give up, a recruit (in my platoon) helped pull me to safety. I recovered in line to the bleachers.
I so wanted to become paralyzed by fear, and I did not have to redo that qual for my MOS (MP). I wanted to get it, however, but my DIs told me to forget it. Still, two days later they called a recruit name John Heinz for a re-trial of that swim class. This recruit was on Sick call or something, because he did not respond. So I went in his place (my name is Jon Highness). Sufficed to say, I was scared as F#$% but executed the trial easily (it was ridiculously easy when the pack comes off your back).
Early on in boot camp, I hated my drill instrctors (the green belts). Later, after being squad leader througout the Crucible (my first taste of leadership), and realizing that nothing can stop you but temptation, I lost that hatred and accepted their explanations for my their are so insanely hostile. Complacency kills, and your buddy will pay for your mistakes in the field. I pray to the Lord Jesus this man is well-received, but there was no excuse for his not accomplishing the swim qual mission. Nobody failed in our company and his level was very easy.
Do not judge the drill instructors/swim instructors by civilian standards. Instead, look at the situation from a Marine's eyes.
I hated that damn 'swimming' exercise..
I sunk like a rock, I'm big boned.
Every once in a while though something happens (called an accident) where the NCO's get a little too hard core and someone winds up hurt, unfortunatly for everyone concerned this resulted in a death. Its sad but it happens, the guy will be charged and possibly dismissed (not too sure how likely this is) and life will go on with this poor guy's story being used as a cautionary tale for future recruits and instructors alike.
But really if the senior NCO in charge didn't have enough discipline to keep an eye on his people, or let someone struggle a bit too long then he deserves to be charged and booted IMHO.
That incident you described damn near resulted in the complete elimination of the Marine Corps as a branch of the U.S. military. From what I've been told, it was the last in a series of disgraceful incidents that had members of Congress putting pressure on the Corps to clean up its act or get its line item in the defense budget slashed to zero.
All of you should note that this piece of krapTM "reporting" is by Jim Miklaszewski for PMSNBC. That should tell you all you need to know about the credibilty of any of the "information" in this article.
If Miklaszewski was standing up to his neck in water and stated that the water was wet, I'd pretty much discount 100% whatever he said and actually test the water myself just to make sure. Because I know for sure that he has his head so far up his lower alimentary tract that he wouldn't know if it was water- wet or not!
So don't go jumping to conclusions about anything written in this article until you confirm it by at least two verifiable, credible sources. And PMSNBC sure as hell ain't one of those.
I'm very sorry for the kid that drowned. But there has to be much more to this story than what $h!t for brains Miklaszewski states- much more
He's one of those self important, anti-military, anti-American "newsreaders" working for an anti-military, anti-American MSM snooze-media company. Don't buy anything this snake oil salesman tries to sell you.
really.....I had always though he was one of the fairer guys reporting ......I never noticed his politics as much as the others....that is my opinion........now about the drowing, I was listening also to retired General Trainor on this as well and what his folks were saying.....usually they get this stuff right from the military....can't see how they would fu** this up......don't flame me on Mick, I just don't see it.....I"ll wait to hear what others have to say since I've not heard anywhere else about it
I think you exaggerate.I saw the culprit,I believe it was Sgt.McKeon in Quantico in the late 1950's.Marine training is not for everyone.But very few regret having completed it.
I don't know. I thought the incident in question involved a bunch of recruits who drowned after their DI got drunk and had them go out in a tidal marsh in the middle of the night. Was this the incident you're referring to?
Congrats on making it through. Your attitude will get you much in life that others will miss or lose.
Stay with it.
A recruit drowned at the pool at MCRD San Diego in September of 1981. I was a runner at RTR during mess/maintenance week and saw the parade of witnesses, fellow recruits, being grilled by Colonel Gibson over what happened. Unfortunately it's happened before and it will no doubt happen again.
According to the rules [AFAIK], it's 300 words.
Miklaszewski at the Pentagon describing what happened.
At least one DI should go to jail. (my opinion)
M-ski says Pentagon brass are outraged.
To: Rennes Templar
Did I not snip enough or what?
No. Please try to limit the excerpt to three or four paragraphs at most. Thanks.
12 posted on 02/28/2004 8:14:26 PM PST by Admin Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies ]
I hope that the DIs involved in this incident are not railroaded out of political correctness. If they were negligient, the facts will show it. Otherwise, it might just be one of those unavoidable tragedies.
And I don't really think that its Political Correctness that will railroad the DI, my military experience tells me that even if the recruit died as a result of his own fault its still the responsibility of his superiors to look after him to make sure he didn't make a stupid decision.
Principles of Leadership # 3 and 5
#3 - Seek and accept responsibility Lead by example.
#5 - Know your soldiers and promote their welfare.
In this case the DI in charge was the superior. Likely the officer in charge will face disciplinary action as well for keeping him on staff after getting physically rough with the recruits.
With the chain of command, the work gets downloaded, the responsibility for failure or success gets uploaded.
When I was on the Drill Field, a practice that I never undertook was called "bones". (I seriously never did this because an exhausted recruit was useless to me and couldn’t train, the entire point of recruit training) According to the SOP, you could assign a recruit up to 2 hours of fire watch a night. The intent was to assign the recruit one two-hour shift, but some drill instructors read in to the SOP and would assign a recruit a 0100 to 0200 shift, then a 0300 to 0400 shift. The recruits were up out of the rack at 0500 to 0530 depending on the training schedule. In essence the recruit wouldn't have a chance to get any sleep after 0100.
Also, the recruit refused to train the previous day. I wouldn't be surprised if the drill instructor wore the kid out repeatedly on the quarterdeck, and then assigned bones to the kid. Add PT in the morning and swim qual, the kid may have been exhausted by the time swim qual came around and in his exhaustion swallowed a boatload of water in the pool and quickly drowned.
Again, this is speculation, but you get the point.
On another note, the Senior Drill Instructor in the film clip is an idiot and lousy hat. If a SDI needs to lay a hand on a recruit he doesn't know how to be a SDI plus to do it on film shows he has absolutely no situation awareness and I wonder what else goes on under his nose without his knowledge.
And before someone tells me he was overworked, I was a DI, SDI and a Series GySgt. I pulled the same duty and never did anything that stupid.
When I was a Series GySgt the DIs weren't at the pool either. The hats dropped the recruits off and let the instructors do their job. This hat looked like he was showing off to the swim instructors and not training recruits. And yes that happens. The swim instructors are DIs who are on quota at the pool for 6 months to train recruits. Of course they know other DIs and DIs are notorious for showing off to impress their friends.
Granted, a lot of this is speculation, but based on personal experience.
Mid 50's
I was a MCIWSS. I can't count the hundreds of drownings I prevented. A person can drown in a glass of water.
It's a huge leap to say a DI has criminal intent against a trainee. Because he earlier brusked the dude. For all we know he swallowed on purpose. I seriously doubt the three or four other Swim Instructors on deck and DIs are going to let the guy drown.
Leave it to the media to connect a bunch of illogical conclusions together for another sensational story of abuse in the military.
I finally left the USMC, because these kids are becoming untrainable and the pc is handcuffing the training.
It's simple. You volunteer to be a Marine. If you can't swim, then you are a dumbass to join. It's called survival of the fittest. What the hell does 'Marine' supposed to represent? uh water. If the guy wanted out, all he had to do is pee his rack every night, that seems to work.
Nothing is safe. I knew of at least 10 deaths a year for 6 years in a row. Its called assumption of risk. volunteer! Semper Fi
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